Sciascia and Montagna

[B.]

Re-read my last few posts. There is nothing about them being "subservient". Since the 1960s, under Vic Cotroni, they weren't a particularly subservient crew, despite their ongoing status as a Bonanno decina. Vitale's comment is pretty general and "splinter group" could mean a number of things. I trust his perspective on things, but his perspective is limited and everything outside of that is still a mystery.

At this point I feel like you're pointlessly argumentative and I don't have it in me to keep this up.

[Lupara]

Lupara, I heard the Tony Magi angle as well, but didnt know that he too had ties to haitian gang members and Ducarme Joseph. So thats a valid theory too.

It is regarded as the only valid theory by about anyone. Besides some circumstantial evidence that Montagna used street gangs for some jobs there is nothing that ties him to Nick, Jr.'s murder. It is however possible that Magi had approached some individuals in the Montreal Mafia to seek counsel beforehand, and I Imagine that he was told to go ahead. What is intriguing is that one of Magi's bodyguards shared a residence with a bodyguard of Tony Mucci, which made me suspect that Mucci could be involved, but he is still alive today and out in the open. If he was indeed involved he would have surely been killed by now.

[Lupara]

At this point I feel like you're pointlessly argumentative and I don't have it in me to keep this up.

You're not the only one who feels this way.

[B.]

Antimafia--
I remember around 2012 when it first came out that Sal Montagna was one of the new powers in Montreal, you talked about someone having seen cars with New York plates outside of the Cosenza Social Club a number of years before and seeing people nearby with New York accents (I want to say 2007 or so).

Do you remember posting about this and did you think the source of the rumor was at all reputable? I understand this is a very thin point of discussion, but it's something I've thought about when the subject comes up.

[toto]

There's another aspect to consider about Montagna and the moves he made in Montreal.

The connections between the group of John Gambino in New York and 'Ndrangheta in Calabria and Toronto. This connection was already well established more than 10 years ago with the visits even from Sicily to New York and Toronto - Filippo Casamento and Gianni Inzerillo went to New York and then Toronto. The connection is now well established between 'Ndrangheta and the Gambino family which was discovered in the New Bridge investigation by Reggio Calabria flying squad and the FBI in New York.

It's definitely suspicious as this link gets stronger a move is made against Rizzuto who is a little bit outside this particular relationship and maybe they thought they don't need him and so they give a green light to move against him.

A separate investigation in Castellammare del.Golfo a couple of years ago with some arrests there and it also was conducted there and in New York. I mention this only for the people who want to imagine there are no contacts between these groups.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Lupara, I heard the Tony Magi angle as well, but didnt know that he too had ties to haitian gang members and Ducarme Joseph. So thats a valid theory too.

It is regarded as the only valid theory by about anyone. Besides some circumstantial evidence that Montagna used street gangs for some jobs there is nothing that ties him to Nick, Jr.'s murder. It is however possible that Magi had approached some individuals in the Montreal Mafia to seek counsel beforehand, and I Imagine that he was told to go ahead. What is intriguing is that one of Magi's bodyguards shared a residence with a bodyguard of Tony Mucci, which made me suspect that Mucci could be involved, but he is still alive today and out in the open. If he was indeed involved he would have surely been killed by now.

I'm purposely argumentive despite the fact that I've once tried to invalidate any of you or B's points? You mentioned Tony Magi, I said I didn't know he had a link with the Haitians. And continued to say that you have a valid theory. How is that argumentive? I'm acknowledging you may be right without conceding and saying "you're right I'm wrong". Because at the end of the day, no one was charged therefore we don't know. Not to mention there's at least one book (Business Or Blood) which flat out implies Montagna may have been behind Nick Jr's death. Either is possible. But forgive me for not flat out believing your 100% correctness. I'm still not changing my opinion that either is possible.


