6 charged in Genovese bust

[Johnny1and1]

I can't locate the edit button, but Vito is in his 50's, not 40's as originally posted.

The Sherriff incident was a joint Colombo / Trafficante thing. The names will bear this out, and the ages of the younger ones, and their off springs will lead to more areas to research.

The Frenna incident can be found online, although it's difficult to find.

The meeting in the Pompano Beach social club (not named in the reporting) shows some, not a lot of activity in the Carolinas. There have been some recent indictments were "gentlemen" were located in the Carolinas. I'm not suggesting a crew, but am suggesting geographic location isn't limited to what we know, or think we know.

New York runs most of the show, but in one instance the power comes from Tampa. One gentleman active in at least Broward from Tampa. I'd speculate out of respct Tampa is still asked permission. I know of one legitimate sanitation operation out of Connecticut, where permission was asked both in SoFla (probably NY) and Tampa. It (appeared to me) to be a courtesy, not a requirement, and certainly wasn't a secret as I was told about it. To be fair, this observation doesn't help my argument.

[Newyorkempire]

I can't locate the edit button, but Vito is in his 50's, not 40's as originally posted.

The Sherriff incident was a joint Colombo / Trafficante thing. The names will bear this out, and the ages of the younger ones, and their off springs will lead to more areas to research.

The Frenna incident can be found online, although it's difficult to find.

The meeting in the Pompano Beach social club (not named in the reporting) shows some, not a lot of activity in the Carolinas. There have been some recent indictments were "gentlemen" were located in the Carolinas. I'm not suggesting a crew, but am suggesting geographic location isn't limited to what we know, or think we know.

New York runs most of the show, but in one instance the power comes from Tampa. One gentleman active in at least Broward from Tampa. I'd speculate out of respct Tampa is still asked permission. I know of one legitimate sanitation operation out of Connecticut, where permission was asked both in SoFla (probably NY) and Tampa. It (appeared to me) to be a courtesy, not a requirement, and certainly wasn't a secret as I was told about it. To be fair, this observation doesn't help my argument.

So you have first hand info that Loscalzo is still asked permission?

[TommyGambino]

Anybody getting a Vacari feeling around here?

Bingo, was going to post the same

[Johnny1and1]

[/quote]

Who is this "one at least" in Tampa you claim? And run by who?
[/quote]

Frank or Frankie is all I know. I've been told I've seen him at the caffe. That's all I know. I'm on a Discord, and it was suggested as a possibility Aloi. That doesn't make sense. To me at least. Someone else suggested Albano, and I asked for a recent photo, which would be helpful to me.

So I don't know, and am trying to do some research, specifically recent photographs, which are difficult to find.

If I haven't seen it, or heard it from someone I trust, I'm going to answer honestly. I don't know. But based on my sources, I believe the general assumption I'm making is true. And it makes sense becuase Raffa really ran the caffe back in the day, and that cements my belief about Tampa, largely diminished, but still around. It also adds to my assumption that Tampa, what little is left, one person I'm told, cooperates with the Colombos in Pompano. What I know about that is some slots, bookmaking and card games. The bookmaking is pretty large. The drug part and Aruba I'm less confident about, but I know several of the guys than hang where I do travel back and forth to Aruba, so I've drawn some possible conclusions. And I'm not sure which famiglia, or how they came to be connected.

Take it for what it is worth. Some post based on newspaper article and federal court documents. Their posts are as accurate as those sources. I post based on an entirely different set of documentation, and my posts are either as accurate, or inaccurate as things I see, think I see, or am told.

Keeping in mind even if I'm told, or see something, I'm drawing conclusions based on this, and my conclusions are open to interpretation.

I don't have a broad awareness of everything that happens in the US or world wide. I have an understanding based on experiences and relationships in two areas of the Midwest, one a state barely hanging on, but thought to be a nonexistent presence by conventional wisdom, another place is Milwaukee, Florida, and my understanding of NY and Connecticut comes from Florida. So a very narrow scope.

These are just some observations and posts to consider. I wouldn't make the assumption that my posts are credible, I'd just consider them. To be fair, I also wouldn't make the assumption that other's post are credible either. I just kind of piece things together in my own way, based on my experiences. I'd suggest my experiences are probably different than others on here, and come from entirely different things and places. AS close as one can get the the truth might lie someplace in between.

[Wiseguy]

Great word usage here. Outpost... I like that. I'm applying that to Canada from now on... outpost.

