Sciascia and Montagna

[Angelo Santino]

I agree with Brian. Groups don't just "break off" at will or random, there is a formal procedure to it and it usually involves everyone coming to an agreement. It doesn't happen very often. Now let's say that Vito Rizzuto sat with down members of the Sicilian Mafia, 'Ndrangheta, Cartels, triads, yakuza, bikers etc and announced: "We Rizzutto's are breaking off from NY, we are now open for business!" Some of those members might say ok and make some business deals with Montreal but if next week NY had Rizzuto killed for going roque, NY would be considered within their rights for doing so, by Sicily, by the Calabrians, everyone.

[joeycigars]

Vito kills 3 captains for the Family then breaks off ties after after George gets killed on the family bosses order = Doesn't make a lot of sense IMO ....At best the relationship was fractured not broken

[brianwellbrock]

Maybe other people associated with the Rizzutos held their own stature in the underworld but officially were just associates of the Bonnano Family which wouldnt mean shit to them just technically speaking. Im sure if those guys did do business say in upstate NY they were quick to say they were with NY which technically speaking is correct.

[joeycigars]

Thanks guys for looking up more details about the Basciano acting boss promotion. Pretty sure I'm mixed up on that and I can't find anything to back up the bit about him elevating himself... was probably thinking about his "executive decisions" he made without Massino's approval, of which there were many.

"B."...The lawyer you where thinking of or speaking about was Thomas Lee , Vinny Basciano did kind of elevate himself as defacto acting by having Lee as his personal go between with the imprisoned Massino , Vinny told Massino that the needed latitude to make decisions and should be trusted in a prison taped conversation according to DeStefano's book about Vinny .And that the Murder of Randy was not discussed with the other 2 ruling Captains , Massino then went with Vinny all in ...


Testifying under tight security - Basciano awaits a second trial for plotting to whack a federal prosecutor - Lee recalled the exact moment Vinny Gorgeous learned that imprisoned Mafia chief Massino had chosen him as the family's acting boss.

It was January 2004, and the lawyer was delivering his first illegal message between the Bonanno leaders. Lee told Vinny Gorgeous that Massino, then detained on murder and racketeering charges, wanted him to "take the reins of the Bonanno crime family." The lawyer said he remembered Basciano's reaction very well.

"He was excited. He asked me to repeat several times the exact words that were used by Mr. Massino," said Lee, adding that Basciano expressed no reservations about assuming the "acting role as boss of the Bonanno crime family."

"I don't remember the exact words," said Lee, but they were "something to the effect, 'I love him. I won't let him down. Things aren't going to skip a beat with me out here.'"

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Cicale is also the one who states that Basicano made himself boss. He says that Massino respected the act and let him retain the title. And sources prove him wrong on that. Yet so many are willing to believe him about the Rizzuto & Bonanno ties based on preset ritual and tradition, when the Rizzutos and the Montreal Mafia itself has always been known to do a lot of things differently from American Cosa Nostra.


I also disagree with "The Bonannos made Vito Rizzuto", his ties to the old country, his lineage, is what made Vito Rizzuto. The guy was solely apart of a deal to build a bridge linking mainland Sicily to the Island of some sort. The Bonannos in no way we're apart of that deal. There isnt one Bonanno name mentioned in the Italian investigation on the matter. Not One. He had reach later on in his career that the Bonannos didnt have. Okay, he participated in the three capos murder, when he was a young man. Because he does that, that means he has to pledge fealty for life? I just dont agree with that. The situation with DeGroote, the casinos he had dibs in the Dominican Republic, again, not ONE Bonanno name is mentioned in any of the investigation reports on that. Hell, not ONE NY Bonanno is even named or mentioned in the Project Colisee operation. It isnt just Vitale, the proof is in the pudding, look at the investigations, is it a coincidence that Bonanno membres were absent from most of those? If Rizzuto was indeed still pledging loyalty to The Bonannos and kicking up, then surely, surely the RCMP wouldve bé en able to link them to the money which was being made, and they wouldve contactes ÚS Law Enforcement agències and these wouldve become joint investigations, and some NY Bonannos undoubtedly wouldve went down as well. Unless you believe the NY Bonannos were that well insulated. Which at those times, they werent. I've seen comments like "after Vito went to prison, then it could be possible" or along those lines, why only then? Why not before. Or if Vito went away, shouldn't and wouldn't the Bonanno ties become more important? Yet, they didnt. Nicolo wasnt kicking up to anyone in NY, he was collecting cash for he and Vito from HIS soldiers. Are we then suggesting "uh, Vito's gone, Bonanno ties evaporated"? I don't find that at all plausible. If the ties were meaningless after Vito was imprisoned, I'm inclined to believe they would've been meaningless to them much earlier and that Vito would've been one of the facilitators, which is what I believe.