Same goes for B. Vitale flat out says what he meant. "He's supposed to answer to Joe Massino, but they're their own splinter group.." But he could've meant anything? Thats possible, but judging by his own words it's unlikely that he "meant anything". Again, forgive me for not acknowledging your 100% correctness. However, I'm still going to say either is possible, you're free to hang on Cicales words, I however won't. And will continue to base my opinion, not only on Vitales words, but the multiple evidence of the Rizzutos not considering themselves linked to, subservient to, or merely a crew of the NY Bonannos. Like I've always said, I welcome being proven wrong, definitively. But so far, I have yet to see it.

Besides, I thought this was a discussion forum, not an overall agreement forum. So for the sake of discussion, I'll continue to discuss. A valid point raised on another forum, which I take no credit for is this. If Nicolo ultimately answered to NY, how come during the time period where Violi wanted to kill him, because Nicolo wasnt following the rules, not being submissive to him and Cotroni, and ultimately acting like he was a part of an entirely different family. How come when Violi went to NY to bitch to Natale Evola, Rusty Rastelli, and Mike Zaffarano, they didnt give him the okay to kill Nicolo? I mean, they all knew Nicolo was under their banner right? And they had to know that supposedly the Bonanno connection was wayyyy more important to Nicolo and his clan than to the connection to Sicilian families and bosses, right? So wouldn't that have made it a local matter? With Cotroni being the Montreal capo for the Bonannos, he should've had the natural given right to take out Nicolo and all those loyal to them, correct? I mean, as toto says, it is tradition right?. Yet after the Bonannos in NY blew Violi off, we know he then traveled all the way to Sicily to get the okay from Giuseppe Settecasi, whom with no desire to turn on his own, sent Violi back with a denial. Why did he have to do all of this, and why didnt the Bonannos give him the permission, if Nicolo ultimately believed in and followed NY and their protocol as opposed to Sicily?

[OlBlueEyesClub]

And where were the Bonannos when Desjardins had Montagna murdered? Who'd he get permission from in NY? Theres nothing to support that he even did get any permission from NY.

[Lupara]

Can you quote the statement in Business or Blood that implies that Montagna was behind Nicolo Jr.'s murder? You arrogantly called the information I provided of Tony Magi "a valid theory too", as if your theory was valid simply because you believed so while the evidence of Tony Magi is overwhelming compared to Montagna. It is the general consensus on these forums as well as among experts and journalists that Tony Magi ordered Nick, Jr. killed.

As for Nick Rizzuto, Sr., it is my personal believe that New York chose his side because he had far more to offer due to his dealings and connections than Violi.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Same goes for B. Vitale flat out says what he meant. "He's supposed to answer to Joe Massino, but they're their own splinter group.." But he could've meant anything? Thats possible, but judging by his own words it's unlikely that he "meant anything". Again, forgive me for not acknowledging your 100% correctness. However, I'm still going to say either is possible, you're free to hang on Cicales words, I however won't. And will continue to base my opinion, not only on Vitales words, but the multiple evidence of the Rizzutos not considering themselves linked to, subservient to, or merely a crew of the NY Bonannos. Like I've always said, I welcome being proven wrong, definitively. But so far, I have yet to see it.

Besides, I thought this was a discussion forum, not an overall agreement forum.

Couldnt agree with the above sentiment more.

OBEC has presented a rationale, evidential, patient, non aggressive contention to the board and in response has been met with derision that he's argumentative simply for failing to agree with this boards consensus.

This IS a board FOR discussion on contentious topics.

No ones forcing anyone to agree with OBEC's perspective and the sarcasm and snide remarks made by some at those who fail to agree with consensus is contrary to the spirit of what this board SHOULD be about.

I'd like to remind everyone no one KNOWS the truth we all learn more from contributions than shutting them down.

Peace out.