Montreal was an outpost for the Bonannos at one time. I don't think that term applies to Canada for the American LCN today.

Florida is full of crews. As in all over the place. Whether there are newspaper articles about this, or not.

One of the reasons is there is no one to run to, and some on here will understand what that means.

Some are active both in (mostly) NYC and Fla, but also Connecticut, Detroit, at least one in Tampa. I don't know about other places. Not to say other places aren't active, but I've not witnessed this. I'd speculate Merlino isn't in a bubble down there, but I've never seen it.

Famiglia cooperate with other famiglia. The lines are blurry, not neatly outlined in some blog, or YouTube video.

There is a Canadian connection, and it is more extensive than one might think from conventional reporting.

There is a connection to Aruba for obvious reasons. Whether this is NY based out of Florida, or Florida based out of NY is debatable, but necessarily this happens out of Florida. Again for obvious reasons. Like convenient travel.

I'm talking about a crew in the sense of a self-standing crew, led by a captain, based in Florida. The state is not full of these and there's no evidence otherwise. I'm not talking about some members or associates who are part of a New York-based crew that are active in Florida. Or some hangers on around a guy like Joey Merlino in Boca.

I can't locate the edit button, but Vito is in his 50's, not 40's as originally posted.

The Sherriff incident was a joint Colombo / Trafficante thing. The names will bear this out, and the ages of the younger ones, and their off springs will lead to more areas to research.

The Frenna incident can be found online, although it's difficult to find.

The meeting in the Pompano Beach social club (not named in the reporting) shows some, not a lot of activity in the Carolinas. There have been some recent indictments were "gentlemen" were located in the Carolinas. I'm not suggesting a crew, but am suggesting geographic location isn't limited to what we know, or think we know.

New York runs most of the show, but in one instance the power comes from Tampa. One gentleman active in at least Broward from Tampa. I'd speculate out of respct Tampa is still asked permission. I know of one legitimate sanitation operation out of Connecticut, where permission was asked both in SoFla (probably NY) and Tampa. It (appeared to me) to be a courtesy, not a requirement, and certainly wasn't a secret as I was told about it. To be fair, this observation doesn't help my argument.

This is sounding more and more like fantasy land straight from Vacari's imagination.

[Newyorkempire]

Great word usage here. Outpost... I like that. I'm applying that to Canada from now on... outpost.

Montreal was an outpost for the Bonannos at one time. I don't think that term applies to Canada for the American LCN today.

Florida is full of crews. As in all over the place. Whether there are newspaper articles about this, or not.

One of the reasons is there is no one to run to, and some on here will understand what that means.

Some are active both in (mostly) NYC and Fla, but also Connecticut, Detroit, at least one in Tampa. I don't know about other places. Not to say other places aren't active, but I've not witnessed this. I'd speculate Merlino isn't in a bubble down there, but I've never seen it.

Famiglia cooperate with other famiglia. The lines are blurry, not neatly outlined in some blog, or YouTube video.

There is a Canadian connection, and it is more extensive than one might think from conventional reporting.

There is a connection to Aruba for obvious reasons. Whether this is NY based out of Florida, or Florida based out of NY is debatable, but necessarily this happens out of Florida. Again for obvious reasons. Like convenient travel.

I'm talking about a crew in the sense of a self-standing crew, led by a captain, based in Florida. The state is not full of these and there's no evidence otherwise. I'm not talking about some members or associates who are part of a New York-based crew that are active in Florida. Or some hangers on around a guy like Joey Merlino in Boca.

I can't locate the edit button, but Vito is in his 50's, not 40's as originally posted.

The Sherriff incident was a joint Colombo / Trafficante thing. The names will bear this out, and the ages of the younger ones, and their off springs will lead to more areas to research.

The Frenna incident can be found online, although it's difficult to find.

The meeting in the Pompano Beach social club (not named in the reporting) shows some, not a lot of activity in the Carolinas. There have been some recent indictments were "gentlemen" were located in the Carolinas. I'm not suggesting a crew, but am suggesting geographic location isn't limited to what we know, or think we know.

New York runs most of the show, but in one instance the power comes from Tampa. One gentleman active in at least Broward from Tampa. I'd speculate out of respct Tampa is still asked permission. I know of one legitimate sanitation operation out of Connecticut, where permission was asked both in SoFla (probably NY) and Tampa. It (appeared to me) to be a courtesy, not a requirement, and certainly wasn't a secret as I was told about it. To be fair, this observation doesn't help my argument.

