Sciascia and Montagna

[johnny_scootch]

Gentile was made in Philadelphia in 1904 if I remember correctly. Though he did transfer to a Sicilian family at some point.

[HairyKnuckles]

Didn't know I posted a Mafia wiki link. But noticed it's the first one on the Google link I posted. I'm aware of how Cosa Nostra itself started, and how those who immigrated whom were members brought over the organization and its methology to the states and elsewhere, but I could be wrong, but isn't it true that some of those guys started different groups for instance, The Black Hand? I used to be of the belief that The Black Hand & The Mafia was one and the same, but I've seen that disproven often and was of a different opinion. We also have sources like Nicola Gentile who say he belonged to Onorata Societa in Sicily, and I think he claimed this for the rest of his days, but he also alludes to Cosa Nostra as in "Our Thing" being started in America and the two being different and not the same. And like I said before, theres Valachi who makes the distinction between the two. And then you have the various authors, like Sewlyn Raab to name one who differentiates the two in the Five Families book.

There may have been some black handers who continued their criminal careers with the Mafia. But there is not enough evidence to cement the theory that the black handers were originally Mafia. To me, the black handers seems to have been local black mailers who took the opportunity to make a fast buck. There is no evidence of a black hand organization.

There is a distinction of the two Mafias in the US and Sicily. But they both came from the same womb.

All these names like the Mafia, Onorata Societa, Cosa Nostra etc are all metephors. Being an illegal organization, they didn´t name their sociaty or their way of life. There was never a formal name to it. At least not back in the day. All that came later, when informants and media tried to explain something that is very hard to explain. Different guys in the Mafia used their own chosen metaphors. If you´ve read Bonanno, which you seem to allude to judging by your previous posts, you should know this.

[Angelo Santino]

Our next project involves The Black Hand and will explain the whole thing/phenomenon/crime wave and how that connected/intersected with the Mafia/LCN/whatever. It's years of research, thousands of dollars in travel and source acquisitions and I've even gotten relatives to share stories and provide some interesting tidbits... I don't know when we'll be done but we're currently looking at two book projects to explain it all.

As far as Bonanno goes, I thought it was pretty clear in the book that he wasn't made until a certain point in the USA, if he wasn't he wouldn't have needed Maranzano to settle a dispute he had with Sabella's brother in BK.

As for their being "two mafias", today it's a very grey area. Cafaro claimed the Genovese's don't recognize 'zips' whereas the DeCavalcante's seem to have no issue. It all goes back to personal affiliations. Members today don't travel the USA going from one Italian colony to the next, back in the 1910's it was rampant which lead to a more cohesive mafia network. But today? Does anyone think that Sarno or whoever is whoever in Chicago personally knows Cefalu or that these cities update each other on their administrations? You still have that with the east coast due to proximity but it's nothing like we seen since the 1980's and that was a far cry from the 1950's. In the 1930's immigration between the Americas and Italy slowed to a crawl due to political reform. Connections withered and eventually died but both modus operandi's continued. The Mafia is a not geared to "take over" any racket particularly, they just bring in criminals of the era, in the 1900's it was extortion, 20's bootlegging, 30's gambling and so forth. But their hierarchies have changed very little. The utilization of certain ranks could be argued an Americanization or just a response to evolving law enforcement.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Didn't know I posted a Mafia wiki link. But noticed it's the first one on the Google link I posted. I'm aware of how Cosa Nostra itself started, and how those who immigrated whom were members brought over the organization and its methology to the states and elsewhere, but I could be wrong, but isn't it true that some of those guys started different groups for instance, The Black Hand? I used to be of the belief that The Black Hand & The Mafia was one and the same, but I've seen that disproven often and was of a different opinion. We also have sources like Nicola Gentile who say he belonged to Onorata Societa in Sicily, and I think he claimed this for the rest of his days, but he also alludes to Cosa Nostra as in "Our Thing" being started in America and the two being different and not the same. And like I said before, theres Valachi who makes the distinction between the two. And then you have the various authors, like Sewlyn Raab to name one who differentiates the two in the Five Families book.

There may have been some black handers who continued their criminal careers with the Mafia. But there is not enough evidence to cement the theory that the black handers were originally Mafia. To me, the black handers seems to have been local black mailers who took the opportunity to make a fast buck. There is no evidence of a black hand organization.

There is a distinction of the two Mafias in the US and Sicily. But they both came from the same womb.

All these names like the Mafia, Onorata Societa, Cosa Nostra etc are all metephors. Being an illegal organization, they didn´t name their sociaty or their way of life. There was never a formal name to it. At least not back in the day. All that came later, when informants and media tried to explain something that is very hard to explain. Different guys in the Mafia used their own chosen metaphors. If you´ve read Bonanno, which you seem to allude to judging by your previous posts, you should know this.

