Sciascia and Montagna

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Very true. I personally apologize for the idiot comment. The rest of that post stands.



Another thing difficult to explain in regards to Canada (think I've made my point on the Rizzutos breaking away from the Bonannos piece) is Giacomo Luppino supposedly being 'Ndrangheta, yet answering to a LCN boss and a Sicilian like Stefano Maggadino. And Paolo Violi, who's father was said to be an 'Ndrangheta boss I'm Italy, and Violi, who also had a record in his homeland since he was 16, first going to Canada and settling in Hamilton, where he's accused of killing a Natale Brigante, a fellow Calabrian, who stabbed him. The fight Violi claimed was over a woman, but according to Canadian Law Enforcement it was a settling of a vendetta, which he was ordered to carry out from back in Italy, and he too went on to answer to Cosa Nostra bosses.

[Lupara]

And I stand corrected, Vitale didn't say that about Paolo Renda, he meant Joe after all. The one who supported Montagna and ended up missing presumed dead after Vito was released from prison.

Vito was released in October, 2012.

And Renda went missing in May, of 2012.

I'm glad that I was two months off on this one, because I started to feel like a robot..

With that said, an article released in 2015 paints Vito as the main culprit behind Rendas disappearance.

I've read about any article on Montreal, but this I apparantly missed or forgot about, so do post it.

[antimafia]

So is it any surprise that the subject of the status of the Montreal Mafia is a contentious one that is also currently being discussed on the RD and Gangsters BB Net?

The use of the words "The Sixth Family" in the title of Lamothe and Humphreys's book was very likely intended to provoke. In my opinion, the subtitle was as provocative or even more so. Here's the subtitle for those who may not remember: The Collapse of the New York Mafia and the Rise of Vito Rizzuto.

Anyone on this forum could have asked and can still ask the very approachable Adrian Humphreys about why he and Lee Lamothe, insofar as they chose the book title and subtitle, chose the words they did. Anyone could have asked Humphreys how he or Lamothe or the both of them coined "The Sixth Family."

A while back ago I decided to do my own research rather than bother Adrian. The excerpt below is in relation to Humphreys's newspaper story about Rizzuto's being the only Canadian arrested in relation to the US sweep in January 2004 in which 27 people in New York were arrested. This article predates the release of the first edition of The Sixth Family book by about 2.5 years.

Source: Adrian Humphreys, with files from Graeme Hamilton. (2004, Jan 21). Arrest called 'biggest blow' to Canada's mob: National Post.

Excerpt:

The U.S. documents refer to Mr. Rizzuto as a Bonanno family soldier, a low-level Mafia rank that greatly under estimates his power and influence.

Numerous police sources say Mr. Rizzuto is now an extremely powerful mobster who has long controlled the underworld of Quebec and, in recent years, has taken control of Ontario, following the 1997 murder of Johnny "Pops" Papalia in Hamilton.

An undated RCMP intelligence report, intended for law enforcement use only but obtained by the Post, says that if the Rizzuto organization has secured Ontario, its power would eclipse that of any of the U.S. Mafia families.

Organized crime observers believe Ontario's Mafia is now largely answerable to the Rizzuto organization. In April, 2001, several men in Toronto said to be aligned with the Rizzuto group were arrested in a $200-million sports betting ring. It was seen as evidence of a large-scale incursion into Ontario's underworld by the Rizzuto crime family.

END OF EXCERPT
---------------------------

There is a lot of good information in this thread, as well as some intelligent back-and-forth despite the bickering. But if we are deviating from the original poster's intention for this thread, let's get back on topic. The extraneous discussion, which some posters feel is actually integral to the topic B. founded, could perhaps go in the appropriate existing threads; someone could also start a new thread if there isn't already one.

I still hope to contribute in this current topic by staying on topic.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

And I stand corrected, Vitale didn't say that about Paolo Renda, he meant Joe after all. The one who supported Montagna and ended up missing presumed dead after Vito was released from prison.

