Barney Bellomo

[Little_Al1991]

Cartels more powerful.
Crips Bloods Latin Kings.
Bikie gangs. Hells Angel's have thousands of full patches in the US alone, hundreds more in canada.

Those organizations are national. Some international. GENOVESE exists purely in a few boroughs in NYC.

Cartels are not specifically in the US as in the members actually setting up crews but they import a lot of drugs which make them tons of cash.
Crips, Bloods and Latin Kings have more guys but in the mob it’s about quality over quantity.

[TallGuy19]

Which are these so called imaginary organized groups that only det exist on the internet that are more powerful than the Genovese? Albanians or russians? This is pure fiction, no credible evidence.

The Mexican Mafia is larger and arguably more powerful than the Genovese family. The only thing the Genovese have on La Eme is diversification.

[TommyNoto]

Yeah but even if you lump in all the remaining families in the country LCN is still small potatoes compared to many other groups.


Pogo

They are very different IMO from the mob , focused solely on DTO / street Vs quasi legal industries. The mob could be a major DTO if they chose but they would likely lose their industry rackets. Apples vs oranges focused on totally different rackets / skills

[Pogo The Clown]

You are living in another century. The industry rackets are long gone and the mob has neither the size, muscle, ability or will to be a major player in dug trafficking.


Pogo

[Amershire_Ed]

The cartels are definitely making more money than the west side but the life expectancy of its members is probably half of what it is for any of the 5 families. There’s just legit thousands of these dudes, and a lot of them check out quick—either dead or huge prison time. I read several cartel books and one thing I was surprised to learn is how little structure there actually is. Like with Sinaloa, El Chapo and El Mayo had a few guys around them that would handle stuff, but underneath those guys it’s just a never ending supply of sicarios and traffickers that have no real rank or anything.

Same goes for bloods, crips, Latin kings, on a smaller level, in terms of revenue. How many Crips in the United States wield Barney’s influence and power? Probably very very very few, if any at all. But there’s like, 100,000 of them. So just by sheer numbers they are more powerful. But if you compared the wealth and power of your average gang member or cartel member with that of your average mafia captain, the mafia captain is probably living longer and making more money and probably has a better overall quality of life.

[jmack]

I’m pretty sure Pogo is referring to the cartel groups that operate in America now dominating all its Hispanic proxies.

Correct. These groups are active in all 50 states and their influence is felt, directly or indirectly, in practically every city of any size. Not to mention they pull in multiple billion dollars a year. The Genovese and LCN as a whole is not even a pimple on their ass at this point. You also have drugs gangs that dwarf the Genovese in size, money and control of the streets.


Pogo

It has to be Sinaloa, in my opinion. The Flores brothers, when they started cooperating, made like 40 million in drug buys that they financed with their own money and not DEA money. Plus they had more than 5 million stashed under their brothers porch. Those are just two distributors in Chicago. I can’t imagine the Genovese family having more than 5-10 guys with just 5 million laying around.

[StandUpGuy]

Which are these so called imaginary organized groups that only det exist on the internet that are more powerful than the Genovese? Albanians or russians? This is pure fiction, no credible evidence.

The Mexican Mafia is larger and arguably more powerful than the Genovese family. The only thing the Genovese have on La Eme is diversification.

they are a prison gang so once again pure bullshit. Most of their members are rotting away in isolated cells or maximum security prisons while Cosa nostra capos like Campos(Gambino) live in mansions.

[TommyNoto]

You are living in another century. The industry rackets are long gone and the mob has neither the size, muscle, ability or will to be a major player in dug trafficking.


Pogo

They are down yes but just the ILA Metro funds is $600M in assets that the Westside controls ( Mikey Ragusa brother runs it ) and that’s just one NJ union. The Pontes have a $1B real estate portfolio that only use connected developers, RCA plumbing was $30M+ plumbing company.
Cava construction was a $100m+ revenue developer building sky scrapers and mob is still heavily involved in concrete industries getting contracts worth tens of millions.

They operate in different crime worlds with different skills, street based vs professional industries.

The cartels don’t have a lot of members/ muscle in the USA , they just wholesale to Americans

[TommyNoto]

You are living in another century. The industry rackets are long gone and the mob has neither the size, muscle, ability or will to be a major player in dug trafficking.