This is sounding more and more like fantasy land straight from Vacari's imagination.

Not the right usage for the term "hanger ons" for Joey's Florida crew. Clearly, through the evidence of the big East Coast LCN indictment he had Florida natives who were part of a crew making big money in Florida. Same goes for the investor of the restaurant who was dumping tons of money into Joey's pockets. A "hanger on"would be a Pete Tuccio. Again, an apples and oranges variety in your comparisons.

[Wiseguy]

Not the right usage for the term "hanger ons" for Joey's Florida crew. Clearly, through the evidence of the big East Coast LCN indictment he had Florida natives who were part of a crew making big money in Florida. Same goes for the investor of the restaurant who was dumping tons of money into Joey's pockets. A "hanger on"would be a Pete Tuccio. Again, an apples and oranges variety in your comparisons.

If they - whether the guys in the East Coast indictment or the ones named in the Wikileaks report - were at the associate level (a flexible term, I know), I have no problem with that. But it's still not really what I'm talking about in terms of a Florida-based crew.

[Newyorkempire]

Not the right usage for the term "hanger ons" for Joey's Florida crew. Clearly, through the evidence of the big East Coast LCN indictment he had Florida natives who were part of a crew making big money in Florida. Same goes for the investor of the restaurant who was dumping tons of money into Joey's pockets. A "hanger on"would be a Pete Tuccio. Again, an apples and oranges variety in your comparisons.

If they - whether the guys in the East Coast indictment or the ones named in the Wikileaks report - were at the associate level (a flexible term, I know), I have no problem with that. But it's still not really what I'm talking about in terms of a Florida-based crew.

Fair

[Johnny1and1]

This is sounding more and more like fantasy land straight from Vacari's imagination.

It seems to me that you value your assumptions, and do not value other's assumptions. You don't even seem willing to open yourself up to the possibility of other potential views. A quick search of your posts show, that just like my posts, they are largely assumptions, and not really fact based. Unless you consider newspaper reports and federal court filings as 100% accurate. I don't. You probably treat them as more credible than I do. I don't think you'd stipulate to this though. I also think these things aren't mutually exclusive. Do you see and understand the difference in that I can admit I might be wrong, and others not so much? My posts take a bit of a leap of faith. But so do federal court documents that have been proven to be inaccurate. And neither side is ever going to get to the absolute truth.

I'd also say imagination, as it regards the original news in this thread, would be to downplay the fact that three arrested persons actually do live in Connecticut, have homes there, and that is documented. I suspect you haven't even bothered to look this up. Because if you did, you'd see that three are Connecticut residents. But apparently you seem to know more, becuase property tax records and news reports aren't accurate, but I should instead believe you. Because I guess you have posted (linked newspaper articles) longer. I get the sense that the newspaper stories you are aware of, and that you like, are credible to you. But the newspaper stories you are unaware of, or happen to not like, are not credible. That's an interesting methodology for anyone who might want to learn as much as possible about any given subject.

But I do defend your right to have your own opinion. I'll even read your posts and consider them. I'll defend your right to value your own opinion in any manner you see fit. I'll probably not pay too much attention to your one liners, based on nothing, but stated as fact. And I'd expect my posts to be treated the same way by anyone with critical thinking, and anyone who applies logic. I welcome criticism and disagreement on what I post. I'm not convinced that you do. I view criticism and disagreement as an opportunity to learn more, not an attack. You don't seem to. You might be surprised that when you state you doubt there are actual operating crews in Florida, and even though I've disagreed, I took some time to actually consider what you said, and why you said it. There is some merit in this position. But based on what I view to be credible sources, and what I've personally witnessed, I just happen to disagree.

You do see the difference in the way we post? My posts are largely prefaced with phrases like "it seems to me", as one example. Your posts are largely "this is the way it is", becuase I guess you have all the facts. One style indicates a person who is open to discussion and other possibilities. The other style isn't worthy of serious consideration in my view.

So we disagree. I've gone to great lengths to explain why I disagree in as respectful of a manner as I can, and I've posted some supporting links for my view.

It is a given that you have a broader overall knowledge of all of this. Because I really don't do a lot of research, and am mostly uninterested in YouTube videos, etc., which seem to glamourize the lifestyle when I know better. But that doesn't change that everything I've posted is based on real life experiences, albeit limited. There isn't one items that I've posted that I'll retract, even while stipulating that the conclusions I draw are debatable. Just as the conclusions you make are debatable.