[Sol]

Same goes for B. Vitale flat out says what he meant. "He's supposed to answer to Joe Massino, but they're their own splinter group.." But he could've meant anything? Thats possible, but judging by his own words it's unlikely that he "meant anything". Again, forgive me for not acknowledging your 100% correctness. However, I'm still going to say either is possible, you're free to hang on Cicales words, I however won't. And will continue to base my opinion, not only on Vitales words, but the multiple evidence of the Rizzutos not considering themselves linked to, subservient to, or merely a crew of the NY Bonannos. Like I've always said, I welcome being proven wrong, definitively. But so far, I have yet to see it.

Besides, I thought this was a discussion forum, not an overall agreement forum.

Couldnt agree with the above sentiment more.

OBEC has presented a rationale, evidential, patient, non aggressive contention to the board and in response has been met with derision that he's argumentative simply for failing to agree with this boards consensus.

This IS a board FOR discussion on contentious topics.

No ones forcing anyone to agree with OBEC's perspective and the sarcasm and snide remarks made by some at those who fail to agree with consensus is contrary to the spirit of what this board SHOULD be about.

I'd like to remind everyone no one KNOWS the truth we all learn more from contributions than shutting them down.

Peace out.

Before I say anything I first want to say this is the best thread I've read in a long time. But I agree with SonnyBlackstein, OBEC is putting forth his opinion and theories in a rationale, evidential, patient, non aggressive way, and as OBEC put it, this is a discussion/debate forum not a overall agreement forum. Both B., and Lupara have put up great points to support their views/theories also, but I do not feel OBEC is just trying to stir the pot. I think his theories are valid and he puts forth good points to back up his opinions. No one should be offended by that, we should all be searching of the truth, and in order to find the truth we must all be willing to hear all sides. That's how I see it, I hope this thread continues because I'm enjoying it.......Soliai

[B.]

I have disagreements on here all the time with people I respect and I wouldn't want to push anyone away just for that. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on topics where we have limited knowledge... and that's exactly what we have here, limited knowledge. There are massive gaps in our knowledge when it comes to the relationship between Montreal and New York.

Cicale made some claims that there was still a relationship through Basciano's time as acting boss. Based on the history of these groups, we know they were formally part of the same organization and acknowledged each other as such for close to 50 years, if not longer (there is reason to believe the Bonannos were involved in Montreal earlier than the 1950s, but that info is very very thin). That doesn't mean the Montreal crew was subservient, as evidence points to them being given a high amount of independence as far back as the 1960s, and their remote location would have only cemented that from the time the crew was created. Cicale's comments were not grandiose at all and with Vito Rizzuto's reputation as a diplomat it's not too crazy to believe he might be willing to throw a relatively small amount of money to New York in order to honor their longtime, formal affiliation.

Somehow this is getting forced into this mold where "The Canadians get their marching orders from New York" which is a misinterpretation of the very open-ended points I am making. And that is what I consider pointlessly argumentative.

If that is an accurate recount of the steps Violi took to get permission to kill Nick Rizzuto and not simply an interpretation of circumstantial events, then it is potentially very telling about Rizzuto's connections, though another interpretation could be that his familial closeness to the Mannos (Sicilian members) was the reason for seeking permission, not necessarily his own membership in Sicily. Interesting either way. If there is info that explicitly says Rizzuto was a Sicilian mafia member def let me know, that would end the whole debate about him.

[B.]

And another reason I want to keep this topic focused on the period before Rizzuto's imprisonment is because of his diplomatic reputation.

When Vitale visited, Rizzuto could have easily gotten revenge for Sciascia. "You kill my paesan?! I kill you!" Instead, he had the crew treat him well and was respectfully noncommittal when Vitale pushed for him to accept the role of official captain, instead suggesting that his father Nick should become the captain.

Was he just going through the motions? Sure. Did having a title as Bonanno captain have any bearing on his place atop the Montreal criminal network? Doubtful. Is there value to keeping a channel to New York open? Absolutely.

This is all just speculation.