Sorry guys, but I haven't seen anything put forth in this thread to make me change my opinion. And claims from Dominick Cicale certainly don't carry much weight with me, personally. But that's me, in no way am I forcing anyone to agree with me. I just find the lack of Bonanno names turning up in these investigations on the Rizzutos and the Montreal Mafia, quite telling.


The Rizzutos had investments in Saudi Arabia, China, Cuba, Belize, Venezuela, Italy, the DR and known links to South American Cartels. None of which The Bonannos had any parts of. So they weren't dependant on the Bonannos for anything, and the Bonannos certainly didn't make the Rizzutos into what they were. Again, if I'm wrong for not seeing anything substantial to support a "loyal soldiers" relationship between the Rizzutos and the Bonannos, then so be it. But I just don't see it. And its much more than Vitale, or authors, which reinforce my opinion, to me.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

I just don't see how you can just bypass what Salvatore Vitale said Vito's own words were to him, which were "we're our own little family, we have no bosses and that here we're all equal"

You should really dubble check the book first before you quote anything. In the Sixth Family, Rizzuto is indeed quoted as saying in seperate sentences that 'we're all equals' and 'we're are own little family', but he did not say that they didn't have a boss. The first quote is a fact, because all the made members in Montreal were equals. The second quote can have different interpretations. The way I see it, Montreal always was a family in its own right, which may very well have been what Rizzuto meant. Ofcourse, he may have also alluded to breaking off from New York. But then again, it was not up to him to make this decision for all the other members. Obviously, Rizzuto was also still affected by the murder of Sciascia and he probably knew, or at least suspected, that Massino and Vitale were behind it.

I really wish I was home right now, or had a way to get someone to bring the book to where I'm at. I had this discussion a few months ago on another forum in which I went back and did in fact double check the book. And its right at the part where its mentioned by Vitale that Vito turned down the caporegime recommendation. And Vito is INDEED quoted as saying "we have no bosses here".

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Cicale was a made Bonanno member, later a captain, who was close to one of the family's top members during this period. Like many cooperators, he has taken the opportunity to offer his opinion and experiences on events both inside and outside of his scope. If anyone has any evidence proving him wrong, please share it. If not, his points are up for discussion and this shouldn't be interpreted as "B believes everything Dom Cicale says", because that's not true. Just as bad as treating his word as gospel, in my opinion, is dismissing everything he says just because of the Scarpo connection or (worse) because it's "cool" to hate the guy on the boards. He is a high-ranking CW who was active on the streets and at high levels of the Bonanno family during the period we are discussing.

And in that same respect, Salvatore Vitale and his words shouldn't be acknowledged? I've seen toto say plain as day, Salvatore Vitale words doesn't prove anything, he was shelved. Uhm, he was the underboss in the time period he was testifying about. His words shouldnt be acknowledged and considered? Just Cicales whos been proven unreliable in the past?

[OlBlueEyesClub]

There are people here who jump around several boards happily puppeting rumors from anonymous board users, but turn around and try to draw a hard line against established cooperating informants and witnesses without having anything to back it up. If this is you, get your head checked.

People like who?

[toto]

Anybody who thinks that there is any debate about Montreal breaking off didnt understand Cosa Nostra. They made a fatal mistake to assume its the same as any organized crime. In fact Cosa Nostra is a secret sect and it is incidentally involved in crime. There is a culture and a rules about it and it is the thing which made it more dangerous and allowed to have a longer life than the other organizations.

Another aspect is to understand the formations of the families and the essence of what is a family - its not even the crime which means it exists but only its recognized to be so by other mafiosi. The families are decided by concensus by the other bosses. They do not emerge organically. There is a process to create and populate them.

Creating a family from thin air without a decision by the mafia commission creates stidda. This is a well known phenomenon in Agrigento where Rizzuto's are from and also even known in Calabria which Leonardo Messina described. But don't worry some guys decided that Cosa Nostra and 'Ndrangheta will deal with stiddari just for the sake of money.

If they deal like this it gives a green light for any capodecina to make his own family. Simple abc. But don't worry you can pretend to understand Cosa Nostra just because you assumed its like any organized crime.

