Thomas Carrube testimony notes (Cammarano trial)

[newera_212]

Castelucci not naming an Acting Captain for the Brooklyn Crew was seen as weird by Pennisi.

I remember Pennisi saying that Castelucci would rotate that "position" depending on what was needed or who was involved. He used Pennisi in this capacity sometimes, used Sideburns Cerella in this capacity, etc. just depending on what the situation was, but he didn't officially (or unofficially, really) name anyone full time. Where, in the Bonnanos, Ronnie Giallanzo - who was technically an Acting Capo himself - dedicated Mike Padavona as his full time 'acting captain.' It seems smart these days to have one of the better Soliders act as a buffer between the actual Captain and the street/the other guys. Every teacher has a favorite pet, so I bet this has been going on forever and just wasn't really talked about as a "thing" until Pennisi brought it up. I think that's the first time I really heard it, anyway

[SonnyBlackstein]

Because that vote didn’t mean shit. It’s apparent you can’t just round up a majority of captains and vote a Boss out. I’ll bet anything the other bosses backed him up and that’s how he stayed in power.

The Boss is the Boss until he’s dead or gives up the throne.

And we've seen this time and time again in the last few decades.
Everybody calling Vic out, Crea in. When Vic was unquestioned throughout.
Peter Gotti. Everybody can call him what they want, that the Zips overthrew him, he's a patsy, blah blah but he was still official even (bullshit) apparently when he renounced the life near the end.
There was conjecture about Merlino when he was away.
And Mancuso. "Cammarano now wears the hat etc etc..."

What we've seen if nothing else over the past two decades is the boss is the boss is the boss, is, the boss. Until as you say, he walks or dies.

[B.]

John Pennisi mentioned in some of his interviews that the Lucchesse family was going to set up a Brooklyn crew with Pennisi as acting captain and another member of Castellucci's crew as captain. Then we have Gravano acting for Toddo Aurello while Toddo was still on the street.

Yeah, it's turning out to be very common with many/all of the NYC Families. I can think of examples in the Colombo, Gambino, Bonanno, and Lucchese Families and I'm sure the Genovese did it as well.

I thought literally like 90% of the captains voted cammarano and porky in?

If Cammarano was voted in as the official Boss, how was Mancuso able to shelve him?

Because that vote didn’t mean shit. It’s apparent you can’t just round up a majority of captains and vote a Boss out. I’ll bet anything the other bosses backed him up and that’s how he stayed in power.

The Boss is the Boss until he’s dead or gives up the throne.

The Luccheses didn't recognize Mancuso, or at least Matty Madonna didn't. That probably encouraged the Cammarano faction, especially since Pennisi said Cammarano worked with the Luccheses to get the Spirito inductees approved after the fact.

But I think you're right, there's an implication that the other Families did recognize Mancuso, much like some of the Families recognize Merlino while the Luccheses didn't. Since it came out Mancuso was involved / mentioned in the recent Colombo admin bust, there may be some interesting details there. As a Bronx guy Mancuso may have had support from the Genovese Family which would be big in terms of retaining his seat.

With the guys getting shelved, it wouldn't surprise me if it ends up getting blamed on Zancocchio. He comes across like the main mover and instigator based on what the sources have said and though he may have been carrying out Cammarano's own wishes, Zancocchio seems like an easy scapegoat should they want to bring the other shelved guys back.

Vitale said in the Bonanno Family guys could be shelved "for a period" and brought back. Strangely he also said guys can retain their formal rank on the shelf, that it's different from "breaking" someone's rank and being shelved doesn't automatically mean someone is demoted. Never heard that elsewhere, though it's basically what happened to Vitale himself where he kept his underboss spot but was ostracized rather than officially shelved. He seems to suggest a guy could be officially shelved and keep his spot though.

[OcSleeper]

The Luccheses didn't recognize Mancuso, or at least Matty Madonna didn't. That probably encouraged the Cammarano faction, especially since Pennisi said Cammarano worked with the Luccheses to get the Spirito inductees approved after the fact.

We know the Lucchese-Bonanno relationship was pretty volatile in the early 2010s and that Cammarano helped mend that. I think it's not out of the realm of possibilities that the Luccheses supported Cammarano initially. But what about the new admin that took over in 2017. I can't recall seeing anything on how the new admin viewed Mancuso/Cammarano

But I think you're right, there's an implication that the other Families did recognize Mancuso, much like some of the Families recognize Merlino while the Luccheses didn't. Since it came out Mancuso was involved / mentioned in the recent Colombo admin bust, there may be some interesting details there. As a Bronx guy Mancuso may have had support from the Genovese Family which would be big in terms of retaining his seat.

I always felt the Genoveses supported Cammarano since they immediately informed them of the results after he was elected in 2015. There's nothing to suggest they did so we can't say for sure but the fact they went to them right away has always made me think he had some support there.

[B.]

Oh that's right. Could mean they were just letting them know a change had taken place and the Genovese may or may not have supported it, but it does lend itself to the idea of them recognizing Cammarano.

Mancuso had history with the Gambino Family, his father being a former Gambino associate, so that pretty much leaves them as the biggest question mark.