Vito was released in October, 2012.

And Renda went missing in May, of 2012.

I'm glad that I was two months off on this one, because I started to feel like a robot..

With that said, an article released in 2015 paints Vito as the main culprit behind Rendas disappearance.

I've read about any article on Montreal, but this I apparantly missed or forgot about, so do post it.

Was actually the book, Business Or Blood which more detailing implies Vito may been behind Rendas disappearance, my mistake.

But there was an article written of various businesses being firebombed and all of these businesses at the time of firebombings were under the control of the Rizzuto conspirators. One of Rendas properties are mentioned...


http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-n ... s-property



And heres the other article in question, I was referring to, reading through it again it doesn't really say much, just talks a lot about Rendas history.



http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.h ... t-the-case

[Angelo Santino]

Re. The Sixth Family, I'm glad BlueEyesClub brought up the updated release. I just assumed it was a chapter update at the end and not a chapter by chapter update.

But now there's a discrepancy. They have Vito clearly stating with the death of Sciascia that brought the Montreal Crew down to 19 members, this is in both versions. But the updated version contains Vito also saying (a few pages later) that they have 18-20 members and are their own "Small Family." Massino's response of: "I should have told you to just make him captain without any choice" and the "splinter group" stuff was all new passages not in the original '06 version.

Where did that come from? Because, as I see it- maybe I'm wrong- there wasn't anything new from Vitale/Massino from '06 to '14 to add to events from 1999 as it was already exhausted during the court testimony and FBI debriefings.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

As shown in the Vitale link I posted before, it comes from trial testimony, Vitale testified about this stuff in the 2007 trial of Patty D. I get what you're saying though, I have no clue why that stuff may have been left out of Vitales earlier debriefings and the book itself. Its possible some things may have been overlooked, or Vitale just didn't mention it. Prior to '07 there are no mentions of it by the feds at least. And the NY papers and journalists, same as the Canadian side, seem to paint Vitale's testimony during this trial as a sort of revelation.

[Lupara]

So Vitale did not recall that particular remark in his initial debriefings, but then a few years later added it to his testimony. That's peculiar to say the least.

[Angelo Santino]

So Vitale did not recall that particular remark in his initial debriefings, but then a few years later added it to his testimony. That's peculiar to say the least.

I can see now why some people still believe they are independent. But It's still two different narratives. The first version is definite: 19 members and a reluctant/vague/non-engaging Vito saying they are all 'brothers up here.' The second one is more in-your-face Vito "telling" Vitale the New Order: 18-20 members and that they are "their own Small Family."

If that's what Vito told the Bonannos then he has only himself to blame for his father and son's murders. That's not a Montreal/American Mafia or Sicilian Mafia thing, it's a thing. You don't break off. Joe Sodano in Jersey tried to finger fuck his way around the Natale administration and he met his demise as well. Granted Newark and Montreal are David and Goliath in terms of power, that changes nothing when it comes to protocol. But that's my own musings, we need primary sources to investigate further, and I'm not sure of the Source of this 'new material.' Be interesting to find out.

Has anyone read both the 2006 and 2014 versions and noticed these (or any other) differences?

Here's the thing: after the book came out in 2006, Capeci was getting emails from people "correcting" his Vito label as "soldier/acting captain." It drove people nuts since it was "unanimous" at the time that Vito was more Michael Corleone than Micheal even was and stood as the Godfather of Canada. But then the war happened and suddenly the Rizzutos seemed like a paper tiger and "general belief" has shifted back to the Rizzutos being a Bonanno outpost.

