Sciascia and Montagna

[Angelo Santino]

Yeah, what B. said.

Seems like the official membership stayed at 20. The 2006 book said the same.

That being said, this unit in Montreal appears to have been originally Calabrese, Calabrian OC goes back to the 1900's and they were connected with American OC. It's interesting how American and Italian OC networks mingled with and influenced Canada. I credit Bonanno for everything that went on with the Rizzutos even after his death.

In the 1950's The Five Families were reknowned in the USA and Italy. Antonino Calderone referred to Gambino as the American King. That being said, Montreal wouldn't fold at the chance at being part of NY. But once that agreement was made, Sicilians began immigrating there and caused some friction. Interesting that Bonanno went the lengths that he did to form a pact with the Cotronis when he just could have "imported" members. I would guess that once the pipeline was successful that attracted Sicilian Mafiosi like the Rizzutos who earned their part in Montreal.

[B.]

Yeah, what B. said.

Seems like the official membership stayed at 20. The 2006 book said the same.

That being said, this unit in Montreal appears to have been originally Calabrese, Calabrian OC goes back to the 1900's and they were connected with American OC. It's interesting how American and Italian OC networks mingled with and influenced Canada. I credit Bonanno for everything that went on with the Rizzutos even after his death.

In the 1950's The Five Families were reknowned in the USA and Italy. Antonino Calderone referred to Gambino as the American King. That being said, Montreal wouldn't fold at the chance at being part of NY. But once that agreement was made, Sicilians began immigrating there and caused some friction. Interesting that Bonanno went the lengths that he did to form a pact with the Cotronis when he just could have "imported" members. I would guess that once the pipeline was successful that attracted Sicilian Mafiosi like the Rizzutos who earned their part in Montreal.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at earlier about the importance of NY at the time Montreal was brought in. You had little Angelo Bruno talking about his visit to Palermo where he was taken to dinner with dozens of bosses and their top men, all wanting to meet him. Joe Bonanno also describes the celebrity status he had in Sicily and I believe it. Montreal was a very different place from Sicily, but you can imagine what an opportunity it was to work with one of the NYC families.... an opportunity from the snarling lips of "that stinking specimen with the bald head and big nose" (to quote Magaddino on Galante).

That all changed, of course, and working with an NYC family doesn't have nearly the same prestige it once did (especially one with a CW boss and underboss), which is why we're even having this discussion. But much of the clout that laid the foundation for the modern Montreal crew was a result of their Bonanno affiliation. As much influence as the Cattolica Eraclea fellows had/have there, there are/were other Bonanno members in Montreal with their own histories. The killings in recent years are a testament to that, but sorting it out is for another discussion.

[toto]

- Salvatore Montagna visited Castellammare del.Golfo in 2006. Some news media went there and asked people which is his parents house but nobody said anything.

-Nino Giuffre mentioned mafiosi were coming from New York to CDG to "learn the trade" and CDG guys were going in New York to teach the young soldiers.

I wonder if these things are somehow connected or was it Montagna already making a move.

[B.]

I didn't know he had traveled there so recently. He grew up there so it could have been a personal visit, but the timing is interesting as that was around the time he became acting boss. Have to imagine he had some other connections or at least tried making them.

There is still a small but close contingent of Castellammarese in Brooklyn and Queens (especially on the cusp around Ridgewood). Montagna was no doubt familiar with some of these folks. One family in particular that is of interest to me are the Domingos, who the Montagna brothers knew at least socially.

[brianwellbrock]

It seems Montreal kept close their ties to which region and which city in Italy, that couple with NY coming in and taking claim means they havent had a chance to become their own. People forget that the NY mob is still capable of murder and the guys at the helm have done it before, so in a place like Canada where you can still have open warfare the people at the top in NY would have no qualms about bringing chaos up their.

It is hard to look past Motagna being deported and than all this shit happening and Christie is right, if Vito did thumb his nose than his dad and son are dead because of it. But like everyone says we might never know until someone who had a close personal relationship with the Rizzutos themselves flips. If any Montreal guy does anything connected with crime in NY than hopefully someone will be extradited and start talking.

[toto]

I didn't know he had traveled there so recently. He grew up there so it could have been a personal visit, but the timing is interesting as that was around the time he became acting boss. Have to imagine he had some other connections or at least tried making them.