[PolackTony]

John Pennisi mentioned in some of his interviews that the Lucchesse family was going to set up a Brooklyn crew with Pennisi as acting captain and another member of Castellucci's crew as captain. Then we have Gravano acting for Toddo Aurello while Toddo was still on the street.

Yeah, it's turning out to be very common with many/all of the NYC Families. I can think of examples in the Colombo, Gambino, Bonanno, and Lucchese Families and I'm sure the Genovese did it as well.

I’ve been wondering if Chicago did the same as well. In 1986, when Angelo LaPietra had been convicted in the Strawman case, his brother and soldier Jimmy LaPietra seems to have take over as acting capo and told Angelo something like “so, I’ll be, like, your sottogob?” (IIRC). We know that, traditionally, the underboss of the family could also be the “sostituto” for the boss (though we also see cases where the consigliere was seen as the “surrogate”), and thus act as boss in his stead when needed (you see the term “sostituto” used in that way in Italian governmental bureaucracy, where what we would translate as a vice-secretary, under secretary, or deputy secretary, for example is called “sostituto”). Over time, this notion of acting boss or acting captain, I think, probably evolved out of the concept of “sostituto” due to exigency (particularly with intensifying LE pressure and so many guys doing time). As that became more common, it would’ve been less of a jump to have a guy acting for someone else even when the official captain was still on the street, as insulation. The mafia never had an official “sottocapodecina” rank, so I see the whole acting captain thing as sort of a de facto equivalent that emerged out of necessity.

[B.]

Yeah I'd be interested in knowing how early the acting captain position shows up. "Sostituto" for the boss was in place by the Sangiorgi Report (late 1800s / early 1900s) and Gentile refers to it in the US early on but nobody really breaks that kind of thing down on a capodecina/crew level until later. Easy to imagine captains had a sostituto as long as the admin has had it.

Valachi said his crew had someone who was sort of designated to help the captain run the crew. I can't remember if Valachi himself was in that spot earlier but later it was Vinnie Mauro and Valachi beefed about it because he didn't want to have orders relayed through Mauro. Didn't sound like an acting captain necessarily but reminds me of the Chicago "crew leaders" or "avugad" as they appeared to call them. Garcia said Louis Filippelli had a similar role for Funzie Sisca. Easy to imagine it's an unofficial messenger sort of role, but plays into this where a certain soldier is selected to help manage the captain's affairs.

[Pmac2]

so did thomas carrube flip because of some crimes pete bs logviello. im guessing its a doimno effect. petey had it out for him and when he became a CW he give up carrube

[Tonyd621]

Cammarano got shelved bc Mancuso didn't like his trial tactics I thought

[Wiseguy]

Ally Di on FB.

Just checked and he was recently in NYC for a trip but still lives in AZ.

He saw Top Gun a few days ago. Good times.

[chin_gigante]

Cammarano got shelved bc Mancuso didn't like his trial tactics I thought

Appears not to be the case if Carrube passed along the information months before the trial even began

[B.]

Curious if DiPilato moving to Arizona and Bonventre moving to Wappingers Falls was influenced by Mancuso asserting his power again. Not necessarily that they were shelved, but Cammarano told Lovaglio if Mancuso's acting bosses had stayed in place people would just walk away from the org. DiPilato was a Cammarano supporter and it appears the Asaro/Bonventre faction was too.

[AntComello]

Curious if DiPilato moving to Arizona and Bonventre moving to Wappingers Falls was influenced by Mancuso asserting his power again. Not necessarily that they were shelved, but Cammarano told Lovaglio if Mancuso's acting bosses had stayed in place people would just walk away from the org. DiPilato was a Cammarano supporter and it appears the Asaro/Bonventre faction was too.

I can tell you bonventure is doing pretty well for himself. He owns the biggest auto body shop in Poughkeepsie (where I live) he’s partners with the biggest towing company in dutchess county and also partners with the BIGGEST developer in dutchess county. Not to mention he does work on the local police cars. I drive by his auto body compound every day usually see him or his son out there. Guys is def LOADED. Doesn’t need the mob but wondering if he’s doing anything illegal and or kicking up still.

[newera_212]

Is it fair to say Carrube was kind of a bum? Or just simply not an active guy? I think that pizza place did pretty well before the whole beef about the L&B thing. Carrube's story is very, very interesting. It's actually kind of funny.

The guy managed to keep his distance for years and was pressured into being made? He had some businesses , but as an associate he wasn't coming around or kicking up, so they made him in order to get closer to whatever money he had? I feel like that's kind of what happened here just by reading what's in front of us. Who knows. Very strange.

[TallGuy19]

Is it fair to say Carrube was kind of a bum? Or just simply not an active guy? I think that pizza place did pretty well before the whole beef about the L&B thing. Carrube's story is very, very interesting. It's actually kind of funny.

The guy managed to keep his distance for years and was pressured into being made? He had some businesses , but as an associate he wasn't coming around or kicking up, so they made him in order to get closer to whatever money he had? I feel like that's kind of what happened here just by reading what's in front of us. Who knows. Very strange.

He reminds me of John Pennisi in a way. Both of them just kind of fell into being made because they're Italian and knew some wiseguys.