6 charged in Genovese bust

[Johnny1and1]

Let's break this down.

"Wrong" -

Why, becuase you say so?

"you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

So indictments are the only measure of activity? Or just one measure? Or just a measure of LE activity? Or any number of other possibilities?

"This can be demonstrably proven"

Not really, and specifically in your case, and based on your posts and research, you haven't done. You're asking me to make the jump that federal indictments = criminal activity. I'm not willing to do this, and this is a reasonable position.

"It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread."

You don't know this. And frankly, neither do I.

"If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

You have a Pacer subscription? This shows a lack of understanding about in which jurisdictions federal actions are brought, and where the crimes occurred. If you have a Pacer subscription, and maybe you do, you could see this clearly in the recent Colombo filings. Some of which are still sealed.


Again, you seem to speak in absolutes, and in a very unspecific manner. You're making some assumptions, and they aren't following a logical process.

What other demonstrable evidence is there, which we all can see, is there other than indictments? Or at least direct statements made my law enforcement on the matter? Especially over the long term? People, like yourself, simply posting claims on the internet is not really evidence. At least nowhere in the same universe


You really didn't address everything above.

But let's assume you have a Pacer account for purposes of debate. I doubt you do, but let's go ahead and assume. Let's also assume you have an understanding of the law. So you understand hearsay evidence is actually admissible in several instances?

That answers you question, very specifically. And I can cite exactly which hearsay exceptions apply as it regards this discussion, your posts, and my posts.

Now let's go to my unanswered questions.

You indicate I am wrong. Did you ever provide a logical argument as to why that is, other than you say so? You did not.

Did you explain how and why indictments are the only measure of criminal activity? You did not. Or any other reasonable possibility as presented above? You did not.

Following federal indictments such as you claim, did you explain why Florida shows up so many times in indictment out of the two districts in New York that these indictments most commonly come from? You did not. Tracking indictments as closely as you do, you certainly looked up residences of those indicted in New York, but living full time in Florida? Correct? I'm sure you did.

I'd encourage you to question everything I post. Which you have. But I should question what you post? Especially since you dance around and avoid any type of substantive debate, and I answer you questions fully and with specificity? I suspect you can't answer, but that's neither here nor there. I also suspect you fool some people, but I'm not one of them. Some of your posts I don't find credible, well researched, and have the tone of a fiction novel. You can, and you have said the same about my posts. But there is a difference, and it is a fairly significate one, I post links and answer your questions. You post your opinion. You really don't link anything, or offer anything outside of second hand work done by others, and you certainly dance around questions if it doesn't fir your opinion. And yet you keep arguing as if I should believe you as some sort of an expert, on information that really can't be proven, or disproven, and seem to have no first hand experience.

[Wiseguy]

I started my post with i agree the mob in the U.S. is in a general decline. Im basing that there is still plenty of activity in Florida based on all the recent busts (taking away my assumptions or opinions) and then you play semantics. It is widely known they are their operating even without indictments and articles. If Calisi is living in Boca, he is promoting his activities which im sure include bookmaking, loans, scams, etc. Where a member lives is where they promote there operations and techniques, this is how it works. And, There can still be plenty of activity even if it is not as much as it once was. Not as many indictments now is based on tons and tons in and era gone by. Apples and oranges.

A restaurant can still be good even if it isnt as good as it was.

Yes, there is still LCN activity in Florida. Nobody said otherwise. I said the amount of activity has dropped off drastically if you look over the last 20 years and, whatever is there today, doesn't appear to be that much; at least compared to the past, even the 2000's. In other words, we're saying the same shrinking footprint there that we've seen in other areas outside the NY metro area where the NY families have had a presence in the past.

"Wrong" -

Why, becuase you say so?

"you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

So indictments are the only measure of activity? Or just one measure? Or just a measure of LE activity? Or any number of other possibilities?

"This can be demonstrably proven"

Not really, and specifically in your case, and based on your posts and research, you haven't done. You're asking me to make the jump that federal indictments = criminal activity. I'm not willing to do this, and this is a reasonable position.

"It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread."

You don't know this. And frankly, neither do I.

"If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

You have a Pacer subscription? This shows a lack of understanding about in which jurisdictions federal actions are brought, and where the crimes occurred. If you have a Pacer subscription, and maybe you do, you could see this clearly in the recent Colombo filings. Some of which are still sealed.


Again, you seem to speak in absolutes, and in a very unspecific manner. You're making some assumptions, and they aren't following a logical process.


What other demonstrable evidence is there, which we all can see, is there other than indictments? Or at least direct statements made my law enforcement on the matter? Especially over the long term? People, like yourself, simply posting claims on the internet is not really evidence. At least nowhere in the same universe


You really didn't address everything above.

But let's assume you have a Pacer account for purposes of debate. I doubt you do, but let's go ahead and assume. Let's also assume you have an understanding of the law. So you understand hearsay evidence is actually admissible in several instances?

