Calabrese view on outfit

[PolackTony]

I'm reminded of Sonny Red Indelicato's young nephew (maybe current member DiPilato) who was found with a hand-drawn mafia hierarchy chart when LE went to the Indelicato apartment building. Or Michael DiLeonardo saying he wanted to be a Gambino captain from the time he was 12. In NYC even little kids who were around the life knew the set-up.

My guess is in Chicago (and probably most US Families) there wasn't anything on that level, which plays into the general culture of the mafia there. They did induct sons but the grooming process was much different and there was a steeper learning curve. Kids in Chicago probably weren't fantasizing about holding certain ranks when they grow up.

What speaks to Calabrese's point is that not many guys with deeper Sicilian roots brought their sons in, whereas their equivalents in other cities did that all the time.

In Chicago, Tony DeMonte brought his son in, and Joe Priola’s kid became a Rockford member, of course. Giuseppe Carlisi I suspect was another one, though we don’t know for sure. Possible that Nick DeJohn could’ve been another. As you already pointed out, the Castellis did it. But then guys like DeGeorge, Bacino, the DiGiovannis, Prio, Pinelli, etc., none of them brought their sons in.

That reminds me though, looks like we forgot Gaetano and Bernard Morgano, which would be another Sicilian duo (and a second duo for the Gary guys).

George Saladino, Rockford LCN member (and possible early capo) was made a member and his son Frank "Gumba" Saladino was also made a member.

This brings up in an interesting question, if Rockford was more likely to make sons than Chicago. There must have been other examples there I’d think?

[B.]

Yeah I was thinking of the Sicilian guys born around the turn of the century or later. In other cities it was still normal to see that generation bringing sons in.

Phil Bacino is a good example because his son would have fit right in with many of the sons made in Elizabeth, wouldn't have to change a thing, but obviously he was kept out of the life in Chicago.

[cavita]

I'm reminded of Sonny Red Indelicato's young nephew (maybe current member DiPilato) who was found with a hand-drawn mafia hierarchy chart when LE went to the Indelicato apartment building. Or Michael DiLeonardo saying he wanted to be a Gambino captain from the time he was 12. In NYC even little kids who were around the life knew the set-up.

My guess is in Chicago (and probably most US Families) there wasn't anything on that level, which plays into the general culture of the mafia there. They did induct sons but the grooming process was much different and there was a steeper learning curve. Kids in Chicago probably weren't fantasizing about holding certain ranks when they grow up.

What speaks to Calabrese's point is that not many guys with deeper Sicilian roots brought their sons in, whereas their equivalents in other cities did that all the time.

In Chicago, Tony DeMonte brought his son in, and Joe Priola’s kid became a Rockford member, of course. Giuseppe Carlisi I suspect was another one, though we don’t know for sure. Possible that Nick DeJohn could’ve been another. As you already pointed out, the Castellis did it. But then guys like DeGeorge, Bacino, the DiGiovannis, Prio, Pinelli, etc., none of them brought their sons in.

That reminds me though, looks like we forgot Gaetano and Bernard Morgano, which would be another Sicilian duo (and a second duo for the Gary guys).

George Saladino, Rockford LCN member (and possible early capo) was made a member and his son Frank "Gumba" Saladino was also made a member.

This brings up in an interesting question, if Rockford was more likely to make sons than Chicago. There must have been other examples there I’d think?

The only other instance possible I can think of is Underboss Frank Buscemi had a son named Frank who I heard may have been made a member. The elder Frank relied heavily on his son for narcotics distribution and pickup of monies relating to LCN matters. The son was also a front and owner of many businesses connected to his father- Rondinella Foods, taverns, restaurants and Stateline Vending to name a few.

[B.]

Would have expected the opposite in Rockford given they pulled from compaesani. Milwaukee recruited heavily among sons and within the traditional clans.

[InCamelot]

Did the Genovese have a waiting period too? I know Massino instituted the same/similar rule about proposed members to weed out possible undercover agents post-Brasco.

I recall reading that somewhere, although it may have very well been forum 'street-talk'. Another piece of street-talk I'm sure I read is that Vinny Basciano was on record with the Genovese before switching to the Bonanno's to get made faster. I wonder if Massino's policy was in play at that time.

[B.]

Basciano was on record with Big Trin from the time he was 20 and Trin was a Bonanno associate long before he was made so I don't think there's any substance to the rumor unless Basciano was with the Genovese as a teenager.

[Cheech]

Thats old talk from a guy that liked pizza. It was regarding basciano being close to prisco. And that prisco would have made him eventually but basciano wanted the badge real bad

[Hired_Goonz]

Didn't the Genovese knock down Basciano for membership when the list went around because they mistakenly thought they had killed his father? Usually when a family vetoes a proposed member from going into another family it's because they feel they have a claim on the guy. So maybe that story getting twisted is how a narrative got started about Vinny being on record with the Genovese. I mean the guy looks like he's in high school in that pic from the Bono wedding, hard to imagine wiseguys from different families sitting down to negotiate him being released prior to that lol.