I kinda wonder- and I'm not calling the authors liars- but if this "elaboration" of the split perhaps was in response to people beginning to doubt the original 2006 version. Lee LaMothe used to post on these forums, Ed Scarpo currently does. With their "ear to the ground" they get a general idea of what their target audience wants and that may be why Cicale went into Canadian stuff and offered up what he knew/heard/whatever.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Vitale said it, that's definitive. And there's no proof, that Vitale never said it during his debriefings, that was just my guessing as yo why it wasn't initially in the Sixth Family the original version. The "19, Sciascias dead" comment is also in the updated version but I'm not sure if it's quoted as coming from Vito. Vitale also mentions two meetings with Vito at separate times in the book, or at least that's how Humphrey's & Lamothe write it. And I doubt the order to kill his father and son came from NY. I seriously doubt that personally. In Business & Blood, Montagna was trying to get Nicolo to step down, claiming he was too old, the authors claim this came from blackberry messages I think either from Montagna's phone or Colapelle's when he was sending messages back to Desjardins, basically "hes having problems with the old man" type stuff. And Nicolo was basically telling him to go fuck himself and he wasnt going anywhere. Theres also a pattern with Montagna. Business & Blood mentions that he was using Haitian gang members and Ducarme Joseph to shake down Rizzuto owned Cafes. We know black men, I presuming they were Haitian, were seen running from the scene of Nick Jr's murder. We know he tried to kill Desjardins, using black guys as well, presumably Haitians as well. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, but it wasn't a report of one black guy leaving near the scene of Nicolo's murder. There's a story of a guy spotted near his house stealing an ammo case and a baclava, and him giving the authorities a false name. And this guy later turned out to be a nephew of Vincenzo Di Maria. And Salvotore Calautti to this very day is still a top suspect in Nicolo's murder. That immediately breaks Montagnas pattern, and perhaps is the sign that Nicolos murder was ordered by someone else, perhaps done at the wishes of Montagna, perhaps one his former allies in De Vito or Desjardins, but I don't believe Montagna had a whole lot to do with Nicolos murder, other than requesting that it needed to be done in order to move along with his plans. Thats just my opinion.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

So Vitale did not recall that particular remark in his initial debriefings, but then a few years later added it to his testimony. That's peculiar to say the least.

I can see now why some people still believe they are independent. But It's still two different narratives. The first version is definite: 19 members and a reluctant/vague/non-engaging Vito saying they are all 'brothers up here.' The second one is more in-your-face Vito "telling" Vitale the New Order: 18-20 members and that they are "their own Small Family."

If that's what Vito told the Bonannos then he has only himself to blame for his father and son's murders. That's not a Montreal/American Mafia or Sicilian Mafia thing, it's a thing. You don't break off. Joe Sodano in Jersey tried to finger fuck his way around the Natale administration and he met his demise as well. Granted Newark and Montreal are David and Goliath in terms of power, that changes nothing when it comes to protocol. But that's my own musings, we need primary sources to investigate further, and I'm not sure of the Source of this 'new material.' Be interesting to find out.

Has anyone read both the 2006 and 2014 versions and noticed these (or any other) differences?

Here's the thing: after the book came out in 2006, Capeci was getting emails from people "correcting" his Vito label as "soldier/acting captain." It drove people nuts since it was "unanimous" at the time that Vito was more Michael Corleone than Micheal even was and stood as the Godfather of Canada. But then the war happened and suddenly the Rizzutos seemed like a paper tiger and "general belief" has shifted back to the Rizzutos being a Bonanno outpost.

I kinda wonder- and I'm not calling the authors liars- but if this "elaboration" of the split perhaps was in response to people beginning to doubt the original 2006 version. Lee LaMothe used to post on these forums, Ed Scarpo currently does. With their "ear to the ground" they get a general idea of what their target audience wants and that may be why Cicale went into Canadian stuff and offered up what he knew/heard/whatever.

That would have to mean LaMothe and Humphrey's simply made it up...They didn't. They're quoting direct testimony from Salvatore Vitale during the 2007 trial Of Patty DeFilipo, which took place after the books initial release. As shown in the earlier link I posted. This came from court transcripts. With that said you'd also have to assume that Vitale testified, commited perjury, all for the sake or Lamothe & Humphreys book and what their target audience wanted...Do you really believe this is plausible?