That answers you question, very specifically. And I can cite exactly which hearsay exceptions apply as it regards this discussion, your posts, and my posts.

Now let's go to my unanswered questions.

You indicate I am wrong. Did you ever provide a logical argument as to why that is, other than you say so? You did not.

Did you explain how and why indictments are the only measure of criminal activity? You did not. Or any other reasonable possibility as presented above? You did not.

Following federal indictments such as you claim, did you explain why Florida shows up so many times in indictment out of the two districts in New York that these indictments most commonly come from? You did not. Tracking indictments as closely as you do, you certainly looked up residences of those indicted in New York, but living full time in Florida? Correct? I'm sure you did.

I'd encourage you to question everything I post. Which you have. But I should question what you post? Especially since you dance around and avoid any type of substantive debate, and I answer you questions fully and with specificity? I suspect you can't answer, but that's neither here nor there. I also suspect you fool some people, but I'm not one of them. Some of your posts I don't find credible, well researched, and have the tone of a fiction novel. You can, and you have said the same about my posts. But there is a difference, and it is a fairly significate one, I post links and answer your questions. You post your opinion. You really don't link anything, or offer anything outside of second hand work done by others, and you certainly dance around questions if it doesn't fir your opinion. And yet you keep arguing as if I should believe you as some sort of an expert, on information that really can't be proven, or disproven, and seem to have no first hand experience.

What hearsay exceptions apply? I don't know what you're babbling about but no "hearsay exceptions" apply because it's hearsay. You - a nameless, faceless poster (one of hundreds) - coming on an internet forum and claiming "Florida is full of crews" or "the power comes from Tampa" is relatively worthless compared to indictments. Indictments aren't the only measure of criminal activity but they are the best, by far. But there are also reports by law enforcement, articles citing law enforcement sources, and individual comments made by well known and respected law enforcement or OC experts. Internet hearsay is at the bottom of the list, if it can even be included. It can be shown there are relatively few cases out of Florida today. Especially compared to even 15-20 years ago. One can see that that Florida is not "the future" as you claim. The mob's presence there is shrinking, not expanding or even staying the same.

Florida does show up occasionally in cases out of the Southern and Eastern Districts, or New Jersey for that matter, but they are a small minority within the overall cases out of these jurisdictions. One an indictment comes down, one can usually look at the accompanying press release that lists the defendants and their addresses. Some here and there have their listed address in Florida but, again, they are a small minority.

This isn't about my opinion vs your opinion. So don't even try that shit.

[Newyorkempire]

I started my post with i agree the mob in the U.S. is in a general decline. Im basing that there is still plenty of activity in Florida based on all the recent busts (taking away my assumptions or opinions) and then you play semantics. It is widely known they are their operating even without indictments and articles. If Calisi is living in Boca, he is promoting his activities which im sure include bookmaking, loans, scams, etc. Where a member lives is where they promote there operations and techniques, this is how it works. And, There can still be plenty of activity even if it is not as much as it once was. Not as many indictments now is based on tons and tons in and era gone by. Apples and oranges.

A restaurant can still be good even if it isnt as good as it was.

Yes, there is still LCN activity in Florida. Nobody said otherwise. I said the amount of activity has dropped off drastically if you look over the last 20 years and, whatever is there today, doesn't appear to be that much; at least compared to the past, even the 2000's. In other words, we're saying the same shrinking footprint there that we've seen in other areas outside the NY metro area where the NY families have had a presence in the past.

"Wrong" -

Why, becuase you say so?

"you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

So indictments are the only measure of activity? Or just one measure? Or just a measure of LE activity? Or any number of other possibilities?

"This can be demonstrably proven"

Not really, and specifically in your case, and based on your posts and research, you haven't done. You're asking me to make the jump that federal indictments = criminal activity. I'm not willing to do this, and this is a reasonable position.

"It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread."

You don't know this. And frankly, neither do I.

"If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

You have a Pacer subscription? This shows a lack of understanding about in which jurisdictions federal actions are brought, and where the crimes occurred. If you have a Pacer subscription, and maybe you do, you could see this clearly in the recent Colombo filings. Some of which are still sealed.


Again, you seem to speak in absolutes, and in a very unspecific manner. You're making some assumptions, and they aren't following a logical process.


What other demonstrable evidence is there, which we all can see, is there other than indictments? Or at least direct statements made my law enforcement on the matter? Especially over the long term? People, like yourself, simply posting claims on the internet is not really evidence. At least nowhere in the same universe


You really didn't address everything above.

But let's assume you have a Pacer account for purposes of debate. I doubt you do, but let's go ahead and assume. Let's also assume you have an understanding of the law. So you understand hearsay evidence is actually admissible in several instances?

That answers you question, very specifically. And I can cite exactly which hearsay exceptions apply as it regards this discussion, your posts, and my posts.

Now let's go to my unanswered questions.