There is still a small but close contingent of Castellammarese in Brooklyn and Queens (especially on the cusp around Ridgewood). Montagna was no doubt familiar with some of these folks. One family in particular that is of interest to me are the Domingos, who the Montagna brothers knew at least socially.

Francesco was acting boss of CDG family about 15 years ago. He has a life sentence for murder. But I don't which relatives are in New York. Another person who Montagna might have known is Mariano Asaro "u miricanu". Very dangerous guy, used to be acting boss of CDG. He lived some time in New York in the 1990s when he was on the lam.

[jimmyb]

I didn't know he had traveled there so recently. He grew up there so it could have been a personal visit, but the timing is interesting as that was around the time he became acting boss. Have to imagine he had some other connections or at least tried making them.

There is still a small but close contingent of Castellammarese in Brooklyn and Queens (especially on the cusp around Ridgewood). Montagna was no doubt familiar with some of these folks. One family in particular that is of interest to me are the Domingos, who the Montagna brothers knew at least socially.

Francesco was acting boss of CDG family about 15 years ago. He has a life sentence for murder. But I don't which relatives are in New York. Another person who Montagna might have known is Mariano Asaro "u miricanu". Very dangerous guy, used to be acting boss of CDG. He lived some time in New York in the 1990s when he was on the lam.

Good stuff Toto. I've heard about the Domingos in NY, but do we know if they're connected? Or is it simply a family relationship? I can't remember if it's Francesco Domingo or Calabro, but one of them is married to a Fiordilino and we know the Fiordilinos in NY were connected to family members in CDG. I'd have to look at my notes again, but I think there were Domingos in both the Bonanno and CDG organizations during 80s.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

I just can't look past Vitales testimony, which I posted last night with the Canada.com link. And the definitive lack of NY Bonannos being mentioned, indicted or charged in the big investigations on the Rizzutos before, and after Vito went away, and I've always looked it somewhat as, you want to know a families activity and relationships, just look at the indictments (Got that from Wise guy Lol). And I tried to update earlier post by getting access to the full trial transcripts from the United States v. Basciano/De Filippo trial, which seems to be where Vitales testimony of the Rizzutos being their own little splinter group comes from, but you have to pay for it. Its only 8 bucks, but I'm waiting for my bank to send me a new debit card in the mail. So I didn't have access to do that right now.


Lupara, I heard the Tony Magi angle as well, but didnt know that he too had ties to haitian gang members and Ducarme Joseph. So thats a valid theory too.


I can also agree that prior to the Rizzutos coming to Montreal, the Montreal clan seemed largely Calabrian, and that Galante & Bonanno did rely on those Calabrians, as they were the power at the time. I can also agree that we won't truly know for sure until someone from inside the Montreal Mafia, Sicilian or Calabrian, flips and tells all.

[jimmyb]

Back to the Montreal situation: I'm trying to sort this out. This thread inspired me to pick up Scarpo/Cicale book. I'm also reading "Business or Blood" right now. I've read "Six Family" and "Mafia Inc." and the DeStefano books about Massino and Basciano. And still I have difficult time figuring out the precise dynamic between Bonanno org and Montreal.

Anyhow, is it possible that the situation is fluid? So I'm wondering if this is a unique situation. We know that most families (orgs) outside of NY have their own idiosyncrasies that deviate from how the five families operate. Is it possible that Montreal is neither a fully independent organization nor an official crew in the Bonanno org, but something in between? In other words, it's like part of the "Bonanno Commonwealth." They operate independently for the most part, but for historical (and business) purposes, Rizzuto would still send tribute to Brooklyn. I'm talking about the post-Sciascia situation obviously.

Does this theory make sense?

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Like in Fallout New Vegas?

[B.]

One thing you can take from that FBI excerpt I posted earlier is that the Montreal crew was an independent, even aloof group long before the Cattolica Eraclea guys were on the scene. The crew up there was loyal to Joe Bonanno and according to the doc, Sicilian faction leader Greco refused to meet with the leadership in New York. Also according to the doc, Cotroni was informed that Montreal would have a "free hand" in its own administrative affairs following the removal of Joe Bonanno. The Bonannos weren't just the red-headed stepchild of the US mafia in the 2000s, but also in the 1960s through 1980s. Despite this, the Montreal crew under Cotroni remained members of the Bonanno organization who acknowledged the formalities of their membership.