[Wiseguy]

It seems to me that you value your assumptions, and do not value other's assumptions. You don't even seem willing to open yourself up to the possibility of other potential views. A quick search of your posts show, that just like my posts, they are largely assumptions, and not really fact based. Unless you consider newspaper reports and federal court filings as 100% accurate. I don't. You probably treat them as more credible than I do. I don't think you'd stipulate to this though. I also think these things aren't mutually exclusive. Do you see and understand the difference in that I can admit I might be wrong, and others not so much? My posts take a bit of a leap of faith. But so do federal court documents that have been proven to be inaccurate. And neither side is ever going to get to the absolute truth.

I'd also say imagination, as it regards the original news in this thread, would be to downplay the fact that three arrested persons actually do live in Connecticut, have homes there, and that is documented. I suspect you haven't even bothered to look this up. Because if you did, you'd see that three are Connecticut residents. But apparently you seem to know more, becuase property tax records and news reports aren't accurate, but I should instead believe you. Because I guess you have posted (linked newspaper articles) longer. I get the sense that the newspaper stories you are aware of, and that you like, are credible to you. But the newspaper stories you are unaware of, or happen to not like, are not credible. That's an interesting methodology for anyone who might want to learn as much as possible about any given subject.

But I do defend your right to have your own opinion. I'll even read your posts and consider them. I'll defend your right to value your own opinion in any manner you see fit. I'll probably not pay too much attention to your one liners, based on nothing, but stated as fact. And I'd expect my posts to be treated the same way by anyone with critical thinking, and anyone who applies logic. I welcome criticism and disagreement on what I post. I'm not convinced that you do. I view criticism and disagreement as an opportunity to learn more, not an attack. You don't seem to. You might be surprised that when you state you doubt there are actual operating crews in Florida, and even though I've disagreed, I took some time to actually consider what you said, and why you said it. There is some merit in this position. But based on what I view to be credible sources, and what I've personally witnessed, I just happen to disagree.

You do see the difference in the way we post? My posts are largely prefaced with phrases like "it seems to me", as one example. Your posts are largely "this is the way it is", becuase I guess you have all the facts. One style indicates a person who is open to discussion and other possibilities. The other style isn't worthy of serious consideration in my view.

So we disagree. I've gone to great lengths to explain why I disagree in as respectful of a manner as I can, and I've posted some supporting links for my view.

It is a given that you have a broader overall knowledge of all of this. Because I really don't do a lot of research, and am mostly uninterested in YouTube videos, etc., which seem to glamourize the lifestyle when I know better. But that doesn't change that everything I've posted is based on real life experiences, albeit limited. There isn't one items that I've posted that I'll retract, even while stipulating that the conclusions I draw are debatable. Just as the conclusions you make are debatable.

Wrong. If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years. We can also see the lack of active crews based in Florida. Same goes for Connecticut and Springfield. This can be demonstrably proven. It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread.

[Johnny1and1]

Wrong. If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years. We can also see the lack of active crews based in Florida. Same goes for Connecticut and Springfield. This can be demonstrably proven. It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread.
[/quote]

Let's break this down.

"Wrong" -

Why, becuase you say so?

"you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

So indictments are the only measure of activity? Or just one measure? Or just a measure of LE activity? Or any number of other possibilities?

"This can be demonstrably proven"

Not really, and specifically in your case, and based on your posts and research, you haven't done. You're asking me to make the jump that federal indictments = criminal activity. I'm not willing to do this, and this is a reasonable position.

"It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread."

You don't know this. And frankly, neither do I.

"If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

You have a Pacer subscription? This shows a lack of understanding about in which jurisdictions federal actions are brought, and where the crimes occurred. If you have a Pacer subscription, and maybe you do, you could see this clearly in the recent Colombo filings. Some of which are still sealed.


Again, you seem to speak in absolutes, and in a very unspecific manner. You're making some assumptions, and they aren't following a logical process.