You indicate I am wrong. Did you ever provide a logical argument as to why that is, other than you say so? You did not.

Did you explain how and why indictments are the only measure of criminal activity? You did not. Or any other reasonable possibility as presented above? You did not.

Following federal indictments such as you claim, did you explain why Florida shows up so many times in indictment out of the two districts in New York that these indictments most commonly come from? You did not. Tracking indictments as closely as you do, you certainly looked up residences of those indicted in New York, but living full time in Florida? Correct? I'm sure you did.

I'd encourage you to question everything I post. Which you have. But I should question what you post? Especially since you dance around and avoid any type of substantive debate, and I answer you questions fully and with specificity? I suspect you can't answer, but that's neither here nor there. I also suspect you fool some people, but I'm not one of them. Some of your posts I don't find credible, well researched, and have the tone of a fiction novel. You can, and you have said the same about my posts. But there is a difference, and it is a fairly significate one, I post links and answer your questions. You post your opinion. You really don't link anything, or offer anything outside of second hand work done by others, and you certainly dance around questions if it doesn't fir your opinion. And yet you keep arguing as if I should believe you as some sort of an expert, on information that really can't be proven, or disproven, and seem to have no first hand experience.

What hearsay exceptions apply? I don't know what you're babbling about but no "hearsay exceptions" apply because it's hearsay. You - a nameless, faceless poster (one of hundreds) - coming on an internet forum and claiming "Florida is full of crews" or "the power comes from Tampa" is relatively worthless compared to indictments. Indictments aren't the only measure of criminal activity but they are the best, by far. But there are also reports by law enforcement, articles citing law enforcement sources, and individual comments made by well known and respected law enforcement or OC experts. Internet hearsay is at the bottom of the list, if it can even be included. It can be shown there are relatively few cases out of Florida today. Especially compared to even 15-20 years ago. One can see that that Florida is not "the future" as you claim. The mob's presence there is shrinking, not expanding or even staying the same.

Florida does show up occasionally in cases out of the Southern and Eastern Districts, or New Jersey for that matter, but they are a small minority within the overall cases out of these jurisdictions. One an indictment comes down, one can usually look at the accompanying press release that lists the defendants and their addresses. Some here and there have their listed address in Florida but, again, they are a small minority.

This isn't about my opinion vs your opinion. So don't even try that shit.

Im agreeing with that. But to try and compare what is going on in Florida now to days past, based on a diminishing presence is a skewed scale. The fact we still have these huge indictments is a testament to the continued strength and survival of the mob. There doesnt need top be any homegrown family in Florida for them to take a piece of the pie. They barely need permission from Trafficante fifty years ago.

[Newyorkempire]

I would actually argue that the post 3 referenced indictments shows that there is an increasing presence if you look at the least ten years or a retention of importance. All three indictments show the huge amount of money still to be made there and how it is still an outpost. Predicting it is the future is a reach however.

[Johnny1and1]

I started my post with i agree the mob in the U.S. is in a general decline. Im basing that there is still plenty of activity in Florida based on all the recent busts (taking away my assumptions or opinions) and then you play semantics. It is widely known they are their operating even without indictments and articles. If Calisi is living in Boca, he is promoting his activities which im sure include bookmaking, loans, scams, etc. Where a member lives is where they promote there operations and techniques, this is how it works. And, There can still be plenty of activity even if it is not as much as it once was. Not as many indictments now is based on tons and tons in and era gone by. Apples and oranges.

A restaurant can still be good even if it isnt as good as it was.

Yes, there is still LCN activity in Florida. Nobody said otherwise. I said the amount of activity has dropped off drastically if you look over the last 20 years and, whatever is there today, doesn't appear to be that much; at least compared to the past, even the 2000's. In other words, we're saying the same shrinking footprint there that we've seen in other areas outside the NY metro area where the NY families have had a presence in the past.

"Wrong" -

Why, becuase you say so?

"you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

So indictments are the only measure of activity? Or just one measure? Or just a measure of LE activity? Or any number of other possibilities?

"This can be demonstrably proven"

Not really, and specifically in your case, and based on your posts and research, you haven't done. You're asking me to make the jump that federal indictments = criminal activity. I'm not willing to do this, and this is a reasonable position.

"It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread."

You don't know this. And frankly, neither do I.

"If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

You have a Pacer subscription? This shows a lack of understanding about in which jurisdictions federal actions are brought, and where the crimes occurred. If you have a Pacer subscription, and maybe you do, you could see this clearly in the recent Colombo filings. Some of which are still sealed.


Again, you seem to speak in absolutes, and in a very unspecific manner. You're making some assumptions, and they aren't following a logical process.


What other demonstrable evidence is there, which we all can see, is there other than indictments? Or at least direct statements made my law enforcement on the matter? Especially over the long term? People, like yourself, simply posting claims on the internet is not really evidence. At least nowhere in the same universe


You really didn't address everything above.