[B.]

Colombos are the ones who made the claim when the list went around.

[Coloboy]

Another possibility is James Samuel "Tar Baby" Cerone (cousin of Jack Cerone and brother of Frank "Skippy" Cerone) and his son James John Cerone.

Good one, forgot about them. The subject of Jack Cerone, Jr, is debatable. Whether or not they ever made him, Jack the Kid, I believe, was definitely involved in the Life.

Another possible case would be the Cozzos. We know that the Feds had Sam "Jelly" Cozzo as a member on at least one list, though the evidence on Jimmy Boy himself is conflicted.

I forgot all about the Cozzos. Jimmy was identified as made in an affidavit submitted by FBI agent Peter Wacks when Cozzo, Dominic Senese (also identified as made), and Joe Talerico (described as an "associate") were ousted from the Teamsters. I know that Red said Cozzo wasn't made but the possibility is there that he was made after Red cooperated.

Thanks for the confirmation on the affidavit. My assumption is that Jimmy was made after Red was off the street as well (and when I spoke with Red about Jimmy, he admitted that he thought that was very well possible).

The possibility of Cozzo not being made is news to me. Isn't the general consensus that he was boss of Grand Ave after Lombardo went away in the 80's? My understanding of the leadership over there was Lombardo>Cozzo>Vena . Seems unlikely given his stature he wasn't a member.

[Hired_Goonz]

Oh my bad. Well I wonder how things would have worked out for Vinny if he ended up in the Genovese family instead of the train wreck that was the Bonannos.

[PolackTony]

Another possibility is James Samuel "Tar Baby" Cerone (cousin of Jack Cerone and brother of Frank "Skippy" Cerone) and his son James John Cerone.

Good one, forgot about them. The subject of Jack Cerone, Jr, is debatable. Whether or not they ever made him, Jack the Kid, I believe, was definitely involved in the Life.

Another possible case would be the Cozzos. We know that the Feds had Sam "Jelly" Cozzo as a member on at least one list, though the evidence on Jimmy Boy himself is conflicted.

I forgot all about the Cozzos. Jimmy was identified as made in an affidavit submitted by FBI agent Peter Wacks when Cozzo, Dominic Senese (also identified as made), and Joe Talerico (described as an "associate") were ousted from the Teamsters. I know that Red said Cozzo wasn't made but the possibility is there that he was made after Red cooperated.

Thanks for the confirmation on the affidavit. My assumption is that Jimmy was made after Red was off the street as well (and when I spoke with Red about Jimmy, he admitted that he thought that was very well possible).

The possibility of Cozzo not being made is news to me. Isn't the general consensus that he was boss of Grand Ave after Lombardo went away in the 80's? My understanding of the leadership over there was Lombardo>Cozzo>Vena . Seems unlikely given his stature he wasn't a member.

I believe that he was made, but apart from the affidavit that Snakes mentioned, I’m not aware there is specific evidence stating that he was. There were guys in Chicago who you’d think were made, but who weren’t (e.g., the Feds thinking back in the 60s that Infelise was made, but he wasn’t made until the 80s). FWIW, Eboli probably took over from Lombardo, and at that point Cozzo may not have been made yet. Tony Centracchio also probably preceded Vena. Additionally, my take is that we don’t really know for sure if any of these guys were formal captains or if they were just acting for Lombardo; Nick Calabrese, for example, wasn’t even sure if Eboli was a captain at the time that Eboli was present at the Spilotro murders. So, even though I personally do believe that Cozzo was made by the 90s, he may never have officially been a capo.

[Coloboy]

Definitely see your point Tony. When I research the outfit, particularly when listening to stores from those who were involved (people like calabrese Jr., Red Wemette, Cullota, Fratiano etc) I always try to remember just how hard they worked to keep the structure secret. It appears that sometimes even members weren't' given the full exact picture of what was happening at the top of the top. Orders came down, money went up. If you were up for a promotion, you were told. Simple as that.

I'm reminded of how Calabrese Sr. even seemed a bit foggy as to what was happening in leadership on the recorded convos with Jr. However, we could chalk that up to him being in prison as well and not having access to solid info.

[Snakes]

Frank Sr. couldn't even remember Al Tornabene's last name, although that is understandable considering Frank was locked up before Tornabene became boss. He at least knew enough to about him to categorize him as a "sleeper."

[PolackTony]

Frank Sr. couldn't even remember Al Tornabene's last name, although that is understandable considering Frank was locked up before Tornabene became boss. He at least knew enough to about him to categorize him as a "sleeper."

Snakes, we're all eagerly waiting for your current project to drop so that you can clear up every one of these uncertainties and loose ends regarding the 90s-era Outfit: every member, every captain, every admin position, and the time/date and restaurant location of every making ceremony.