The people making this kinds of stupid claims is on the same level as saying Carmine Agnello made his own family because he went in Cleveland and didn't answer. I'm sure nobody will even allow such a stupid discussion as valid but for Montreal because some guys who didn't understand a thing about Cosa Nostra said so.

If you want some words of Salvatore Vitale: Paolo Renda was "goodfellow in our family." But don't worry you can pretend he didnt say it because typical for guys like you make claims and then find a evidence for it. Only need to go back few pages and see you do this.

[Angelo Santino]

Without an inside informant we know so little about the inner workers of the Montreal Mafia. If one wanted to make the argument that they never had a making ceremony, no has any proof to counter that.

I enjoyed the Sixth Family too. But without any inside informants, they succeeded by piecing together what they could and tried to explain the facts as best as they can. In order for it not to sound like a college report they peppered it with their own narrative. "The Sixth Family" was coined by an author, no one referred to Montreal as such, however LaMothe and Humphreys found the title fitting to convey their overall narrative of this group. And back in 2006 it was fitting, make no mistake the Rizzuto family and their relatives had a major successful operation with international ties spanning 40/50 years. But I think the authors kinda let their imagination run wild. Chapter 1 describes Vito's place in the 3 captain hit as if the authors were in the room themselves, it reads like a suspense novel as do most of the chapters.

I would argue TSF is a Stylized Historical Narrative. It doesn't mean their wrong factually, but this build up of The Sixth family as some "impenetrable nucleus of blood-related clans who call the world its territory and a leader dying is like losing a spot of hair which will eventually grow over." That's some poetic shit. But I don't think the truth is so simple, I don't think Nick Rizzuto arrived in Montreal like Tony Montana stepping off the boat in a strut to build his empire. Reality rarely works that straightforward. I mention this because I see people "falling" into the LaMothe/Humphrey narrative a little too deep.

Canadian law enforcement has not been as effective as American law enforcement the past 50 years, they are now just starting to catch up. I would argue that may be part of the Rizzutos' success, I doubt they would have been as successful in America. There are still tight Italian colonies there who will not speak of the mafia. Newspapers mention arrests but don't give names. There are investigations and cases but it's nothing like the FBI/Rico. But it seems, hopefully, that Canada is catching up. That Montreal War was their version of Joe Valachi or the Sicilian Judge bombings in the 90's. A string of murders, bombings etc kinda demonstrate how Canadian law needs to catch up. That shit doesn't happen here with wiseguys because the USA would never allow But evidently they can still get away with it in Canada.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

When I think of Organized Crime, I think of Cosa Nostra. Nothing else. Pretty sure I understand it just fine after reading books solely based on the subject and internet research for past 4 or 5 years. I dont know everything about it, but I understand it just fine nee. The Rizzutos were the top men in Montreal, Vito headed La Milieu in Montreal, who was there to tell him what to do? No one. Instead of actually discussing or attempting to dispute anything I just said, you go and say how I dont understand Cosa Nostra. Youre right, Vitale did say that about Paolo Renda, but you neglect to mention how he also testified and stated exactly this, when he asked Vito how many soldiers they had down there, Vitale says this what Vito told him, "we're our own little family, there's about 18,20 of us, we stay by ourselves. Everybody respects everybody else"....Massino didn't even know there were up to 20 made guys in Montreal who we're with the Rizzutos, neither did Vitale. In response to this, Vitale went back to NY and reported to Massino, and these were his OWN words to Massino, "they have their own little splinter group".



Carry on.

[Angelo Santino]

When I think of Organized Crime, I think of Cosa Nostra. Nothing else. Pretty sure I understand it just fine after reading books solely based on the subject and internet research for past 4 or 5 years. I dont know everything about it, but I understand it just fine nee. The Rizzutos were the top men in Montreal, Vito headed La Milieu in Montreal, who was there to tell him what to do? No one. Instead of actually discussing or attempting to dispute anything I just said, you go and say how I dont understand Cosa Nostra. Youre right, Vitale did say that about Paolo Renda, but you neglect to mention how he also testified and stated exactly this, when he asked Vito how many soldiers they had down there, Vitale says this what Vito told him, "we're our own little family, there's about 18,20 of us, we stay by ourselves. Everybody respects everybody else"....Massino didn't even know there were up to 20 made guys in Montreal who we're with the Rizzutos, neither did Vitale. In response to this, Vitale went back to NY and reported to Massino, and these were his OWN words to Massino, "they have their own little splinter group".



Carry on.