But let's assume you have a Pacer account for purposes of debate. I doubt you do, but let's go ahead and assume. Let's also assume you have an understanding of the law. So you understand hearsay evidence is actually admissible in several instances?

That answers you question, very specifically. And I can cite exactly which hearsay exceptions apply as it regards this discussion, your posts, and my posts.

Now let's go to my unanswered questions.

You indicate I am wrong. Did you ever provide a logical argument as to why that is, other than you say so? You did not.

Did you explain how and why indictments are the only measure of criminal activity? You did not. Or any other reasonable possibility as presented above? You did not.

Following federal indictments such as you claim, did you explain why Florida shows up so many times in indictment out of the two districts in New York that these indictments most commonly come from? You did not. Tracking indictments as closely as you do, you certainly looked up residences of those indicted in New York, but living full time in Florida? Correct? I'm sure you did.

I'd encourage you to question everything I post. Which you have. But I should question what you post? Especially since you dance around and avoid any type of substantive debate, and I answer you questions fully and with specificity? I suspect you can't answer, but that's neither here nor there. I also suspect you fool some people, but I'm not one of them. Some of your posts I don't find credible, well researched, and have the tone of a fiction novel. You can, and you have said the same about my posts. But there is a difference, and it is a fairly significate one, I post links and answer your questions. You post your opinion. You really don't link anything, or offer anything outside of second hand work done by others, and you certainly dance around questions if it doesn't fir your opinion. And yet you keep arguing as if I should believe you as some sort of an expert, on information that really can't be proven, or disproven, and seem to have no first hand experience.

What hearsay exceptions apply? I don't know what you're babbling about but no "hearsay exceptions" apply because it's hearsay. You - a nameless, faceless poster (one of hundreds) - coming on an internet forum and claiming "Florida is full of crews" or "the power comes from Tampa" is relatively worthless compared to indictments. Indictments aren't the only measure of criminal activity but they are the best, by far. But there are also reports by law enforcement, articles citing law enforcement sources, and individual comments made by well known and respected law enforcement or OC experts. Internet hearsay is at the bottom of the list, if it can even be included. It can be shown there are relatively few cases out of Florida today. Especially compared to even 15-20 years ago. One can see that that Florida is not "the future" as you claim. The mob's presence there is shrinking, not expanding or even staying the same.

Florida does show up occasionally in cases out of the Southern and Eastern Districts, or New Jersey for that matter, but they are a small minority within the overall cases out of these jurisdictions. One an indictment comes down, one can usually look at the accompanying press release that lists the defendants and their addresses. Some here and there have their listed address in Florida but, again, they are a small minority.

This isn't about my opinion vs your opinion. So don't even try that shit.

Largely what I thought your reply would be. It's pretty clear to me, you post your opinion, and are not credible.

Here are a couple of key takeaways from your diatribe:

"I don't know what you're babbling about but no "hearsay exceptions" apply" You don't know is the accurate part of this statement. "No hearsay exceptions apply" is telling about your lack of understanding about several areas you seem to be an "expert" in.

"You - a nameless, faceless poster (one of hundreds) " Here you are making my point for me. Yes, that is true about me. It is also true about you. Probably even more so.

" Indictments aren't the only measure of criminal activity" You actually answered a question, I give you some credit. "but they are the best" We disagree, they are only piece of evidence, that needs to be taken in context with all pieces of evidence. Including admissible hearsay, which would probably be weighed more lightly, but not ignored by any critical thinker. .

"OC experts" Ha ha. The only "experts" have first hand knowledge. That doesn't include some previously connected guys doing YouTube videos. It might be the best you got, but they are hardly experts.

"Florida does show up occasionally in cases out of the Southern and Eastern Districts, or New Jersey for that matter, but they are a small minority within the overall cases out of these jurisdictions" Ha ha ha, this shows me you have no idea what you're posting about.

"One an indictment comes down, one can usually look at the accompanying press release that lists the defendants and their addresses." This shows me where you get your information.

"Some here and there have their listed address in Florida but, again, they are a small minority." It's over 20% But you have no way to know this based on where you get your information from.

I could go on, but it's pointless. You have some good points, but largely you are to be ignored.

[Wiseguy]

Im agreeing with that. But to try and compare what is going on in Florida now to days past, based on a diminishing presence is a skewed scale. The fact we still have these huge indictments is a testament to the continued strength and survival of the mob. There doesnt need top be any homegrown family in Florida for them to take a piece of the pie. They barely need permission from Trafficante fifty years ago.

I would actually argue that the post 3 referenced indictments shows that there is an increasing presence if you look at the least ten years or a retention of importance. All three indictments show the huge amount of money still to be made there and how it is still an outpost. Predicting it is the future is a reach however.

It depends on what you mean by "continued strength and survival." Yes, the scale shows the presence of the mob in Florida is skewing downward. If I were to just look at from 2016 to present like you are, while ignoring the larger picture, I'd probably think the mob hasn't missed a beat in Florida too.