[Newyorkempire]

It seems to me that you value your assumptions, and do not value other's assumptions. You don't even seem willing to open yourself up to the possibility of other potential views. A quick search of your posts show, that just like my posts, they are largely assumptions, and not really fact based. Unless you consider newspaper reports and federal court filings as 100% accurate. I don't. You probably treat them as more credible than I do. I don't think you'd stipulate to this though. I also think these things aren't mutually exclusive. Do you see and understand the difference in that I can admit I might be wrong, and others not so much? My posts take a bit of a leap of faith. But so do federal court documents that have been proven to be inaccurate. And neither side is ever going to get to the absolute truth.

I'd also say imagination, as it regards the original news in this thread, would be to downplay the fact that three arrested persons actually do live in Connecticut, have homes there, and that is documented. I suspect you haven't even bothered to look this up. Because if you did, you'd see that three are Connecticut residents. But apparently you seem to know more, becuase property tax records and news reports aren't accurate, but I should instead believe you. Because I guess you have posted (linked newspaper articles) longer. I get the sense that the newspaper stories you are aware of, and that you like, are credible to you. But the newspaper stories you are unaware of, or happen to not like, are not credible. That's an interesting methodology for anyone who might want to learn as much as possible about any given subject.

But I do defend your right to have your own opinion. I'll even read your posts and consider them. I'll defend your right to value your own opinion in any manner you see fit. I'll probably not pay too much attention to your one liners, based on nothing, but stated as fact. And I'd expect my posts to be treated the same way by anyone with critical thinking, and anyone who applies logic. I welcome criticism and disagreement on what I post. I'm not convinced that you do. I view criticism and disagreement as an opportunity to learn more, not an attack. You don't seem to. You might be surprised that when you state you doubt there are actual operating crews in Florida, and even though I've disagreed, I took some time to actually consider what you said, and why you said it. There is some merit in this position. But based on what I view to be credible sources, and what I've personally witnessed, I just happen to disagree.

You do see the difference in the way we post? My posts are largely prefaced with phrases like "it seems to me", as one example. Your posts are largely "this is the way it is", becuase I guess you have all the facts. One style indicates a person who is open to discussion and other possibilities. The other style isn't worthy of serious consideration in my view.

So we disagree. I've gone to great lengths to explain why I disagree in as respectful of a manner as I can, and I've posted some supporting links for my view.

It is a given that you have a broader overall knowledge of all of this. Because I really don't do a lot of research, and am mostly uninterested in YouTube videos, etc., which seem to glamourize the lifestyle when I know better. But that doesn't change that everything I've posted is based on real life experiences, albeit limited. There isn't one items that I've posted that I'll retract, even while stipulating that the conclusions I draw are debatable. Just as the conclusions you make are debatable.

Wrong. If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years. We can also see the lack of active crews based in Florida. Same goes for Connecticut and Springfield. This can be demonstrably proven. It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread.

No doubt the mob has declined in the U.S. in general but i do believe there to be a lot of activity in Florida. It is just less of a priority (being that there are every other ethnic group's organization operating there) until it gets to the point of the Merlino and Farese cases (this shows an uptick in high level indictments in Florida not a decline) where they are making tons of money and the hammer has to drop. And now a Genovese captain operating in Boca in this bust. These three recent indictments show there is still plenty of activity there. Trying to argue that there isnt a homegrown Florida crew is irrelevant. We know this already. The Trafficantes have been limited for years, so naturally NY crews operating in Florida would be loosely structured as they were never technically based there.

[Johnny1and1]

[/quote]

No doubt the mob has declined in the U.S. in general but i do believe there to be a lot of activity in Florida. It is just less of a priority (being that there are every other ethnic group's organization operating there) until it gets to the point of the Merlino and Farese cases (this shows an uptick in high level indictments in Florida not a decline) where they are making tons of money and the hammer has to drop. And now a Genovese captain operating in Boca in this bust. These three recent indictments show there is still plenty of activity there. Trying to argue that there isnt a homegrown Florida crew is irrelevant. We know this already. The Trafficantes have been limited for years, so naturally NY crews operating in Florida would be loosely structured as they were never technically based there.
[/quote]

This is well stated, and a position I'd largely agree with. I'd base this on my personal experience, which admittedly should be questioned, but also on a lot of actual data, some of which is referenced above by @Newyorkempire, and some links posted by myself previously.

No one has 100% of the answer, only opinions based on different things.

[Wiseguy]

Let's break this down.

"Wrong" -

Why, becuase you say so?

"you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

So indictments are the only measure of activity? Or just one measure? Or just a measure of LE activity? Or any number of other possibilities?