I'm on page 256 and a few things: Rizzuto claims they are 19 now that Sciascia is dead. And I'm not seeing Vitale's quote regarding their own splinter group. But I have the original and not the updated one with a new chapter that came out years later. Do you know where Vitale states that?

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Without an inside informant we know so little about the inner workers of the Montreal Mafia. If one wanted to make the argument that they never had a making ceremony, no has any proof to counter that.

I enjoyed the Sixth Family too. But without any inside informants, they succeeded by piecing together what they could and tried to explain the facts as best as they can. In order for it not to sound like a college report they peppered it with their own narrative. "The Sixth Family" was coined by an author, no one referred to Montreal as such, however LaMothe and Humphreys found the title fitting to convey their overall narrative of this group. And back in 2006 it was fitting, make no mistake the Rizzuto family and their relatives had a major successful operation with international ties spanning 40/50 years. But I think the authors kinda let their imagination run wild. Chapter 1 describes Vito's place in the 3 captain hit as if the authors were in the room themselves, it reads like a suspense novel as do most of the chapters.

I would argue TSF is a Stylized Historical Narrative. It doesn't mean their wrong factually, but this build up of The Sixth family as some "impenetrable nucleus of blood-related clans who call the world its territory and a leader dying is like losing a spot of hair which will eventually grow over." That's some poetic shit. But I don't think the truth is so simple, I don't think Nick Rizzuto arrived in Montreal like Tony Montana stepping off the boat in a strut to build his empire. Reality rarely works that straightforward. I mention this because I see people "falling" into the LaMothe/Humphrey narrative a little too deep.

Canadian law enforcement has not been as effective as American law enforcement the past 50 years, they are now just starting to catch up. I would argue that may be part of the Rizzutos' success, I doubt they would have been as successful in America. There are still tight Italian colonies there who will not speak of the mafia. Newspapers mention arrests but don't give names. There are investigations and cases but it's nothing like the FBI/Rico. But it seems, hopefully, that Canada is catching up. That Montreal War was their version of Joe Valachi or the Sicilian Judge bombings in the 90's. A string of murders, bombings etc kinda demonstrate how Canadian law needs to catch up. That shit doesn't happen here with wiseguys because the USA would never allow But evidently they can still get away with it in Canada.

Agreed. Which is why I'm having a hard time understanding the double standards going on here. In all respects, without inside informants we dont know the inner workings of the Rizzutos and The Montreal Mafia. So why does it seem that its okay for the majority to write off one side and simply believe the other? Tradition? The rules? Violi wanted Nicolo dead because he didnt follow the rules, he snubbed his nose at the tradition which was in place in Montreal and sided with it when it benefitted him. We know this. And Violi wanted to kill him because of it. So why is it so hard for some to just say, "well yeah, Nicolo nor Vito were the typical mafiosi, so anything is possible"? What saved Nicolos life was the fact that he had respected men willing to step in and speak on his behalf, like Giuseppe Settecasi. Also his links to Agrigento mafia families and like the Cuntrera/Caruana's and their open arms/open home approach toward him and his family, also kept him alive, as Nicolo stayed in Venezuela most of the time and out of Montreal (not saying he didnt occasionally travel there still, by the time Violi heard about it, Nicolo was already back in Venezuela) until Violi himself fucked up bad, and Nicolo developed his own resources to act and act without repercussions.


I'm aware "The Sixth Family" was a literature invention. And I think informant testimony should be accounted for, Vitale and Cicale. Not just one or the other. I personally just don't buy Cicale and I've stated why. But I'm just not understanding the arguments being put forth by the majority in this thread and the double standards. We don't know until bugs are public or an informant from within, comes about. Yet Cicale and his words are being put forth as more reliable then a person like Vitales. I don't get it.

And when you say this, and stand by your opinion, you're a fanboy or listen to anonymous people on other forums? When that's actually the farthest thing from the truth.



And I have the updated version and I don't have the book in front of me. When I get home, I'll be sure to let everyone know. I'll take screenshots just to make everyone feel better...But as of now I'm telling you FOR A FACT, Vitale went back and told Massino "they have their own little splinter group". FOR A FACT.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

And he even said it in court when asked by Greg Andres. This was released via court documents and here's the article to support it....




http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/sto ... d85d974c32



"Who did he report to?" asked Greg Andres, The US prosecutor.


"He was supposed to report to Joe Massino, but they have their own little splinter group." Vitale said.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

In the almighty words of toto, "for anyone who doesn't understand Cosa Nostra, or organized crime", Splinter group means they broke off. Hence the name "Splinter group", you know, like how a splinter breaks off a piece of wood.