"You - a nameless, faceless poster (one of hundreds) " Here you are making my point for me. Yes, that is true about me. It is also true about you. Probably even more so.

Which is why I refer to actual evidence that we can all see, genius. Like indictments!

" Indictments aren't the only measure of criminal activity" You actually answered a question, I give you some credit. "but they are the best" We disagree, they are only piece of evidence, that needs to be taken in context with all pieces of evidence. Including admissible hearsay, which would probably be weighed more lightly, but not ignored by any critical thinker. .

Your hearsay was accepted into evidence and found wanting, Mr. Lawyer.

"OC experts" Ha ha. The only "experts" have first hand knowledge. That doesn't include some previously connected guys doing YouTube videos. It might be the best you got, but they are hardly experts.

Yes, and we've seen many so called experts with first hand knowledge come on the forums to give us all the real scoop. You're just the latest.

"Florida does show up occasionally in cases out of the Southern and Eastern Districts, or New Jersey for that matter, but they are a small minority within the overall cases out of these jurisdictions" Ha ha ha, this shows me you have no idea what you're posting about.

Now you're just lying. Or you really don't have a clue.

"One an indictment comes down, one can usually look at the accompanying press release that lists the defendants and their addresses." This shows me where you get your information.

Yes, that's where I get my information. You, being more lazy, get your's simply from articles while pretending to have inside knowledge. You're not even original.

"Some here and there have their listed address in Florida but, again, they are a small minority." It's over 20% But you have no way to know this based on where you get your information from.

20% of defendants of mob case press releases have their addresses listed in Florida? LOL. Boy you are delusional. Move along, Vacari, the jig is up.

[Johnny1and1]

"Now you're just lying. Or you really don't have a clue."

I'd say this is an accurate statement, but you're applying it to the wrong poster.

"Yes, that's where I get my information. You, being more lazy, get your's simply from articles while pretending to have inside knowledge. You're not even original."

I'd say you contradict yourself here, first admitting you get your information from newspaper articles, then projecting my information comes form newspaper articles. Previously you got one of my occupations correct in your speculation, which means I actually do have a Pacer account. One of many reason why I knew you were inaccurate, and possibly dishonest and/or disingenuous. I don't think dishonest, but I do think you lack even the sources you consider credible, by your own admission, and I suspect disingenuous.

"20% of defendants of mob case press releases have their addresses listed in Florida? LOL. Boy you are delusional. Move along, Vacari, the jig is up."

You claim to have read newspaper articles. You claim to carefully follow indictments. I claim to have a Pacer account. Should we now prove beyond a reasonable doubt who is more accurate? I guess we need to set some ground rules. Neither of us was very specific. Are we referring to the last three major indictments? Let me know, I'm happy to show you where you are incorrect.

[Newyorkempire]

Again, the presence in the least 20 years has been smaller than years passed. But in the least 10 years it has been plentiful, based on the same metrics you repeatedly force everyone to abide to. Indictments and articles. So based on that there has been a high number of indictments and articles in Florida in the last 10 years. If there is more in the next couple years it proves they really havent "missed a beat", which again is a generalized term anyways that really cant be proven or disproven. Making millions and getting indicted by RICO laws shows how strong their presence and survival is in Florida still. Adding macro trends is something that has already been done by stating "the mob isnt what it used to be". Weve said that 500x already.4 "Hooters restaurant isnt as good as it used to be but they still have nice tits". Semantics. Easily identifiable on how you lay things out.

[Johnny1and1]

@Newyorkempire To clarify, there were some posts above where I wasn't replying to you. It's difficult to tell due to multiple quoted posters, but my responses were entirely directed to another poster. If you didn't know that, and you probably did, you know know it. I'm not a talented message board poster.

Farese is what I would consider one the last major indictments due to dollar size. You have Mix, Truglia, Gatto, and the two "reported from New Jersey, but those two own Florida houses. I'll err to the side of caution, and say 3 of 5 major players are from Florida. There are others involved, and I'm not going to take the time (right now) to post the rest.

The Colombo indictment is cloudier, but out of 14, and there are more, one is reported to be living in Florida. But at least 7 more have Florida homes (and I can document that if necessary later), and operated out of Florida. I'll post more as it becomes necessary.

Little reported, but obvious connections, if only previously, the latest Mamone thing is entirely Florida. Conservatively Mamone and his kids. This indictment is interesting to debate given the history. For those that was a substantive discussion, and not some "I know more than you" useless argument. I'd add my personal insight on tis one on how tings have changed, call it a diminished LCN exposure if you will, but obviously couldn't be proven to some poster's satisfaction. Notwithstanding the fact I'm asked to believe their posts with no documentation, no link, no anything except apparently the tracking of indictments from newspaper articles.

