What got you interested?

[B.]

Enjoying the responses.

Part of what drew me into doing actual research is the dopamine hit of finding new connections. This subject is a puzzle and finding out how many people and places fit together nationally, internationally, and historically is a wild ride.

Also I've always been into "guy stuff" like football, pro-wrestling as a kid, heavy metal, etc. There's a reason this subject overwhelmingly attracts dudes -- a fraternal secret society that enforces its own form of government via violence. You don't have to think the mafia is "cool" to find this stuff interesting but the subject speaks to something deep inside of men even if you hate what the mafia is. There's a reason men across the entire world throughout history have formed underworld organizations, secret societies, and brotherhoods whereas women don't.

[Wiseguy]

We have people from all over the world here and there are guys in Sweden, Russia, and Scotland who have more accurate info about the mafia than people born and raised in NYC, but of course we also have NYC and Chicago people who know their shit too.

I don't remember the last time we had a thread like this, but I'm genuinely interested in what everyone's entry point is. Doesn't matter if you started with the Sopranos, Wikipedia, or you were raised around it, how'd you catch the bug?

I've told it before. I was 15 (so almost 30 years ago now) and working for my uncle and cousins up in Montana one summer. He had a contract with the Forest Service to build trails through the Bitterroot Mountains. I was staying in my Aunt and Uncle's guestroom and they had a bunch of old magazines, one of which was the old People Magazine with Gotti on the cover. I read it and was pretty fascinated. Seemed as far of a world away from where I'm from. Went to the local library, though small, actually had several books on the Mafia. I remember checking out A Man of Honor by Bonanno, the Crime Confederation by Ralph Salerno, Wiseguy by Pileggi, and a few others. Later on I went and rented Goodfellas and the Godfather trilogy. Been hooked ever since.

Enjoying the responses.Part of what drew me into doing actual research is the dopamine hit of finding new connections. This subject is a puzzle and finding out how many people and places fit together nationally, internationally, and historically is a wild ride.

I know exactly what you mean. I get one of those dopamine hits every time there's a new indictment.

Also I've always been into "guy stuff" like football, pro-wrestling as a kid, heavy metal, etc. There's a reason this subject overwhelmingly attracts dudes -- a fraternal secret society that enforces its own form of government via violence. You don't have to think the mafia is "cool" to find this stuff interesting but the subject speaks to something deep inside of men even if you hate what the mafia is. There's a reason men across the entire world throughout history have formed underworld organizations, secret societies, and brotherhoods whereas women don't.

Same here with the guy stuff. Sociologists have even seen this as a regular phenomenon in groups of young people. Groups of boys will often have a certain hierarchical nature to them, a pecking order of sorts, while girls don't.

[Antiliar]

When I was somewhere between 10 and 14 someone gave me a copy of Bloodletters and Badmen by Jay Robert Nash. The old-time gangsters and bankrobbers like Billy the Kid and John Dillinger didn't pique my interest as much as the Italian and Jewish mobsters that seemed to have been connected to each other through the National Crime Syndicate, the Mafia, the Black Hand, and Murder Incorporated. They knew or controlled boxers and singers such as Frank Sinatra and had affairs with actresses like Marilyn Monroe. They seemed to have a lot more power and influence than the Billy the Kids and the Dillingers, and had successions like kings and emperors. That last part struck a chord with me since I already had an interest in history.

That led me to research who the bosses were and what areas they controlled. Who were their underbosses, consiglieri and captains? When did these organizations start in Italy and gain a foothold in the U.S.? What did they look like and where did they come from? Finally, how were they connected - and often related - to each other? To me it was a mystery that led to some answers, but the answers led to more questions. It's a journey I'm still on.

[B.]

Same here with the guy stuff. Sociologists have even seen this as a regular phenomenon in groups of young people. Groups of boys will often have a certain hierarchical nature to them, a pecking order of sorts, while girls don't.

100%.

Growing up I had a close group of friends and my best friend was the defacto leader (same guy mentioned above who watched the Lucchese doc with me). Hanger-ons came and went, but no matter who was hanging with us everyone deferred to him. In high school we hung out around our cars in a grocery store parking lot trying to find plans and if someone had an idea (i.e. finding another parking lot to go to) they'd always look at him to approve the plan.