[HairyKnuckles]

- Mike Mancuso's father was close to Gambinos Funzie Sisca and Arnold Squitieri (who are brothers-in-law) and with them the night he was murdered by "a Bronx street thug." Anyone have any info on this? There was a "Tony Nose" Mancuso in the FBN book whose father was also named Michael. I assume this Tony is Mike Nose's father.

I assume this too. The Mancuso in the FBN book bears a striking resemblance to Mikey Nose. According to SSDI, Tony Mancuso died in September 1967 but it´s not verified.

Name: Anthony Mancuso
State of Issue: New York
Date of Birth: Monday December 24, 1923
Date of Death: September 1967
Est. Age at Death: 43 years, 8 months

If anyone have access to old NY Post or NY Times´articles, perhaps they can find something on the Tony Mancuso murder? And if so, please post it on here.

"Thanks. If true then Cicale must have been one of those Acting Capos while the Official Capo is still funtional and on the street that we have been seeing more and more of recently."

- My understanding is that Cicale was official captain of the crew once headed by Basciano, a seperate Bronx crew from DeFilippo´s.

HK, you know where Mancuso's are from? Squitieri is Neapolitan and I guess the same for Sisca. Maybe antiliar knows?

Sorry Toto I don´t. The last name Mancuso is extremely common throughout the whole of Italy, which I´m sure you know.

[toto]

Sorry Toto I don´t. The last name Mancuso is extremely common throughout the whole of Italy, which I´m sure you know.

I was wondering if these Mancuso's related to Serafino Mancuso somehow.

[antimafia]

Antimafia--
I remember around 2012 when it first came out that Sal Montagna was one of the new powers in Montreal, you talked about someone having seen cars with New York plates outside of the Cosenza Social Club a number of years before and seeing people nearby with New York accents (I want to say 2007 or so).

Do you remember posting about this and did you think the source of the rumor was at all reputable? I understand this is a very thin point of discussion, but it's something I've thought about when the subject comes up.

Based on my September 17, 2011 post on the Real Deal, part of which I've quoted below, the poster on the American Mafia Crime Board would have made the comments about New York licence plates and New Yorkers in 2005 or 2006.

6. Four theories were raised in a July 2010 article by organized-crime writer Pierre de Champlain about who wanted to decimate the Rizzuto clan. The fourth was that certain members of the Montreal Mafia wanted not only to clean house, but to dislodge the Rizzuto leadership and to re-establish ties with the Bonanno Family. Since, like many of you, I came to accept uncritically that the Rizzutos broke off from the Bonannos after the murder of Sciascia in 1998, I naturally questioned why Montreal Mafia members would want to relinquish their autonomy and turn back the clock to a time when they were (well-heeled) serfs indebted to their American masters. More recently though, I have been wondering what the extent of the break was. Sal Vitale believes the tribute from Montreal stopped in 1998 or 1999, but he isn't sure whether the traditional arrangement continued after that. About five or six years ago, on the American Mafia forum, one poster from Montreal mentioned recently seeing cars with New York licence plates in the parking lot of the Club Social Consenza, the Rizzuto headquarters, as well as hearing individuals speaking with some type of New York accent.

I provided a longer quote than I needed to because I very often am embarrassed at how in the past 1) I presented my opinions on a lot of these topics, and 2) I presented as "facts" what are actually opinions.

I wish I had taken a screen shot of the American Mafia poster's comments back in 2005 or 2006. I can't remember when Porrello switched from americanmafia.com to americanmafia2.com for the site of the new board. Back in 2005 and 2006, I may not have even been a member of the first board. The poster did not appear to me to be a regular poster--even though I may not have been a board member I lurked quite a bit. I remember laughing when the poster had written something along the lines of the New York guys talking funny; made me wonder whether he had ever heard a New York accent while watching a movie or a TV program.

Here is the link to Pierre de Champlain's French-language article from July 6, 2010:

http://fr.canoe.ca/infos/societe/archiv ... 44601.html