Lastly the Genovese indictment, one from Florida, three from Connecticut and one from NY proper. I'm not even going to the fact that two had (and presumably also operated) out of Palm Beach County. Yet.

I'm counting 12 out of 24 related to Florida, some fairly significantly related to Florida. If I peel away those with loose Florida connections, it's still over 20%. And I did this quickly off the top of my head, so I'm missing names, etc. But I'm not going to do any additional work until I have to. I suspect the responses (the argumentative ones) won't require me to do any additional work in any event.

[HairyKnuckles]

Hairy knuckles just messaged me that he'll give $50 for a photo of Nicholas Calisi


(HK I jest, I jest)

Lol!

It looks likes Calisi is originally a Bronx guy, but also lived in Upstate NY at one point.

[Newyorkempire]

@Newyorkempire To clarify, there were some posts above where I wasn't replying to you. It's difficult to tell due to multiple quoted posters, but my responses were entirely directed to another poster. If you didn't know that, and you probably did, you know know it. I'm not a talented message board poster.

Farese is what I would consider one the last major indictments due to dollar size. You have Mix, Truglia, Gatto, and the two "reported from New Jersey, but those two own Florida houses. I'll err to the side of caution, and say 3 of 5 major players are from Florida. There are others involved, and I'm not going to take the time (right now) to post the rest.

The Colombo indictment is cloudier, but out of 14, and there are more, one is reported to be living in Florida. But at least 7 more have Florida homes (and I can document that if necessary later), and operated out of Florida. I'll post more as it becomes necessary.

Little reported, but obvious connections, if only previously, the latest Mamone thing is entirely Florida. Conservatively Mamone and his kids. This indictment is interesting to debate given the history. For those that was a substantive discussion, and not some "I know more than you" useless argument. I'd add my personal insight on tis one on how tings have changed, call it a diminished LCN exposure if you will, but obviously couldn't be proven to some poster's satisfaction. Notwithstanding the fact I'm asked to believe their posts with no documentation, no link, no anything except apparently the tracking of indictments from newspaper articles.

Lastly the Genovese indictment, one from Florida, three from Connecticut and one from NY proper. I'm not even going to the fact that two had (and presumably also operated) out of Palm Beach County. Yet.

I'm counting 12 out of 24 related to Florida, some fairly significantly related to Florida. If I peel away those with loose Florida connections, it's still over 20%. And I did this quickly off the top of my head, so I'm missing names, etc. But I'm not going to do any additional work until I have to. I suspect the responses (the argumentative ones) won't require me to do any additional work in any event.

Forgot about the Mamone one. That makes four recent indictments. Albeit he is a rat, he was/is made.

There is others in Tampa that are operating right now under the idea they are mob I am aware of. Younger crew associates from the last made guys from Trafficante/active Loscalzo era, possible but not probable they are made in my opinion. But I wanted to see if you would drop a name first. Havent heard of "Frankie" unless its simply Albano.

[Wiseguy]

"Now you're just lying. Or you really don't have a clue."

I'd say this is an accurate statement, but you're applying it to the wrong poster.

"Yes, that's where I get my information. You, being more lazy, get your's simply from articles while pretending to have inside knowledge. You're not even original."

I'd say you contradict yourself here, first admitting you get your information from newspaper articles, then projecting my information comes form newspaper articles. Previously you got one of my occupations correct in your speculation, which means I actually do have a Pacer account. One of many reason why I knew you were inaccurate, and possibly dishonest and/or disingenuous. I don't think dishonest, but I do think you lack even the sources you consider credible, by your own admission, and I suspect disingenuous.

"20% of defendants of mob case press releases have their addresses listed in Florida? LOL. Boy you are delusional. Move along, Vacari, the jig is up."

You claim to have read newspaper articles. You claim to carefully follow indictments. I claim to have a Pacer account. Should we now prove beyond a reasonable doubt who is more accurate? I guess we need to set some ground rules. Neither of us was very specific. Are we referring to the last three major indictments? Let me know, I'm happy to show you where you are incorrect.

@Newyorkempire To clarify, there were some posts above where I wasn't replying to you. It's difficult to tell due to multiple quoted posters, but my responses were entirely directed to another poster. If you didn't know that, and you probably did, you know know it. I'm not a talented message board poster.

Farese is what I would consider one the last major indictments due to dollar size. You have Mix, Truglia, Gatto, and the two "reported from New Jersey, but those two own Florida houses. I'll err to the side of caution, and say 3 of 5 major players are from Florida. There are others involved, and I'm not going to take the time (right now) to post the rest.

The Colombo indictment is cloudier, but out of 14, and there are more, one is reported to be living in Florida. But at least 7 more have Florida homes (and I can document that if necessary later), and operated out of Florida. I'll post more as it becomes necessary.