Pogo

They are down yes but just the ILA Metro funds is $600M in assets that the Westside controls ( Mikey Ragusa brother runs it ) and that’s just one NJ union. The Pontes have a $1B real estate portfolio that only use connected developers, RCA plumbing was $30M+ plumbing company.
Cava construction was a $100m+ revenue developer building sky scrapers and mob is still heavily involved in concrete industries getting contracts worth tens of millions.

They operate in different crime worlds with different skills, street based vs professional industries.

The cartels don’t have a lot of members/ muscle in the USA , they just wholesale to Americans

[TallGuy19]

Which are these so called imaginary organized groups that only det exist on the internet that are more powerful than the Genovese? Albanians or russians? This is pure fiction, no credible evidence.

The Mexican Mafia is larger and arguably more powerful than the Genovese family. The only thing the Genovese have on La Eme is diversification.

they are a prison gang so once again pure bullshit. Most of their members are rotting away in isolated cells or maximum security prisons while Cosa nostra capos like Campos(Gambino) live in mansions.

It doesn't change the fact that they're still a larger, wealthier, and more powerful organization than the Genovese family. This discussion is about the comparative wealth and power of criminal organizations, not the living conditions of its members/leaders.

[Pogo The Clown]

Again you are living in another century if you think the mob is controlling any of that or are numbers like that from the unions or construction.


Pogo

[TommyGambino]

In reading about the recent indictment and seeing Barney's name for the first time in a long time in coverage, I began thinking about him and his reign once again. Whether this ends for him like Chin or Don Carlo, I really think we have to begin considering him one of the most formidable and successful Dons in the history of LCN, especially given the fact that he is doing it in today's day and age which is nearly impossible.

The only hesitation I have is my uncertainty over where the Genovese Family really stands in the hierarchy of American criminal organizations in 2022. Put aside the other four families because none of them come close to the Westside. Is the Genovese family far and away the most powerful criminal organization currently based in the United States? I have seen no evidence to the contrary and, if this is correct, Barney is already a legend in my opinion.

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts.

The Gambino are right there with them, pretty much always have been

[TommyNoto]

Again you are living in another century if you think the mob is controlling any of that or are numbers like that from the unions or construction.


Pogo

It’s all public / reported info lol

ILA metro funds are $600M + in benefit assets , public info

Omnibuild (acquired Cava ) does $300M in sales and builds major luxury hotels in NYC including Sam Chang’s hotels Public info

1 NJ crew laundered $400M , public info

Let’s agree to disagree

[Wiseguy]

In reading about the recent indictment and seeing Barney's name for the first time in a long time in coverage, I began thinking about him and his reign once again. Whether this ends for him like Chin or Don Carlo, I really think we have to begin considering him one of the most formidable and successful Dons in the history of LCN, especially given the fact that he is doing it in today's day and age which is nearly impossible.

Bellomo has had a pretty successful run, especially in this day. The feds grudgingly credited Chin with the ability to choose capable leaders. As one investigator said, the Genovese have had the "deepest bench." Bellomo has managed to keep the family relatively stable, despite decline from attrition, repeated law enforcement attacks, etc. He just needs to avoid any more long prison sentences. He could be indicted next week for all we know. But he'd probably plead out in typical West Side fashion.

The only hesitation I have is my uncertainty over where the Genovese Family really stands in the hierarchy of American criminal organizations in 2022. Put aside the other four families because none of them come close to the Westside. Is the Genovese family far and away the most powerful criminal organization currently based in the United States? I have seen no evidence to the contrary and, if this is correct, Barney is already a legend in my opinion.

It seems the feds still consider the Mafia the single strongest organized crime group in the New York metro area. And the Genovese family is the top family within the mob. But the LCN is not a nationwide organization anymore. 95% of it's remaining membership is in the Northeast. About 80% in the 5 NY families.

I would say they are still the number one family in terms of power and numbers but I honestly don't think the Gambinos are that far off of them now thanks to their Sicilian faction and good leadership post the Gotti's.

Over the last 20 or so years I think what's seperated them from the other families has been their strong leadership. No matter who got pinched it always seemed like they had guys capable of stepping up. Even after Gigante and Barney were imprisoned in the 90s, they had the likes of Dom Cirillo, Larry Dentico, Daniel Leo, Ernie Muscarella etc that can fill the void.