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Correction, Vitales testimony comes from the 05-06 trial of Massino/Basicano/De Filippo and all those other guys. Not from '07, De Filippo was charged in '07. During this trial Vitale testified, I'm trying to locate his original testimony, but in this document he admits to giving information about Vito Rizzuto & Montreal...

clip_now_20160106_112801.png

[Lupara]

The prime suspect of Nick, Jr.'s murder is believed to be Tony Magi, a business man involved in construction. The authors of Mafia Inc. strongly allude to him in the book's epilogue. They also specifically state that Montagna had nothing to do with it. They describe how the RCMP believes that a business man ordered Nick, Jr.'s death because he felt threatened by him. Magi happened to be in business with the Rizzutos for years. He also had close ties to haitan gang leader Ducarme Joseph and his lieutenant Lamartine Severe Paul, who are suspected to have been the shooters. Nick, Jr. was killed just outside of Magi's office. Ducarme Joseph and Lamartine Severe Paul are now dead and Magi is driving in an armored vehicle and has 24 hour protection. The evidence is quite overwhelming.

[toto]

- Mike Mancuso's father was close to Gambinos Funzie Sisca and Arnold Squitieri (who are brothers-in-law) and with them the night he was murdered by "a Bronx street thug." Anyone have any info on this? There was a "Tony Nose" Mancuso in the FBN book whose father was also named Michael. I assume this Tony is Mike Nose's father.

I assume this too. The Mancuso in the FBN book bears a striking resemblance to Mikey Nose. According to SSDI, Tony Mancuso died in September 1967 but it´s not verified.

Name: Anthony Mancuso
State of Issue: New York
Date of Birth: Monday December 24, 1923
Date of Death: September 1967
Est. Age at Death: 43 years, 8 months

If anyone have access to old NY Post or NY Times´articles, perhaps they can find something on the Tony Mancuso murder? And if so, please post it on here.

"Thanks. If true then Cicale must have been one of those Acting Capos while the Official Capo is still funtional and on the street that we have been seeing more and more of recently."

- My understanding is that Cicale was official captain of the crew once headed by Basciano, a seperate Bronx crew from DeFilippo´s.

HK, you know where Mancuso's are from? Squitieri is Neapolitan and I guess the same for Sisca. Maybe antiliar knows?

[B.]

There is a lot of good information in this thread, as well as some intelligent back-and-forth despite the bickering. But if we are deviating from the original poster's intention for this thread, let's get back on topic. The extraneous discussion, which some posters feel is actually integral to the topic B. founded, could perhaps go in the appropriate existing threads; someone could also start a new thread if there isn't already one.

I still hope to contribute in this current topic by staying on topic.

Thanks for saying that. I know it may be acting in vain to try to control the flow of discussion, but I want to keep it focused mainly on the period before Rizzuto was imprisoned since there was formal contact between the Bonanno administration and the Montreal crew during that time. After that, it's hard to say, only that Montagna was no doubt "representing" the Bonannos when he came.

I don't have any doubts about the Montreal crew being very independent with a long leash and even rogue to some degree not only after Sciascia's death, but also before. However, as of 2001 they recognized their status as Bonanno members with Vitale even if Vito was reluctant to take on any official responsibility.

SinatraClub - I am glad you pointed out what you feel is an inconsistency in Cicale's information, re: him saying Basciano elevated himself. I don't know that I would consider this an outright lie that invalidates anything else he said, though.

I do think there is something opportunistic about Cicale commenting on Montreal given what a hot topic it is, but what he says fits with what we know about the Montreal crew during that period -- that they were a highly independent, probably disgruntled group but still willing to go through with the formalities of being Bonanno members, i.e. giving the family's nominal underboss a reception in Montreal and passing tribute to the administration.

[B.]

Different time, different circumstances, but funny how this parallels our discussion here...