Little reported, but obvious connections, if only previously, the latest Mamone thing is entirely Florida. Conservatively Mamone and his kids. This indictment is interesting to debate given the history. For those that was a substantive discussion, and not some "I know more than you" useless argument. I'd add my personal insight on tis one on how tings have changed, call it a diminished LCN exposure if you will, but obviously couldn't be proven to some poster's satisfaction. Notwithstanding the fact I'm asked to believe their posts with no documentation, no link, no anything except apparently the tracking of indictments from newspaper articles.

Lastly the Genovese indictment, one from Florida, three from Connecticut and one from NY proper. I'm not even going to the fact that two had (and presumably also operated) out of Palm Beach County. Yet.

I'm counting 12 out of 24 related to Florida, some fairly significantly related to Florida. If I peel away those with loose Florida connections, it's still over 20%. And I did this quickly off the top of my head, so I'm missing names, etc. But I'm not going to do any additional work until I have to. I suspect the responses (the argumentative ones) won't require me to do any additional work in any event.

I'm referring over the timespan I've been looking at - since 2000. All mob cases involving NY families. Nowhere near 20% of the defendants listed live in Florida.

But even if you wanted to narrow it down to the last three major cases, of the 14 charged in the September 2021 Colombo case, 13 were listed in New York and 1 in New Jersey. Of the 6 charged in the recent Genovese case, 4 are listed in New York, 1 in Connecticut, and 1 in Florida. Only in the April 2021 Farese bust did you have 3 out of the 5 charged listed in Florida, while the other 2 were New Jersey. What difference does it make if some of these guys have a second home in Florida? And even then, for most of them, it's more personal than business.

If you want to look at the 2016 East Coast case, of the 46 charged 27 were listed in New York. 8 (slightly over 17%) were listed in Florida. The rest spread across New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Costa Rica, etc. But this was a case where there was involvement in Florida. Most mob cases don't have that. It was the exception, not the rule.

[Newyorkempire]

"Now you're just lying. Or you really don't have a clue."

I'd say this is an accurate statement, but you're applying it to the wrong poster.

"Yes, that's where I get my information. You, being more lazy, get your's simply from articles while pretending to have inside knowledge. You're not even original."

I'd say you contradict yourself here, first admitting you get your information from newspaper articles, then projecting my information comes form newspaper articles. Previously you got one of my occupations correct in your speculation, which means I actually do have a Pacer account. One of many reason why I knew you were inaccurate, and possibly dishonest and/or disingenuous. I don't think dishonest, but I do think you lack even the sources you consider credible, by your own admission, and I suspect disingenuous.

"20% of defendants of mob case press releases have their addresses listed in Florida? LOL. Boy you are delusional. Move along, Vacari, the jig is up."

You claim to have read newspaper articles. You claim to carefully follow indictments. I claim to have a Pacer account. Should we now prove beyond a reasonable doubt who is more accurate? I guess we need to set some ground rules. Neither of us was very specific. Are we referring to the last three major indictments? Let me know, I'm happy to show you where you are incorrect.

@Newyorkempire To clarify, there were some posts above where I wasn't replying to you. It's difficult to tell due to multiple quoted posters, but my responses were entirely directed to another poster. If you didn't know that, and you probably did, you know know it. I'm not a talented message board poster.

Farese is what I would consider one the last major indictments due to dollar size. You have Mix, Truglia, Gatto, and the two "reported from New Jersey, but those two own Florida houses. I'll err to the side of caution, and say 3 of 5 major players are from Florida. There are others involved, and I'm not going to take the time (right now) to post the rest.

The Colombo indictment is cloudier, but out of 14, and there are more, one is reported to be living in Florida. But at least 7 more have Florida homes (and I can document that if necessary later), and operated out of Florida. I'll post more as it becomes necessary.

Little reported, but obvious connections, if only previously, the latest Mamone thing is entirely Florida. Conservatively Mamone and his kids. This indictment is interesting to debate given the history. For those that was a substantive discussion, and not some "I know more than you" useless argument. I'd add my personal insight on tis one on how tings have changed, call it a diminished LCN exposure if you will, but obviously couldn't be proven to some poster's satisfaction. Notwithstanding the fact I'm asked to believe their posts with no documentation, no link, no anything except apparently the tracking of indictments from newspaper articles.

Lastly the Genovese indictment, one from Florida, three from Connecticut and one from NY proper. I'm not even going to the fact that two had (and presumably also operated) out of Palm Beach County. Yet.

I'm counting 12 out of 24 related to Florida, some fairly significantly related to Florida. If I peel away those with loose Florida connections, it's still over 20%. And I did this quickly off the top of my head, so I'm missing names, etc. But I'm not going to do any additional work until I have to. I suspect the responses (the argumentative ones) won't require me to do any additional work in any event.

I'm referring over the timespan I've been looking at - since 2000. All mob cases involving NY families. Nowhere near 20% of the defendants listed live in Florida.