The two families are pretty close in terms of size. And the Gambino's recent Sicilian leadership seems to have stabilized things. In terms of street rackets they're probably pretty comparable. The key difference in favor of the Genovese has been them being more able to retain a presence in the labor rackets. They've had significant decline in that area as well but not as much as the other families, including the Gambinos.

Their street power/ rackets has obviously taken a big hit like the other families.

However IMO, wealth power at the strong soldier, captain / admin level might be near all time highs with all the legit biz / real estate they own and the huge appreciation of those assets in today’s economy.

Sports gambling is so much bigger today with internet/ suburbanization vs old days so I don’t see the $ train slowing down anytime soon for them.

IMO Gambinos are up there too and their possible LA push IMo is about tapping into its huge gambling biz ( sports and machines)

Um, no.

Which are these so called imaginary organized groups that only det exist on the internet that are more powerful than the Genovese? Albanians or russians? This is pure fiction, no credible evidence.

This is one of the oldest of debates and the hitch is often what comes down to "power." Starting around 2008-2010, the Justice Department did reprioritize it's objectives. Transnational organized crime became the #1 focus, with the LCN dropping to #2, but it doesn't seem it was any single TOC group. Just TOC in general. Whoever gets put on their "TICOT" list have first priority and that is often changing. Again, when it comes to LCN, you're pretty much talking about the extended New York metro area at this point. And there aren't any Russian or Albanian criminal enterprises that have surpassed them there. But elsewhere in the country, that's another story.

Cartels more powerful.
Crips Bloods Latin Kings.
Bikie gangs. Hells Angel's have thousands of full patches in the US alone, hundreds more in canada.

Those organizations are national. Some international. GENOVESE exists purely in a few boroughs in NYC.

Well, technically the NY Metro Area - all 5 NYC boroughs, Long Island, the North Suburbs, and New Jersey. Along with whatever is left in Florida.

The Cartels are another discussion altogether. They are international organizations more comparable to the Italian OC groups than the American LCN, which is pretty much a domestic operation.

Street gangs, biker gangs, and prison gangs make up the bedrock of the retail drug trade. You may have, for example, thousands of Bloods in NYC but they're in various sets that fight amongst themselves as much as anything. A street gang or MC club may share the same name with another a thousand miles away but they don't necessarily have anything to do with each other. And whether we're talking black and Hispanic street gangs, any prison gang, or any MC club in the U.S., one can look at their indictments over any time period and about 80% of it is street level drug sales and weapons charges. Over and over again. They have numbers but not so much in terms of sophistication.

The Mexican Mafia is larger and arguably more powerful than the Genovese family. The only thing the Genovese have on La Eme is diversification.

The Mexican Mafia mainly a prison gang with, depending on what figure you want to go with, about 100 or so members. Though I've seen 350-400 on the high end. Yes, they are able to extort gangs in Southern California simply because the gang members know they'll likely end up in prison at some point. But I'm not sure how you quantify that in an apples to apples comparison.

They are very different IMO from the mob , focused solely on DTO / street Vs quasi legal industries. The mob could be a major DTO if they chose but they would likely lose their industry rackets. Apples vs oranges focused on totally different rackets / skills

Yes, the Genovese family seems savvy enough to be content with controlling ILA jobs on the waterfront rather than risk that with getting involved in large scale drug smuggling through the ports. At the same time, however, I wouldn't say the Mafia is marginalized in the drug trade by choice. They were supplanted in the heroin trade and were never in a position to control cocaine importation. They're at where they are now (mainly in New York at the mid-level) because of various factors, i.e. market changes, law enforcement, etc.

they are a prison gang so once again pure bullshit. Most of their members are rotting away in isolated cells or maximum security prisons while Cosa nostra capos like Campos(Gambino) live in mansions.

Naturally I'd rather be on the outside than rotting away in prison but, generally speaking, most LCN members are more or less middle class. Most of them are not living in mansions.

