Calabrese view on outfit

[PolackTony]

Good list.

Joe Costello is another member who just came to mind. His father and uncle were members.

Tony DeMonte and Frank DeMonte are another example.

Possible also that Sam Carlisi’s father Giuseppe Carlisi was made (I think it’s certainly possible that he was a Buffalo member who transferred to Chicago, though we don’t know that for sure). I’ve seen some people refer to Jimmy Marcello’s dad Salvatore “Sam” Marcello as a possible member as well. He was at least a criminally active associate, though I don’t think that anything has ever surfaced stating that he was made.

While it clearly wasn’t the norm, it happened more than once or twice. As you already said, they didn’t just make these guys because of who their dads were. Having a father in the family most certainly put them within that inner circle of trust, but these guys still had to have proved themselves in their own right.

Frank “Toots” Caruso, BTW, is the son of a capo (Skid Caruso), the grandson of the preceding capo (Bruno Roti), and cousin of a member (Fred Roti). I also think that Toots’ brother Bruno Caruso could very well have been made. Some people today think that Toots’ son Frankie Caruso is made (I guess he put in work by kicking the shit of Lenard Clark). Wouldn’t shock me if he was, but there’s nothing at all to support that aside from speculation, so far as I know.

[Snakes]

Another possibility is James Samuel "Tar Baby" Cerone (cousin of Jack Cerone and brother of Frank "Skippy" Cerone) and his son James John Cerone.

[PolackTony]

Another possibility is James Samuel "Tar Baby" Cerone (cousin of Jack Cerone and brother of Frank "Skippy" Cerone) and his son James John Cerone.

Good one, forgot about them. The subject of Jack Cerone, Jr, is debatable. Whether or not they ever made him, Jack the Kid, I believe, was definitely involved in the Life.

Another possible case would be the Cozzos. We know that the Feds had Sam "Jelly" Cozzo as a member on at least one list, though the evidence on Jimmy Boy himself is conflicted.

[InCamelot]

While LE has done a lot of damage to Chicago and there's been general attrition, you don't hear anyone say they dumbed down the membership and brought in unqualified people. That's been a common sentiment among members/associates in other cities for decades, especially NYC, but can't think of any examples in Chicago.

It plays into what Frank Jr. has said about them preferring not to bring sons in -- we know they did bring in relatives sometimes but I think the greater point is nepotism played little role in the recruitment process and relatives had to be capable in their own right. Nick Calabrese for example was a cold-blooded killer, not just someone who came in on his brother's coattails.

Another similarity between the Outfit and the Genovese may also be their stringency in the recruitment process. One example would be the alleged minimum 9-year period of time associates need to be on the record before they can even be considered for membership, but another example I found interesting was John Pennisi noting that the Genovese in particular do not stand up for their associates.

This perception from the other families could simply mean that the Westside are not the most righteous of folks, but its not impossible that it could stem from the Genovese wanting to weed out all the associates who can't stand on their own without a borgata behind them, ensuring that members being inducted are always of "quality".

[B.]

Did the Genovese have a waiting period too? I know Massino instituted the same/similar rule about proposed members to weed out possible undercover agents post-Brasco.

[Snakes]

Another possibility is James Samuel "Tar Baby" Cerone (cousin of Jack Cerone and brother of Frank "Skippy" Cerone) and his son James John Cerone.

Good one, forgot about them. The subject of Jack Cerone, Jr, is debatable. Whether or not they ever made him, Jack the Kid, I believe, was definitely involved in the Life.

Another possible case would be the Cozzos. We know that the Feds had Sam "Jelly" Cozzo as a member on at least one list, though the evidence on Jimmy Boy himself is conflicted.

I forgot all about the Cozzos. Jimmy was identified as made in an affidavit submitted by FBI agent Peter Wacks when Cozzo, Dominic Senese (also identified as made), and Joe Talerico (described as an "associate") were ousted from the Teamsters. I know that Red said Cozzo wasn't made but the possibility is there that he was made after Red cooperated.

[PolackTony]

Another possibility is James Samuel "Tar Baby" Cerone (cousin of Jack Cerone and brother of Frank "Skippy" Cerone) and his son James John Cerone.

Good one, forgot about them. The subject of Jack Cerone, Jr, is debatable. Whether or not they ever made him, Jack the Kid, I believe, was definitely involved in the Life.

Another possible case would be the Cozzos. We know that the Feds had Sam "Jelly" Cozzo as a member on at least one list, though the evidence on Jimmy Boy himself is conflicted.

I forgot all about the Cozzos. Jimmy was identified as made in an affidavit submitted by FBI agent Peter Wacks when Cozzo, Dominic Senese (also identified as made), and Joe Talerico (described as an "associate") were ousted from the Teamsters. I know that Red said Cozzo wasn't made but the possibility is there that he was made after Red cooperated.

Thanks for the confirmation on the affidavit. My assumption is that Jimmy was made after Red was off the street as well (and when I spoke with Red about Jimmy, he admitted that he thought that was very well possible).

[B.]

Seems unlikely Wemette would have known the status of every single member even when he was on the street.