Sciascia and the Rizzutos inherited the crew from Cotroni, the head of a massive and lucrative criminal network with international ties, who was given a "free hand" in running the crew without much NY involvement. So what we see is that Sciascia and the Rizzutos simply carried the same torch as Cotroni, doing their own thing except when it came to formalities and the occasional collaboration. The Rizzutos behavior in the 1990s and even early 2000s doesn't sound that far off from what had already been in place under Cotroni.

It would be helpful to know if Cotroni sent tribute to New York at Christmas and more about his relationship with NY. There are long periods of time where there was no known contact between Cotroni's group and the NY administration, yet we don't see people preaching that "Cotroni broke off into his own family" during those times even though it's apparent that Montreal was not happy with the removal of Joe Bonanno. Part of that is because it was long enough ago that we can now see the bigger picture, and the bigger picture shows us that Cotroni's Montreal crew were always an official Bonanno crew, independent or not. We haven't seen the bigger picture on the post-2000 era of Montreal yet, just a lot of confusion and warfare, so I'm not going to pretend I know what the official standing of the crew is. I just know that the Sciascia/Rizzuto era is not as different from the Cotroni era as people would have had you believe and that Cicale's statements about Montreal in the 2000s aren't far-fetched.

[toto]

I didn't know he had traveled there so recently. He grew up there so it could have been a personal visit, but the timing is interesting as that was around the time he became acting boss. Have to imagine he had some other connections or at least tried making them.

There is still a small but close contingent of Castellammarese in Brooklyn and Queens (especially on the cusp around Ridgewood). Montagna was no doubt familiar with some of these folks. One family in particular that is of interest to me are the Domingos, who the Montagna brothers knew at least socially.

Francesco was acting boss of CDG family about 15 years ago. He has a life sentence for murder. But I don't which relatives are in New York. Another person who Montagna might have known is Mariano Asaro "u miricanu". Very dangerous guy, used to be acting boss of CDG. He lived some time in New York in the 1990s when he was on the lam.

Good stuff Toto. I've heard about the Domingos in NY, but do we know if they're connected? Or is it simply a family relationship? I can't remember if it's Francesco Domingo or Calabro, but one of them is married to a Fiordilino and we know the Fiordilinos in NY were connected to family members in CDG. I'd have to look at my notes again, but I think there were Domingos in both the Bonanno and CDG organizations during 80s.

Rosa Fiordilino is married to Gioacchino Calabro used to be boss of CDG.
Antonella Maria Di Graziano is the wife of Francesco Domingo "Ciccio Tempesta".

In one investigation about 10 years ago many familiar names appeared, Domingo, Magaddino, Calabro and Saracino (for sure the Colombo ones are related to these).

The New York Domingos, could be some are made guys going back and forth but they could be associates.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Theres two sides to every coin. Cicale made his claims in a book, Vitale made his claims in court during testimony and cross-examination from US prosecutor, Greg Andres. Cicale also only mentions TWO instances of the Montreal guys sending cash to NY, one is Christmas and Basciano, the other is at Tony Urso's request, who knows what Urso said, at that time, I wouldnt be surprised if he pleaded broke. And I als wouldnt find it that far-fetched if Basciano had his holiday request answered simply because he was more liked. Also, Joe Renda for all intents and purposes was a low ranking soldier of the Montreal Mob, at least when Rizzuto was in charge. And he was sent to represent Montreal at, I'm assuming what was Arcuris funeral, like they couldnt send down a capo? Thats somewhat telling to me as well.

[B.]

Theres two sides to every coin. Cicale made his claims in a book, Vitale made his claims in court during testimony and cross-examination from US prosecutor, Greg Andres. Cicale also only mentions TWO instances of the Montreal guys sending cash to NY, one is Christmas and Basciano, the other is at Tony Urso's request, who knows what Urso said, at that time, I wouldnt be surprised if he pleaded broke. And I als wouldnt find it that far-fetched if Basciano had his holiday request answered simply because he was more liked. Also, Joe Renda for all intents and purposes was a low ranking soldier of the Montreal Mob, at least when Rizzuto was in charge. And he was sent to represent Montreal at, I'm assuming what was Arcuris funeral, like they couldnt send down a capo? Thats somewhat telling to me as well.