They are down yes but just the ILA Metro funds is $600M in assets that the Westside controls ( Mikey Ragusa brother runs it ) and that’s just one NJ union. The Pontes have a $1B real estate portfolio that only use connected developers, RCA plumbing was $30M+ plumbing company.
Cava construction was a $100m+ revenue developer building sky scrapers and mob is still heavily involved in concrete industries getting contracts worth tens of millions.

Well, context is key here.

Yes, you have relatives of mob guys in key management positions with the METRO funds. Heck, the ILA president was charged as a Genovese associate. But what does translate into? Today, it doesn't seem like these guys are pilfering the METRO funds. They're not funding casinos or something with all that money. Like the guys in charge on the local level of the NJ waterfront, it seems they are pretty much minding their p's and q's, focusing on dispensing union jobs and whatnot, which is smart.

The mob is certainly still involved in construction - indeed that industry more than any other - but they don't control that industry like they used to. While still in the multi-millions, the scale and money involved in much smaller, and the unions they have influence over fewer and farther between.

The Tuzzo check-cashing bust involved them laundering $400 million over 4 years while making $9 million in actual profit.

[TallGuy19]

In reading about the recent indictment and seeing Barney's name for the first time in a long time in coverage, I began thinking about him and his reign once again. Whether this ends for him like Chin or Don Carlo, I really think we have to begin considering him one of the most formidable and successful Dons in the history of LCN, especially given the fact that he is doing it in today's day and age which is nearly impossible.

Bellomo has had a pretty successful run, especially in this day. The feds grudgingly credited Chin with the ability to choose capable leaders. As one investigator said, the Genovese have had the "deepest bench." Bellomo has managed to keep the family relatively stable, despite decline from attrition, repeated law enforcement attacks, etc. He just needs to avoid any more long prison sentences. He could be indicted next week for all we know. But he'd probably plead out in typical West Side fashion.

The only hesitation I have is my uncertainty over where the Genovese Family really stands in the hierarchy of American criminal organizations in 2022. Put aside the other four families because none of them come close to the Westside. Is the Genovese family far and away the most powerful criminal organization currently based in the United States? I have seen no evidence to the contrary and, if this is correct, Barney is already a legend in my opinion.

It seems the feds still consider the Mafia the single strongest organized crime group in the New York metro area. And the Genovese family is the top family within the mob. But the LCN is not a nationwide organization anymore. 95% of it's remaining membership is in the Northeast. About 80% in the 5 NY families.

I would say they are still the number one family in terms of power and numbers but I honestly don't think the Gambinos are that far off of them now thanks to their Sicilian faction and good leadership post the Gotti's.

Over the last 20 or so years I think what's seperated them from the other families has been their strong leadership. No matter who got pinched it always seemed like they had guys capable of stepping up. Even after Gigante and Barney were imprisoned in the 90s, they had the likes of Dom Cirillo, Larry Dentico, Daniel Leo, Ernie Muscarella etc that can fill the void.

The two families are pretty close in terms of size. And the Gambino's recent Sicilian leadership seems to have stabilized things. In terms of street rackets they're probably pretty comparable. The key difference in favor of the Genovese has been them being more able to retain a presence in the labor rackets. They've had significant decline in that area as well but not as much as the other families, including the Gambinos.

Their street power/ rackets has obviously taken a big hit like the other families.

However IMO, wealth power at the strong soldier, captain / admin level might be near all time highs with all the legit biz / real estate they own and the huge appreciation of those assets in today’s economy.

Sports gambling is so much bigger today with internet/ suburbanization vs old days so I don’t see the $ train slowing down anytime soon for them.

IMO Gambinos are up there too and their possible LA push IMo is about tapping into its huge gambling biz ( sports and machines)

Um, no.

Which are these so called imaginary organized groups that only det exist on the internet that are more powerful than the Genovese? Albanians or russians? This is pure fiction, no credible evidence.

This is one of the oldest of debates and the hitch is often what comes down to "power." Starting around 2008-2010, the Justice Department did reprioritize it's objectives. Transnational organized crime became the #1 focus, with the LCN dropping to #2, but it doesn't seem it was any single TOC group. Just TOC in general. Whoever gets put on their "TICOT" list have first priority and that is often changing. Again, when it comes to LCN, you're pretty much talking about the extended New York metro area at this point. And there aren't any Russian or Albanian criminal enterprises that have surpassed them there. But elsewhere in the country, that's another story.