I wasn't a follower by any means, we were best friends and peers, I just sort of understood he was the one who set the tone and was cool with it. In high school one of our friends drove him everywhere, would give him cigarettes, etc. He wasn't using the guy, it's just how it was. He was a sponsored skateboarder and was even able to get all of these older skaters in their 20s to buy us beer and hang with us when we were 17. Dude knew how to network.

He was also super short, so every time I see one of these tiny guys in the mob who holds a lot of power I think of him haha. We were middle class kids with Northern Euro heritage in the PNW, but easy to imagine for Italian kids in Bath Beach with different influences how those same tendencies might work out.

We never thought about the mob -- we thought of ourselves as the Outsiders and read the book + watched the movie 100 times. Boys like to "crew up", to quote Pennisi.

[B.]

When I was somewhere between 10 and 14 someone gave me a copy of Bloodletters and Badmen by Jay Robert Nash. The old-time gangsters and bankrobbers like Billy the Kid and John Dillinger didn't pique my interest as much as the Italian and Jewish mobsters that seemed to have been connected to each other through the National Crime Syndicate, the Mafia, the Black Hand, and Murder Incorporated. They knew or controlled boxers and singers such as Frank Sinatra and had affairs with actresses like Marilyn Monroe. They seemed to have a lot more power and influence than the Billy the Kids and the Dillingers, and had successions like kings and emperors. That last part struck a chord with me since I already had an interest in history.

That led me to research who the bosses were and what areas they controlled. Who were their underbosses, consiglieri and captains? When did these organizations start in Italy and gain a foothold in the U.S.? What did they look like and where did they come from? Finally, how were they connected - and often related - to each other? To me it was a mystery that led to some answers, but the answers led to more questions. It's a journey I'm still on.

Awesome, I was looking forward to you replying.

What was the first Family you dug into?

[Clark]

I have always loved reading, but around grade six my parents noticed that I was getting bored of the usual books that the school assigned, and I wasn't into the usual pre-teen adventure genres etc. I always liked history so my Mom suggested that I check-out the adult section of the library. I can't remember how, but I came back with The Westies by TJ English. She skimmed through it and somehow gave me the okay. I remember reading it and just thinking, "...holy shit." I just started gobbling up the entire organized crime section after that. I think I spent that entire summer reading and re-reading The Mafia Encyclopedia.

At first what kept me hooked was learning about a world so different from my own, but as I got older it was the thrill of researching, pulling at the threads of stuff, and the satisfaction of uncovering a story, filling the blanks, receiving a file or a picture that I have always wanted etc. It has taken me on quite a journey and connected me with some amazing people. The moral of the story is that The Westies is way better than those Harry Potter or Huckleberry Finn kids.

[SonnyBlackstein]

And I wasn't shaming Sonny... we all weirdos with this shit... Sonny is great

My boy.

To clarify my initial ramble, I am fascinated by the duality of the contradiction of how the mafia was formed as a noble society to fight foreign occupying invaders and has devolved into a purely criminal enterprise.

The oxymoron of honor and criminality.

That there are ethics and morals in an industry which by definition is ethically and morally void.

The idea that honor could be given to a profession which is by definition dishonorable. This philosophical inerrant contradiction just has an endless fascination for yours.

I really couldn't care less about 'crime' per say, if I did I'd be reading up about cartels, bloods and crips. Couldn't give two f's about that. I lie, I do with disdain.

Hopefully this clarifies and doesn't make me "that guy".

Cabrini, it was you, you broke my heart.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Great thread by the way. A lot of interesting guys posting interesting responses. Good read.

[JohnnyS]

I guess my introduction to the mob genre was watching the Godfather and Goodfellas. I then got hooked on the Sopranos and I guess my interest in the subject grew from there but honestly I can't say what it was exactly. I've always found LCN/OC an interesting subject and I had a casual interest for a number of years but the last 4 years or so my interest has just grew to a point where its become a near obsession.

