Banana Split

[Doobeez]

I remember in one of the Bruno discussions, he mentions he, the boss, could put in anybody as his UB, but the Captains had to vote on who was to be considered for the Consigliere position. What is bugging me is, in those wiretapped meetings, was if Bruno and his Family being closely aligned with New York, would the big 5 have any influence on this decision at all, or was it kept in their family only?

Great thread here..

[SonnyBlackstein]

It's HIGHLY doubtful Bill was proposed without the influence of Joe.

That Gaspare would propose and the captains would elect Bill based purely on merit is highly suspicious.

It's likely Joe pressured Gaspare and probably other captains for the election.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

To go back to the start of the Bonanno problems, I've read that Gaspare DiGregorio was both the one who proposed Bill Bonanno for consigliere and the one who raised issue with the promotion. I'd have to check and see where it's mentioned that DiGregorio proposed him for the spot, but I know I've read it. Over time it seems consigliere became a position the boss could name just like he would underboss or captain, but up to a certain point the consigliere was voted into the position by the rest of the family, not the boss. Was Bill Bonanno voted into the position or did Joe Bonanno promote Bill himself? If JB promoted him, this would have been relatively unheard of for this time and may have been an issue unto itself. If DiGregorio or someone else proposed Bill and the captains/family voted him in, I can't see how they could blame JB for this.

Bill was proposed by DiGregorio and in turn Bill nominated Gaspar. A vote by the captains did take place. That´s according to Bill. Lack of informants makes it difficult to confirm though but I don´t see this particular info being fabricated. Voting in the consigliere was standard practise back then, atleast with the Bonannos. It´s possible other Families used other ways to name the consigliere (even back then) but considering the consigliere´s strong, important position and his general duties, an election seems to be the only fair and democratic way of naming one. He was supposed to keep the power balance between the boss and the rest of the Family, according to Mafia tradition.

Reading through this thread, I´m kinda stunned we let Giacomo Vacari get away with his posts. I regret not questioning him more thoroughly.

Sad thing is, he's still getting away with this bullshit over on the other site, and NOBODY questions him. But anywho, I also recall Gaspare proposing Bill, but I didn't read it anywhere, I simply saw it on the Bonanno movie and assumed it came from either his or Bills book. Oddly though, Joe doesn't really discuss much Bills mafia career in his Man Of Honor book. Great thread guys.

[dixiemafia]

Can you tell me the "story" at least? Was this a poster?

Sorry I missed your post. Yes I was joking, but like Lupara says the guy is a fraud. He claims he was Joe's "love child" in Hot Springs. He's a deranged idiot in my book. He'll make posts about "the old man" telling him this or that and fools lap that crap up like a hungry dog. He'll post pics and people will say he looks like him and crap

Then he claimed to run drugs for the old man out of Arkansas. I wished I could remember his damn name but I can't right off hand.

Maybe Lupara can remind us of his name. It just slips my mind at the moment

[tmarotta]

Hey Dixie the guy you are talking about calls himself Daniel Bonanno. I questioned him once and he blocked my email. His real name is Daniel Torbitt.

[B.]

I remember in one of the Bruno discussions, he mentions he, the boss, could put in anybody as his UB, but the Captains had to vote on who was to be considered for the Consigliere position. What is bugging me is, in those wiretapped meetings, was if Bruno and his Family being closely aligned with New York, would the big 5 have any influence on this decision at all, or was it kept in their family only?

Great thread here..

A few sources mention the consigliere needing to be elected by the membership. I don't remember Bruno himself mentioning anything about electing the consigliere, but in the recordings made of Riccobene, Narducci, Scarfo, and Testa after consigliere Rugnetta's death in the late 1970s, they talk about about how there is supposed to be a process for electing a consigliere but they feel that Bruno will basically appoint someone and only ask for votes from those who agree with him. One of them mentions that Bruno should at least ask the captains to vote since they represent the soldiers. Narducci, who refers to himself as one of the "capi", says he had been kept out of the loop. From other info, we know it is the rank and file who (supposedly) vote on the consigliere position since the consigliere is meant to represent the interests of the membership and not necessarily the boss. This seems to have been abandoned over time.

Riccobene says on this recording that he had never heard of multiple candidates being voted on for the consigliere spot, so we can assume like many mafia "elections", leading members scheme and consult each other "off the record" beforehand, put a name up, and everyone already agrees in advance to vote for him. The most famous example of this is when John Gotti was voted in as boss, but I would guess it's always gone on for any kind of mafia "election" going back to the beginning. It's what they do.

I find it strange in a transcript where Magaddino says he never took on a consigliere (at least to that point in time). It's like openly saying "I'm a dictator, deal with it," which knowing Magaddino, doesn't seem that far off the mark. You would think the Commission would ask him to take on a consigliere for appearances at least.

