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toto wrote:Vitale's testimony doesn't support anything. He was shelved at that time.
toto wrote:Vitale's testimony doesn't support anything. He was shelved at that time. The points you mention have been proved wrong in this thread. As I mentioned before nobody who understands Cosa Nostra believed this silly story of sixth family and disobedience to the boss. Cosa Nostra has its own politics and "culture" and this is why you don't find this kind of "I don't answer". The only way to not answer is to kill the boss. It's basic.
Vito Rizzuto and Montreal decina had a vital role in a chain between Sicily and Calabria and Toronto and New York. That's why they can give $100k at Christmas. Not from Montreal local rackets. The Montagna story is completely believeable.
If they break away or disobey they lose the authority to act in this chain. There's no need to explain why its the case. It is obvious to anybody who understands Cosa Nostra.
Lets see how well you understand.OlBlueEyesClub wrote: I understand Cosa Nostra just fine.
Who are they? Names?OlBlueEyesClub wrote: However I also understand that certain members of the Rizzutos were previously acknowledged as made men in Sicily,
toto wrote:Lets see how well you understand.OlBlueEyesClub wrote: I understand Cosa Nostra just fine.
Who are they? Names?OlBlueEyesClub wrote: However I also understand that certain members of the Rizzutos were previously acknowledged as made men in Sicily,
And which is the nice boss in Sicily who will allow his men to have another boss elsewhere?
And who is the nice mafioso who wants to pay money to two bosses instead of one?
Is there any evidence to back up any of the Montreal crew members having been made in Sicily? I have only seen people assume it and give "...well they must be!" sort of answers. At the time they came to Canada and through the majority of their time there, the value of being affiliated with an NYC family was much more important than being independent. The Cotronis were as much a "Sixth Family" as the Rizzutos, but at the end of the day they were made members of the Bonanno family and understood protocol. The Cotronis were even one of the few crews that stayed completely loyal to Joe Bonanno until the end. I don't know the true story of what happened with the Rizzutos in the 2000s, but like the Cotronis they were made into the Bonannos and understood protocol (whether they chose to follow it or not).OlBlueEyesClub wrote: You're pretty serious about this huh? Well anyway, Nicolo Rizzuto was a man of honor in Sicily, under the Mannos. The Caruana-Cuntrera's were their own Sicilian Mafia family. Cesare Bonventre, not a Rizzuto but he too was a man of honour in Sicily, brought to NY by Carmine Galante and was under the Bonanno banner. Salvatore Catalano a made man in Sicily, this was even one of the reported issues with his time as acting boss, as some felt the rule should be followed that a man can't be an inductee of two families, yet technically he was. Domenico Manno, also a man of honor under the Manno Family of Agrigento. Calogero Renda. The Cherry Hill Gambinos, The Inzerillos. There are numerous examples of men being men of honor in Sicily, prior to coming to the States and working under one the Five Families. John Stanfa, another man of honor from Sicily who came to the States and rose to become boss of the Philadelphia Mafia. Joe Bonanno himself, according to his own words was a man of honor from Sicily, yet the boss of an American Cosa Nostra family. Not to mention the Sicilian Mafia & American Cosa Nostra were never the same entity.
I have a lot of respect for those two authors and they have a wealth of info in their book(s). But they also get some things wrong throughout the book, especially regarding the Bonanno family, or they didn't give clear sources about some things (i.e. Rizzuto's induction into the Cattolica Eraclea family). Nick Rizzuto was a Bonanno soldier when he was in Canada, and if he was made into the Cattolica Eraclea family before that, he had transferred to the Bonannos because the Bonanno affiliation was more significant in Montreal than the international influence of the tiny Cattolica Eraclea family.OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Lamothe & Humphreys claim Nicolo was inducted into the Manno Family by Antonino Manno shortly before he married his daughter Libertina. The Caruana-Cuntreras were members of the Siculiana clan. But they were based mainly in Venezuela. It can be argued that it was only Agostino who was a Bonanno. They provide well researched sources for all the claims they make and I have little reason to doubt them.
I don't remember dual membership being the issue anywhere I've read about it. Apparently his English was an issue and there was also resentment in the Bonanno family about zips taking over. I don't know if it's been 100% confirmed what his title was, either... he may have been acting boss like some have said, but he may have also been "just" acting underboss. In Donnie Brasco he is ID'd by Lefty as "street boss of the Zips", which could be interpreted a few different ways.Literally every source I've seen on Salvatore "Toto" Catalano say he was made in Sicily and sent to the states by his Sicilian bosses to make drug connections with American families. The Cicale book that seems to be being used as "proof " by some in this thread, state this as well. And again, numerous Bonanno informants and Joe Pistone claim this was one of the gripes on Catalanos short time as acting boss, he was a member of two organizations . You may be right in regards to Bonventre, but again, I've read more than once that he and Baldo Amato were made men in Sicily.
Can you find the page on that? Some of us on here have had an ongoing discussion on when he was made in the US (he only gives a general timeframe), and somehow we've all overlooked this bit you're talking about...Joe Bonanno DEFINITELY says he was a man of honour in Castellamare Del Golfo in his autobiography. He says his father died and his uncle, the Maggadino, sponsored his membership. He also says it again when he introduces Maranzano to the book and says it's one of the reasons Maranzano took a liking to him.