Cartels more powerful.
Crips Bloods Latin Kings.
Bikie gangs. Hells Angel's have thousands of full patches in the US alone, hundreds more in canada.

Those organizations are national. Some international. GENOVESE exists purely in a few boroughs in NYC.

Well, technically the NY Metro Area - all 5 NYC boroughs, Long Island, the North Suburbs, and New Jersey. Along with whatever is left in Florida.

The Cartels are another discussion altogether. They are international organizations more comparable to the Italian OC groups than the American LCN, which is pretty much a domestic operation.

Street gangs, biker gangs, and prison gangs make up the bedrock of the retail drug trade. You may have, for example, thousands of Bloods in NYC but they're in various sets that fight amongst themselves as much as anything. A street gang or MC club may share the same name with another a thousand miles away but they don't necessarily have anything to do with each other. And whether we're talking black and Hispanic street gangs, any prison gang, or any MC club in the U.S., one can look at their indictments over any time period and about 80% of it is street level drug sales and weapons charges. Over and over again. They have numbers but not so much in terms of sophistication.

The Mexican Mafia is larger and arguably more powerful than the Genovese family. The only thing the Genovese have on La Eme is diversification.

The Mexican Mafia mainly a prison gang with, depending on what figure you want to go with, about 100 or so members. Though I've seen 350-400 on the high end. Yes, they are able to extort gangs in Southern California simply because the gang members know they'll likely end up in prison at some point. But I'm not sure how you quantify that in an apples to apples comparison.

They are very different IMO from the mob , focused solely on DTO / street Vs quasi legal industries. The mob could be a major DTO if they chose but they would likely lose their industry rackets. Apples vs oranges focused on totally different rackets / skills

Yes, the Genovese family seems savvy enough to be content with controlling ILA jobs on the waterfront rather than risk that with getting involved in large scale drug smuggling through the ports. At the same time, however, I wouldn't say the Mafia is marginalized in the drug trade by choice. They were supplanted in the heroin trade and were never in a position to control cocaine importation. They're at where they are now (mainly in New York at the mid-level) because of various factors, i.e. market changes, law enforcement, etc.

they are a prison gang so once again pure bullshit. Most of their members are rotting away in isolated cells or maximum security prisons while Cosa nostra capos like Campos(Gambino) live in mansions.

Naturally I'd rather be on the outside than rotting away in prison but, generally speaking, most LCN members are more or less middle class. Most of them are not living in mansions.

They are down yes but just the ILA Metro funds is $600M in assets that the Westside controls ( Mikey Ragusa brother runs it ) and that’s just one NJ union. The Pontes have a $1B real estate portfolio that only use connected developers, RCA plumbing was $30M+ plumbing company.
Cava construction was a $100m+ revenue developer building sky scrapers and mob is still heavily involved in concrete industries getting contracts worth tens of millions.

Well, context is key here.

Yes, you have relatives of mob guys in key management positions with the METRO funds. Heck, the ILA president was charged as a Genovese associate. But what does translate into? Today, it doesn't seem like these guys are pilfering the METRO funds. They're not funding casinos or something with all that money. Like the guys in charge on the local level of the NJ waterfront, it seems they are pretty much minding their p's and q's, focusing on dispensing union jobs and whatnot, which is smart.

The mob is certainly still involved in construction - indeed that industry more than any other - but they don't control that industry like they used to. While still in the multi-millions, the scale and money involved in much smaller, and the unions they have influence over fewer and farther between.

The Tuzzo check-cashing bust involved them laundering $400 million over 4 years while making $9 million in actual profit.

It goes beyond simple extortion though. A Mexican Mafia member is the operational leader of a gang in the same way that a Cosa Nostra boss is the operational leader of his family. Unlike an extortionist who walks into a business and threatens to hurt the owner if he doesn't pay up, a carnal is someone who has worked their way up the ranks of their gang and is now the key decision maker in the organization. Yes, members are required to kick up a portion of their earnings under threat of death, but so are Cosa Nostra members (at least in theory).

My argument is that, on the whole, La Eme is larger and more powerful than the Genovese family. They control a much larger territory, likely generate more revenue, and they're not afraid to use violence.