Going back to the Bonannos, I've wanted to know more about John Petrone. He was an old soldier in the Bronx and one report on MF claims he was named acting consigliere around the time the Bonanno problems were ramping up. I believe it says Joe Bonanno put him in this spot (acting consigliere may not need to be voted in?) and that Petrone then went to Carlo Gambino asking him for advice. This guy stands out to me because he is one of the earliest known Bronx-based Bonanno members and it's not entirely clear what role he played in the Bonanno situation of the 1960s. I would guess he had been a member of the Galante/Notaro crew, who were both Bonanno loyalists, but many members of this decina joined the DiGregorio faction.

[Pogo The Clown]

The most famous example of this is when John Gotti was voted in as boss, but I would guess it's always gone on for any kind of mafia "election" going back to the beginning. It's what they do.

This reminds me of when Gotti made some reference to replacing Joe Gallo as Consiglieri. He said something like how he would demote the Capos, put his own people in and have them vote to replace Gallo. So the Capos voting for the Consiglieri was still a thing (at least in the Gambinos) up to the mid 80s. It was probably gone by the late 80s though.


Pogo

[InCamelot]

What's crazy to me is that tensions were so high during the early part of this conflict, but there wasn't much violence. A lot of the violence came at the tail end when the dispute was pretty much on its way to being over.

Joe Bonanno resurfaced in mid 1966 sometime right? Yea like you said, it looks like a lot of the violence documented by the FBI didn't start until even way later than that. Approx a year maybe more. Looks like they shot it out during the spring of 1968, and then JB retired to Arizona.

Does anyone know of any info regarding how JB's return in '66 actually changed the dynamics of the situation? Mob docs talk of it as he came back and 'lead the charge for his loyalists'..but is there anything more concrete? I can't help but wonder if it was more complicated than that even after his return.

[Boatdrinks]

In his autobiography 'A Man of Honor' Joe Bonanno says he decided to make his public appearance after his son Bill was shot at on Troutman Street. Btw, Joe says before he wrote his book, he never revealed the truth about the kidnapping. Joe's book gives a good account of his dramatic public appearance. Gay Talese's 'Honor Thy Father' biography of Bill Bonanno, gives a much more detailed account of the return of Joe Bonanno, and the aftermath.
To answer the question about what happened when Joe made his public return, this is set out in the Talese book. Essentially, Joe, Bill, and their loyal captains, went to the mattresses, In Bill's house. It was an armed camp. Joe never went out. Money was tight. It was war!

[B.]

Ah, 7 years ago when we knew less and assumed Vacari was operating in good faith -- you can see me start to question him at least haha. Painful thread to bump.

[Pogo The Clown]

He who still walks among us.


Pogo

[thekiduknow]

What's crazy to me is that tensions were so high during the early part of this conflict, but there wasn't much violence. A lot of the violence came at the tail end when the dispute was pretty much on its way to being over.

Joe Bonanno resurfaced in mid 1966 sometime right? Yea like you said, it looks like a lot of the violence documented by the FBI didn't start until even way later than that. Approx a year maybe more. Looks like they shot it out during the spring of 1968, and then JB retired to Arizona.

Does anyone know of any info regarding how JB's return in '66 actually changed the dynamics of the situation? Mob docs talk of it as he came back and 'lead the charge for his loyalists'..but is there anything more concrete? I can't help but wonder if it was more complicated than that even after his return.

That's a good question. Pre Troutman, Bill Bonanno reported to the FBI that his "splinter group" was organized with him as boss, Vito DeFilippo as underboss, and Joe Notaro as consigliere. They had about 50 men on their side, including some old time members like Vito Bonventre and Joseph Spadaro providing financial assistance.

After Troutman, there's reports that the two sides were actually close to coming together in the wake of all the grand jury subpoenas. DiGregorio's underboss, Peter Crociata, was dropped around April and it was reported that as a type of olive branch Joe Notaro might take the position. Later on, it looks like Joe Zicarelli became the underboss for a brief time.

Joe Bonanno reappears in May, and they attempt to kill Frank Mari who is believed to be the one behind the shooting at Troutman. Bonanno personally visits Angelo Caruso, accosting him in public about how Caruso still "belongs" to him. Caruso would eventually join the Bonanno faction.

Bill reported that, in an ideal setup, he would be the boss and Joe would be in a kind of advisory role, which is something he wanted prior to the split.

So, to answer your question I think that Bonanno did in a way "lead the charge", but wanted Bill to be the boss by the end. I don't know if the family would have reunited if Bonanno didn't reappear, I think Bill wouldn't have allowed a non Bonanno loyalist to remain in charge. But, Joe coming back I think definitely contributed to the violence we see later on.

[JeremyTheJew]

Ah, 7 years ago when we knew less and assumed Vacari was operating in good faith -- you can see me start to question him at least haha. Painful thread to bump.

I can definitely see you start to get more n more leery

It’s like he had some complicated yet technical response for everything

Including fresh street talk from sf
Where he only listened Not talked with