[Snakes]

Seems unlikely Wemette would have known the status of every single member even when he was on the street.

To be fair to Red, he was pretty close to Cozzo and that whole crew (Lombardo/Grand Avenue).

[PolackTony]

Seems unlikely Wemette would have known the status of every single member even when he was on the street.

To be fair to Red, he was pretty close to Cozzo and that whole crew (Lombardo/Grand Avenue).

I take a lot of things that Red says with a grain of salt, but I do believe him when says that he was very close personally to Jimmy Cozzo and his family.

[funkster]

I like Frank and his interviews, and i think generally speaking he's right involving sons was discouraged, but he's never struck me as knowing much about the ins and outs.

[PolackTony]

I like Frank and his interviews, and i think generally speaking he's right involving sons was discouraged, but he's never struck me as knowing much about the ins and outs.

Frank Jr’s window onto the Outfit was primarily via his father, with whom he had an obviously fraught relationship. Some of what he says may be stuff that his father explicitly told him, other things may be stuff that he’s gleaned from being around his father and uncle (Jimmy Calandra is not the guy to tease out these nuances either, lol). When he’s the only guy out there talking about Chicago online, it’s easy for people to think that his opinions were facts about the organization. His dad didn’t like drugs; not everyone shared that antipathy. Frank Jr seems to think it was basically some rule that they didn’t bring their kids into the Life; while not the norm, we can see there were too many cases for it have been aberrant. It’s Frank Jr’s take on the info that he was exposed to.

What’s funny is that in the Calabreses’ own crew, there were two famous (meaning famous in Chicago) father/son duos. One doesn’t need to have been connected to know about the Carusos and Rotis. Anyone who opened a newspaper in Chicago knew about those families, lol.

[B.]

I'm reminded of Sonny Red Indelicato's young nephew (maybe current member DiPilato) who was found with a hand-drawn mafia hierarchy chart when LE went to the Indelicato apartment building. Or Michael DiLeonardo saying he wanted to be a Gambino captain from the time he was 12. In NYC even little kids who were around the life knew the set-up.

My guess is in Chicago (and probably most US Families) there wasn't anything on that level, which plays into the general culture of the mafia there. They did induct sons but the grooming process was much different and there was a steeper learning curve. Kids in Chicago probably weren't fantasizing about holding certain ranks when they grow up.

What speaks to Calabrese's point is that not many guys with deeper Sicilian roots brought their sons in, whereas their equivalents in other cities did that all the time.

[PolackTony]

I'm reminded of Sonny Red Indelicato's young nephew (maybe current member DiPilato) who was found with a hand-drawn mafia hierarchy chart when LE went to the Indelicato apartment building. Or Michael DiLeonardo saying he wanted to be a Gambino captain from the time he was 12. In NYC even little kids who were around the life knew the set-up.

My guess is in Chicago (and probably most US Families) there wasn't anything on that level, which plays into the general culture of the mafia there. They did induct sons but the grooming process was much different and there was a steeper learning curve. Kids in Chicago probably weren't fantasizing about holding certain ranks when they grow up.

What speaks to Calabrese's point is that not many guys with deeper Sicilian roots brought their sons in, whereas their equivalents in other cities did that all the time.

In Chicago, Tony DeMonte brought his son in, and Joe Priola’s kid became a Rockford member, of course. Giuseppe Carlisi I suspect was another one, though we don’t know for sure. Possible that Nick DeJohn could’ve been another. As you already pointed out, the Castellis did it. But then guys like DeGeorge, Bacino, the DiGiovannis, Prio, Pinelli, etc., none of them brought their sons in.

That reminds me though, looks like we forgot Gaetano and Bernard Morgano, which would be another Sicilian duo (and a second duo for the Gary guys).

[cavita]

I'm reminded of Sonny Red Indelicato's young nephew (maybe current member DiPilato) who was found with a hand-drawn mafia hierarchy chart when LE went to the Indelicato apartment building. Or Michael DiLeonardo saying he wanted to be a Gambino captain from the time he was 12. In NYC even little kids who were around the life knew the set-up.

My guess is in Chicago (and probably most US Families) there wasn't anything on that level, which plays into the general culture of the mafia there. They did induct sons but the grooming process was much different and there was a steeper learning curve. Kids in Chicago probably weren't fantasizing about holding certain ranks when they grow up.

What speaks to Calabrese's point is that not many guys with deeper Sicilian roots brought their sons in, whereas their equivalents in other cities did that all the time.

In Chicago, Tony DeMonte brought his son in, and Joe Priola’s kid became a Rockford member, of course. Giuseppe Carlisi I suspect was another one, though we don’t know for sure. Possible that Nick DeJohn could’ve been another. As you already pointed out, the Castellis did it. But then guys like DeGeorge, Bacino, the DiGiovannis, Prio, Pinelli, etc., none of them brought their sons in.

That reminds me though, looks like we forgot Gaetano and Bernard Morgano, which would be another Sicilian duo (and a second duo for the Gary guys).

George Saladino, Rockford LCN member (and possible early capo) was made a member and his son Frank "Gumba" Saladino was also made a member.