I get what you're saying. I think like Christie said, its a real grey area, but even then, using Bonannos book as a sole example here, there seemed to be a difference, if not in organization then at the very least, in how they operated. Numerous times throughout the book, Bonanno refers to some guys not being true "men of honour" or following the ways, Lucky Luciano is one of these guys he refers to, while he does overall admit to liking Lucky, he says he never followed the old ways and was among this new breed of American Mafiosi who didn't always follow the Sicilian ways and rules, he mentions Luciano and his fondness of working with Jews as an example of this. And he distinctly differentiates himself, Profaci, Maggadino & Magliocco as conservatives, in tune with the old ways from the old country and how things should be done, when compared to Gambino, and Lucchese. But like I said , Bonanno may have just been referring to things in an operational sense. And as I've always acknowledged the roots were the same and originally they were intertwined. But Cosa Nostra as we've come to know today, I think is strictly an American thing, again I'm confused as to why if they were always one and the same back then, why would guys need to transfer from one to the other? Yet at the same time, I don't think when Lucky was deported that he became an member of some Sicilian family, or the Camorra because he settled in Naples. he was still an American Crime Boss and an American Mafiosi. Same for Dominic Roberto, he remained a member of The Outfit. And they were recognized by their Sicilian counterparts as "Friends". I think only in the case of Frank "Three Fingers" Coppola, who according to some sources, actually went on to lead a Sicilian family at one point. And if that's true, I wonder how that all happened.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Great thread.

Appreciate all contributions.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Not saying this proves anything one way or the other, but it should be said that Bonanno had an arrest warrant out for him by Cesare Mori for Mafia association at the time of him entering the US for the second time.

[Lupara]

Association does not mean membership.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Which is why I said, it doesn't prove anything one way or another. However in most cases, with those cases in Italy, the charged have been made men. His cousin, Peter was issued the same arrest warrant for Mafia association. To this day, made men are being charged and convicted on Mafia Association. Most notably Bernardo Provenzano, one of the three charges he was convicted of was Mafia Association, and he was a boss.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Also were guys not often "born" into the various Mafia families in the old country, if their family was the pre-dominant family of the town, like the Maggadino-Bonanno's were? I don't recall Bonanno himself ever mentioning him going through a making ceremony in NY. He just says he entered the country and began working under Cola Schiro with one of his uncles and that he quickly began climbing the ranks. I question would he have been able to so quickly and easily ascend if he weren't being recognized for his stature or lineage back in Castellamare Del Golfo.

[toto]

Mafia association law used nowadays is from after the murder of Pio La Torre and Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa in 1982. The law from the fascist times defined organized crime in a more loose way.

Anyway it doesn't change a thing about Montreal being a decina of the Bonanno family and never refusing the demand of the boss as claimed by some people. That is what this thead is about.

A suggestion: maybe make another thread if you want to make claims and then try to find evidence to prove them.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Mafia association law used nowadays is from after the murder of Pio La Torre and Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa in 1982. The law from the fascist times defined organized crime in a more loose way.

Anyway it doesn't change a thing about Montreal being a decina of the Bonanno family and never refusing the demand of the boss as claimed by some people. That is what this thead is about.

A suggestion: maybe make another thread if you want to make claims and then try to find evidence to prove them.

What claims am I making? I'm trying to figure something out and get to the bottom of it. As it's a confusing matter. So far it's led to some pretty good discussion. And back then, it wasnt necessarily defined in a more loose way either, at it was specifically used by Mussolini to crack down on mafiosi and the influence they had within the government.


As far as the Montreal/Bonanno situation goes, numerous sources support the claim of Montreal actually refusing the demand of a Bonanno boss. Thats not a claim I'm making, thats a claim thats been made by some reliable people like informants, Vitale being one of them. Like I said, so far I've only seen you mention Cicale and what he said, as the proofs that Montreal continued to pay and recognize themselves as Bonannos. But in that same book, as I said before, the author, who's never been truly reliable himself mind you, plainly states that at the time of Rizzuto, Vito was the boss of his own crime family. So which one is it? Because even that source has conflicting information. I dont think thats either of our faults, but I still stand by my opinion but am open to being proved otherwise.

[johnny_scootch]

I don't recall Bonanno himself ever mentioning him going through a making ceremony in NY. He just says he entered the country and began working under Cola Schiro with one of his uncles and that he quickly began climbing the ranks. I question would he have been able to so quickly and easily ascend if he weren't being recognized for his stature or lineage back in Castellamare Del Golfo.

He did mention his making ceremony briefly and said something to the effect of going to a house filled with many important men from his neighborhood and they all kissed him on the cheek. Him and Maranzano looked at each other and he understood that to mean he was now a member of the Castellamare Family in Brooklyn.

[SonnyBlackstein]

@toto.

Whether Montreal is part of the Bonannos is a contentious issue. Both sides have valid reasons for their respective positions.

That the debate is closed or olblueeyes shouldn't be asserting his position, posing legitimate questions is contrary to the spirit of this forum.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

I don't recall Bonanno himself ever mentioning him going through a making ceremony in NY. He just says he entered the country and began working under Cola Schiro with one of his uncles and that he quickly began climbing the ranks. I question would he have been able to so quickly and easily ascend if he weren't being recognized for his stature or lineage back in Castellamare Del Golfo.

He did mention his making ceremony briefly and said something to the effect of going to a house filled with many important men from his neighborhood and they all kissed him on the cheek. Him and Maranzano looked at each other and he understood that to mean he was now a member of the Castellamare Family in Brooklyn.

Oh, wow...okay then. If that's what he refers to as a making ceremony.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Are you certain Bonanno mentions this in his book? I know he does mention coming in and being under Nicola Schiro where he claims he proceeded to rapidly climb the ranks. How can he climb the ranks and then be formally made after the fact? I know Bonanno does say a few questionable things about himself and others in his book though.