He was associated with them while in the US but not a member. Leonetti for one claims that the Philly family had a beef with Rosario Gambino and Scarfo mentioned it to the Gambino leadership, who confirmed that he was not a Gambino member and had limited control over him, but I believe they said they'd do their best.Rosario Gambino was recognized by law enforcement and the Narcotics Bureau as a member of the Gambinos as well as a recognized made man in Sicily.
The US mob started as a satellite of the Sicilian mafia in the new world. As it evolved, the split widened and they made new rules that set them apart further. Members of both groups could still be introduced to one another as "friends" in both Sicily and the US. They are definitely different organizations with different ruling bodies, but it is still the same basic organization and it's still understood that the US mob was born from the Sicilian mob.I think we'd be grasping at straws to sit and argue that LCN & The Sicilian Mafia are the same. They have the same, deep seated roots , but to say their the same organization, in my opinion is false. If that were the case thered be no reason to argue any of this, as theyd be one in the same, it wouldn't matter who was made with who, as theyd be the same organization. Not only that but we've had numerous informants from the 50's onward that have specifically said they were different organizations, Valachi being the first.
He may have been. But back in those days (1950s and before the 1950s), made guys who came to America were recognized by the American bosses if they were allowed to change their memberships by the Sicilian bosses. Once they joined the American Families, their positions with the Sicilian Families were probably undone. Some other examples of this were Giuseppe Buccellato, who came to America in 1959 and the Spitaleris (father and son) who also arrived to America in 1959. However, this practise ceased to function sometime afterwards probably because the old time American bosses like Bonanno and Gambino lost their links to their Sicilian counterparts. The so called zips who came to America later, the ones who flooded the US with heroin, were sent to America by their Sicilian bosses. They weren´t brought over by Galante.You're pretty serious about this huh? Well anyway, Nicolo Rizzuto was a man of honor in Sicily, under the Mannos
Cosa Nostra, the organization, started in Sicily and was brought over to the US with the immigration waves. The American Cosa Nostra of today is an outgrowth and an evolution of the original Sicilian Cosa Nostra.American Cosa Nostra started in America, not Sicily.
That is what I think was the case with the elder Rizzuto. I think there was too little time for him to be made in Canada between the time he arrived there (1954) and the time that the books were closed (1957). Not to mention that the Rizzutos didn't immediately settle in Montreal. And I also doubt that Cotroni and Bonanno would've made an exception of him. Rizzuto's father-in-law and boss of Cattolica Eraclea, Antonino Manno, followed him to Canada shortly after. So I assume someone else took over in Sicily. Then there's also the case with Giuseppe Settecasi coming to Montreal to mediate in the conflict between Rizzuto and Violi. What was his business coming there if Rizzuto never was inducted into the Sicillian Cosa Nostra? Therefore I believe that Rizzuto, Sr. was one of those who was 'released' by his Sicillian clan to become a member of the Bonannos. And I assume he didn't have to go through an induction ceremony again. I think a letter and a handshake was sufficient. I do believe that his son Vito was inducted into the Bonannos.B. wrote:Nick Rizzuto was a Bonanno soldier when he was in Canada, and if he was made into the Cattolica Eraclea family before that, he had transferred to the Bonannos because the Bonanno affiliation was more significant in Montreal than the international influence of the tiny Cattolica Eraclea family.
HairyKnuckles wrote:He may have been. But back in those days (1950s and before the 1950s), made guys who came to America were recognized by the American bosses if they were allowed to change their memberships by the Sicilian bosses. Once they joined the American Families, their positions with the Sicilian Families were probably undone. Some other examples of this were Giuseppe Buccellato, who came to America in 1959 and the Spitaleris (father and son) who also arrived to America in 1959. However, this practise ceased to function sometime afterwards probably because the old time American bosses like Bonanno and Gambino lost their links to their Sicilian counterparts. The so called zips who came to America later, the ones who flooded the US with heroin, were sent to America by their Sicilian bosses. They weren´t brought over by Galante.You're pretty serious about this huh? Well anyway, Nicolo Rizzuto was a man of honor in Sicily, under the Mannos
Cosa Nostra, the organization, started in Sicily and was brought over to the US with the immigration waves. The American Cosa Nostra of today is an outgrowth and an evolution of the original Sicilian Cosa Nostra.American Cosa Nostra started in America, not Sicily.
One of the reasons I left gangsterbb for good was because of the stubbornness of many of the posters overthere who are more inclined to believe what´s on Mafiawiki than new information debunking, and in many cases, refutes wikipidea. You will notice that this place is home to a lot of good posters and researchers, perhaps the best active ones on all of these forums and who are more than happy to disprove established facts. One of the links you provided is to a wiki entry and the other one doesn´t prove your point as far as I can see. You are more than welcome to this forum OleBlueEyes, but you will have to set your mind on that when posting info from mafiawiki you will be challenged. Please go through some of these threads found here and you will be surprised how much of the "established facts" on Mafiawiki (or in some books for that matter) actually isn´t.