"Send down a capo".
There is only one Montreal capo, though. If that capo (or acting capo, as Rizzuto seems to have been designated) couldn't make it into the US, their only option would be to send a soldier. Also, what is your "low-ranking soldier" comment based on? Renda was a made member of the crew, seemingly already familiar with some NY members.

I agree that giving sworn testimony is a much different ballgame than writing a little pamphlet-length book with a blogger, though the only reason Vitale testified about Montreal is in relation to the Sciascia murder that other Bonanno leaders were charged with. There was no comparable case for Cicale, so really there was no reason for him to testify about Montreal. If we could get ahold of his general 302s that would tell us more.

And I'm not even really sure what argument you're trying to make at this point with Vitale and, well, everything else you're saying. That Montreal cut off all contact and ties to their family (the Bonannos)? That Montreal split off and declared themselves a new borgata? He didn't know anything about that and no other info has come that tells us either of those ideas is true. Feel free to dismiss Cicale's info, but even if he's full of shit, it doesn't magically make those other points true.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Theres two sides to every coin. Cicale made his claims in a book, Vitale made his claims in court during testimony and cross-examination from US prosecutor, Greg Andres. Cicale also only mentions TWO instances of the Montreal guys sending cash to NY, one is Christmas and Basciano, the other is at Tony Urso's request, who knows what Urso said, at that time, I wouldnt be surprised if he pleaded broke. And I als wouldnt find it that far-fetched if Basciano had his holiday request answered simply because he was more liked. Also, Joe Renda for all intents and purposes was a low ranking soldier of the Montreal Mob, at least when Rizzuto was in charge. And he was sent to represent Montreal at, I'm assuming what was Arcuris funeral, like they couldnt send down a capo? Thats somewhat telling to me as well.

"Send down a capo".
There is only one Montreal capo, though. If that capo (or acting capo, as Rizzuto seems to have been designated) couldn't make it into the US, their only option would be to send a soldier. Also, what is your "low-ranking soldier" comment based on? Renda was a made member of the crew, seemingly already familiar with some NY members.

I agree that giving sworn testimony is a much different ballgame than writing a little pamphlet-length book with a blogger, though the only reason Vitale testified about Montreal is in relation to the Sciascia murder that other Bonanno leaders were charged with. There was no comparable case for Cicale, so really there was no reason for him to testify about Montreal. If we could get ahold of his general 302s that would tell us more.

And I'm not even really sure what argument you're trying to make at this point with Vitale and, well, everything else you're saying. That Montreal cut off all contact and ties to their family (the Bonannos)? That Montreal split off and declared themselves a new borgata? He didn't know anything about that and no other info has come that tells us either of those ideas is true. Feel free to dismiss Cicale's info, but even if he's full of shit, it doesn't magically make those other points true.

It doesn't make them true, but it makes that side of the argument valid. Which is what I'm saying. I don't see how you can say you can't dismiss Cicale, yet at the same time be willing to dismiss Vitale. Who says quite clearly "he was supposed to answer to Joe Massino, but they're their own little splinter group". Splinter group by all intents and purposes of the word, means they broke apart. The fact that he says "...supposed to answer to Massino". Implies that at the very least, he wasn't answering to NY while Massino was in charge.


Like I said, theres two sides to every coin. And I just dont see how you can assume Cicale is the ultimate final verdict, yet disregard Vitale and what he said during a court trial. I'm not even dismissing Cicale, I just don't find him reliable, personally. But again, he only mentions two instances of funds being sent up to NY. And again, throughout all these investigations, on the Montreal Mob , if they were subservient to NY then they would undoubtedly have to send some of the profits of some of these rackets, and illegal activities to NY. Thus it would be somewhat clear if the money was traced going all the way to NY, making some NY Bonannos at the very least unindicted co-conspirators. Some wiretaps, phone calls would almost undoubtedly catch SOMEONE saying "this has to go to such and such in NY". Yet this is never the case, not in Project Colisee, or the two before that. And not in Project MASTIF & MAGOT either...Yet the Bonannos themselves were bombarded with state and federal investigations and the only time a Canadian name is mentioned and included, is a 20+ year old murder (at the time). I just dont see how that would be possible if the Rizzutos were subservient to NY.