[cavita]

When I was younger I was introduced to a lot of guys and associates in the life by my father who knew all of them and I had always heard the neighborhood stories. I didn't become interested until much later when I read some old newspaper articles and became fascinated that these guys from a relatively small town could control vice so effectively. I started doing my own research when I realized there was next to nothing written about the group and there was a lot of bad information out there.

[sdeitche]

I grew up in NJ, close to NYC so always got NY news. My mom loved the old mob movies and would watch them. I recall Castellano's shooting as Breaking News. It was a casual interest, but nothing more. I did know that my paternal grandfather was a small-time bookie who was arrested in the early 1970s.

90-91 were the "hook" years. Fall of 1990, I was a sophomore in college and saw Goodfellas in the movies (and saw it again three more times). I took the bait. Also caught up on the Godfather Trilogy as well (recall Godfather III, Goodfellas, and State of Grace were all released around the same time). Then got interested in reading Wiseguy. From there I started picking up all the mob books that were around then (90-91), including my mom's paperback copy of To Drop A Dime (which I still have).

Fast forward to the summer of 1993, I'm working at Jenkinsons Aquarium on Pt Pleasant Beach, owned by the Storinos. That was also the summer Tommy Ricciardi was on trial for the murder of their uncle, Vincent "Jimmy Sinatra" Craparotta. It was all the talk around the boardwalk. I also remember a Christmas party at the aquarium that December. Lots of characters there, though I cant recall anyone in particular. I just wasn't familiar enough with things.

I do recall one time I was on lunch break, and reading Mafia Dynasty by John Davis. One of the younger Storinos walked by, saw what I was reading and said "don't believe everything you read."

Spring of 1995 I moved to St. Petersburg, FL for a job (where I still live). Started hanging out online and visited the two mob websites that were around then - Alan J Munn's Mafia site and the Free jOhn Gotti Page. Joined shortly thereafter by That Life. AMericanmafia came circa late 97/early '98 if I recall. Anyway, met David Critchley on one of the early forums, who sent me information on the Trafficantes in early 1996, and my interest became an obsession.

Started writing for That LIfe and Americanmafia.com, and working on Cigar City Mafia. Found an agent and signed my first book deal in late 2002. Cigar City Mafia came out in January of 2004 and the rest is history. Nine books, 50 or so articles, lots of talking head appearances, and a few good online feuds. Also, directly through this community, I found my current agent who has repped my last four books.

[Mason_dixon]

Political views. Putting it to the man whenever possible. Growing up working with my dad pop in their construction business the line between black and white good and bad just got more blurry as I learned more about how the world operated and the things we had to do to keep things going. F the federal and state government they are the real gangsters.

Friend of the families testified against some big time "legit" guys. Turns out those guys were connected and seeing the consequences and no possible recourse on the rats part changed something inside me. Guess I found out this stuff is real.

[Johnny1and1]

Political views. Putting it to the man whenever possible. Growing up working with my dad pop in their construction business the line between black and white good and bad just got more blurry as I learned more about how the world operated and the things we had to do to keep things going. F the federal and state government they are the real gangsters.

Friend of the families testified against some big time "legit" guys. Turns out those guys were connected and seeing the consequences and no possible recourse on the rats part changed something inside me. Guess I found out this stuff is real.

Based on my life experiences, this is largely my world view. Red pilled out of necessity. In later years, after being out of jeopardy, this world view has served me well.

My path was I needed to lay off unequal money. My interest at that time was entirely out of necessity. Best to know who and what you’re dealing with. And best to understand simple things like the jealousy involved. And to deal with this not in the area closest to where I live. The geography rule is my rule, not their rule.

That part is over, but I still know a lot of guys, and still socialize with them when I’m where they’re at. I know the most about the guys that are done, but I recognize who is still active. In the winter I rent a condo from one of them, and they are almost entirely my social life down there. You grow comfortable associating with those that think as you think. And that’s probably not the smartest thing for me to do. I know how the Feds operate unethically, and even though they have to know I’m nobody, they could still sweep me in just for questioning. Just to make others nervous that you’re talking. It takes three, that’s the magic number.