But even if you wanted to narrow it down to the last three major cases, of the 14 charged in the September 2021 Colombo case, 13 were listed in New York and 1 in New Jersey. Of the 6 charged in the recent Genovese case, 4 are listed in New York, 1 in Connecticut, and 1 in Florida. Only in the April 2021 Farese bust did you have 3 out of the 5 charged listed in Florida, while the other 2 were New Jersey. What difference does it make if some of these guys have a second home in Florida? And even then, for most of them, it's more personal than business.

If you want to look at the 2016 East Coast case, of the 46 charged 27 were listed in New York. 8 (slightly over 17%) were listed in Florida. The rest spread across New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Costa Rica, etc. But this was a case where there was involvement in Florida. Most mob cases don't have that. It was the exception, not the rule.

Who cares if they live there permanent or not lol....totally irrelevant. Again. The only homegrown family was the Trafficantes and they are severely limited now. It doesnt matter of any NY guy lives there full time. It is clear the mob is active in Florida, plain and simple. Impressive to the degree they are in 2022 and shows how strong and stable it still is. Regardless of macro level trends. It is bountiful to be there and they are there in numbers as proven by the indictments that are so heavily relied upon.

[Wiseguy]

Forgot about the Mamone one. That makes four recent indictments. Albeit he is a rat, he was/is made.

There is others in Tampa that are operating right now under the idea they are mob I am aware of. Younger crew associates from the last made guys from Trafficante/active Loscalzo era, possible but not probable they are made in my opinion. But I wanted to see if you would drop a name first. Havent heard of "Frankie" unless its simply Albano.

LOL. We're counting defectors now? Does that mean the Gambinos get credit for having an ecstasy operation in Arizona when Gravano was busted?

There's nothing left of the Trafficantes except a handful of old retired guys.

If you look over the last decade, you have two cases (2012, 2021) involing Farese, Truglia and people around them. You have Genovese gambling networks extending down there through people like Patsy Capolongo. A guy in the Tuzzo bust had a check-cashing business there. You had the bookmaking and the healthcare fraud tied to Florida in the 2016 East Coast bust. And in the Russo bust you did have marijuana being driven down to Florida for distribution. There is activity. Is it "a lot" of activity? Not by past standards. And even by present standards, it could be said there is a lot of activity in the NY metro area. Not Florida. Florida has more activity than a lot of places, relatively speaking, but let's not get carried away. But I'm talking to the guy who thinks Buffalo is still around so I suppose the bar is pretty low.

[Newyorkempire]

Forgot about the Mamone one. That makes four recent indictments. Albeit he is a rat, he was/is made.

There is others in Tampa that are operating right now under the idea they are mob I am aware of. Younger crew associates from the last made guys from Trafficante/active Loscalzo era, possible but not probable they are made in my opinion. But I wanted to see if you would drop a name first. Havent heard of "Frankie" unless its simply Albano.

LOL. We're counting defectors now? Does that mean the Gambinos get credit for having an ecstasy operation in Arizona when Gravano was busted?

There's nothing left of the Trafficantes except a handful of old retired guys.

If you look over the last decade, you have two cases (2012, 2021) involing Farese, Truglia and people around them. You have Genovese gambling networks extending down there through people like Patsy Capolongo. A guy in the Tuzzo bust had a check-cashing business there. You had the bookmaking and the healthcare fraud tied to Florida in the 2016 East Coast bust. And in the Russo bust you did have marijuana being driven down to Florida for distribution. There is activity. Is it "a lot" of activity? Not by past standards. And even by present standards, it could be said there is a lot of activity in the NY metro area. Not Florida. Florida has more activity than a lot of places, relatively speaking, but let's not get carried away. But I'm talking to the guy who thinks Buffalo is still around so I suppose the bar is pretty low.

I was asking. Are we? Is Mamone still considered Mafia? Gravano is still considered so and he was a rat, no? Whats the difference. Break it down using semantics please.

Again compared to past no. That is not the argument although you try to keep pushing that it is. Do you understand a restaurant can still be good in present day but not as good as it was in the past? Im starting to worry youre missing a chromosome if that analogy doesnt make sense to you. More so than before. And this has nothing to do with Buffalo. Remember, you admitted Violi was actually the underboss? But wait, its a novelty appointment right? Dead family, just smoke and mirrors, got it, you go back and forth in logic and illogical statements that whole thread. Please share more of your semantics. They are every compelling. Youre worse than a woman, you want it both ways and get mad when the man puts you in your place. But keep pushing that if you want to, no worries. Many posters have already sided against you in that regardless, not just me. Reread the comments.

There is retired made guys from the Trafficantes yes. That wasnt the claim otherwise. They may be retired, but there is associates from that same group that may or may not have been made in the 2000s that play mob life.

To this day you play semantics, take apart indictments and cherry pick them as if youre a prosecutor but still get nowhere as an actual expert yourself. All due respect, you dont know everything and never will, and thats ok "Wise"guy, youre not suppose to or else you yourself would be a member in the mafia.