A lot of people on here are really fascinated by all of this. I just understand it differently and probably won’t be posting photos of people’s houses, or making disparaging remarks about their intelligence. Make no mistake, scattered throughout the pyramid scheme there are some pretty smart guys. And there is still some honor left.

How did I become aware of them, and how did they become aware of me? Especially given the geographic divide? It’s really unspoken. They know I know, and I know they know. Money finds money. We all gravitate to our own level. Thankfully my level was the level of not getting caught, making some decent money, and being smart enough to walk away in a manner which didn’t create enemies. Where I live others have taken my place, and they lay off elsewhere. I’m aware of all of that as well. That's their deal. But I'm aware, becuase once you know what it looks like, it's pretty easy to spot.

It’s hard to describe my interest now. There’s a lot on here I have no interest in, and yet other stuff I find fascinating.

Generally it’s like any other business, certainly my business today. 10% of us make 90% of the money for some very simple reasons. Simple, not always easy.

My life could have gone either way. I’m pretty money driven, and thank God I didn’t act on that and keep booking. I know they checked me out to put me on record. I know they did because someone told me, and I was aware up north (home) that some inquiries had been made. Another made guy told them I was solid, but I was out. The closest I’ve come to going back were some stock tips with some penny stocks I knew were getting pumped. I made some small money and some of those guys did too, but then the guys setting it up came close to getting sanctioned by the SEC and I got away. If I hear something now, I usually act on it alone, and do small amounts. I might tell one other guy. Maybe. I’m told acting on a rumor in the manner I do is legal.

Believe it or not. That’s what it was, and that’s what it is for me.

[Boatdrinks]

When I was a kid, I grew up watching pirate films, cowboy and western films, film-noirs, and Warner Bros gangster films, so was familiar with Al Capone from an early age. I was introduced to the Mafia, with the fiction of 'The Godfather'. After that, anything mafia, was an abiding interest.

[Antiliar]

When I was somewhere between 10 and 14 someone gave me a copy of Bloodletters and Badmen by Jay Robert Nash. The old-time gangsters and bankrobbers like Billy the Kid and John Dillinger didn't pique my interest as much as the Italian and Jewish mobsters that seemed to have been connected to each other through the National Crime Syndicate, the Mafia, the Black Hand, and Murder Incorporated. They knew or controlled boxers and singers such as Frank Sinatra and had affairs with actresses like Marilyn Monroe. They seemed to have a lot more power and influence than the Billy the Kids and the Dillingers, and had successions like kings and emperors. That last part struck a chord with me since I already had an interest in history.

That led me to research who the bosses were and what areas they controlled. Who were their underbosses, consiglieri and captains? When did these organizations start in Italy and gain a foothold in the U.S.? What did they look like and where did they come from? Finally, how were they connected - and often related - to each other? To me it was a mystery that led to some answers, but the answers led to more questions. It's a journey I'm still on.

Awesome, I was looking forward to you replying.

What was the first Family you dug into?

If I recall correctly it was the Genovese Family since less information was available on the other ones back then. Joe Bonanno's book wasn't out yet so the only primary source the public had access to was Joe Valachi in the The Valachi Papers, which was one of Nash's sources. I think the next book I got was Carlo Gambino: Boss of Bosses. The CIA-Mafia Link by Charles Ashman was another early book I got into.

As for research (which you didn't ask about, but it was the next step in my evolution), before the internet I used the New York Times Index to search microfilm, and of course the New York Times was the dominant paper. Every large library had the microfilms. Government documents of senate hearings were only available at large university libraries. For vital records there was the Mormon Family History Center - but it had to be a large one. Interlibrary loans were time-consuming and the libraries often charged fees on top of shipping, but if you were serious they were necessary. When I look back and think about how much time and money I spent on copies for what is now free it makes me wonder how much I could have saved if I would have just waited...about three decades

In the late 1990s several genealogy sites appeared, which skyrocketed our ability to make new discoveries. Ancetry.com, FamilySearch, Genealogy.com, FamilyHeritage, RootsWeb, and MyFamily.com really helped by posting census records and the Social Security Death Index, and users posting their family trees. Back in the early 2000s when I was doing research (along with Dave Critchley and Steve Turner) for The Origin of Organized Crime in America this is what was available to us.