"This can be demonstrably proven"

Not really, and specifically in your case, and based on your posts and research, you haven't done. You're asking me to make the jump that federal indictments = criminal activity. I'm not willing to do this, and this is a reasonable position.

"It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread."

You don't know this. And frankly, neither do I.

"If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

You have a Pacer subscription? This shows a lack of understanding about in which jurisdictions federal actions are brought, and where the crimes occurred. If you have a Pacer subscription, and maybe you do, you could see this clearly in the recent Colombo filings. Some of which are still sealed.


Again, you seem to speak in absolutes, and in a very unspecific manner. You're making some assumptions, and they aren't following a logical process.

What other demonstrable evidence is there, which we all can see, is there other than indictments? Or at least direct statements made my law enforcement on the matter? Especially over the long term? People, like yourself, simply posting claims on the internet is not really evidence. At least nowhere in the same universe

No doubt the mob has declined in the U.S. in general but i do believe there to be a lot of activity in Florida. It is just less of a priority (being that there are every other ethnic group's organization operating there) until it gets to the point of the Merlino and Farese cases (this shows an uptick in high level indictments in Florida not a decline) where they are making tons of money and the hammer has to drop. And now a Genovese captain operating in Boca in this bust. These three recent indictments show there is still plenty of activity there. Trying to argue that there isnt a homegrown Florida crew is irrelevant. We know this already. The Trafficantes have been limited for years, so naturally NY crews operating in Florida would be loosely structured as they were never technically based there.

This is the problem that comes from making a judgement only on recent cases that come to mind and not looking far enough back to see larger trends. As I said, in the 2000's there were dozens of mob cases in Florida. The second decade it dropped to less than 10. That's a clear and significant decline. Merlino and some others being caught up in a largely NY bust and Farese's recent indictment doesn't change that. We don't know really anything about Calisi other than he has a residence in Florida.

It's unlikely that they have a whole detached crew operating in Florida. The last time we had some big news about Genovese's activities down there was from the Ruggiero indictment in 2006-2007. He was the South Florida capo and overseer of all Genovese activities in the state, but technically he was in charge of a Brooklyn crew. He even had to fly in muscle from New York for the more complex extortion jobs.

Anthony Lanza was in a similar situation in the 90s. He lived and operated in the Tampa - Saint Petersburg area but was in charge of a Brooklyn-based crew. I suspect Calisi's deal is similar.

This does bring up the question of how many crews over the years have actually been truly Florida-based. Maybe you, Pogo or others can weigh in but, looking at the succession charts, they seem to be few and far between.

I'm not sure the Genovese family ever had one. Several NY-based crews that had activity in Florida over the years, or course. I don't think the Bonannos or Luccheses did either.

For the Colombos, the ones listed are a Florida crew (1970's to 1980's) led by a succession of James Clemenza, John Matera and Anthony Iduisi, as well as another Florida crew (2000s) led by Reynold Maragni and Thomas Farese.

For the Gambinos, the ones listed are a Florida crew (1950s to 1960s) led by a succession of Agostino Amato, Joseph Silesi, and Thomas Altamura. Another crew that apparently broke off from the NY-based Ettore Zappi crew in the 1980s and was led by Frank D'Apolito. And then a third (1990's to 2000's) led by a succession of Anthony Morelli, Iggy Alogna, and Vincent Artuso.

How many of these were like Ruggiero, where you had a NY captain move down to Florida but his crew was still NY-based?

I’m pretty sure they mean close enough these guys ain’t exactly Himmler tracing back your ancestors and measuring skulls

I agree. None of this "tracing your family back to the old country" ala Goodfellas. Maybe that could be done to an extent in earlier generations. But today I wouldn't be surprised if "100% Italian" was considered a family knowing a guy's father and mother (and by extension their fathers) had Italian last names. That would probably suffice today, regardless of one ultimately found if one of them were to take an Ancestry DNA test.

[Newyorkempire]

Let's break this down.

"Wrong" -

Why, becuase you say so?

"you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

So indictments are the only measure of activity? Or just one measure? Or just a measure of LE activity? Or any number of other possibilities?

"This can be demonstrably proven"

Not really, and specifically in your case, and based on your posts and research, you haven't done. You're asking me to make the jump that federal indictments = criminal activity. I'm not willing to do this, and this is a reasonable position.

"It's nothing like what you've been claiming in this thread."

You don't know this. And frankly, neither do I.

"If you follow the indictments like I do, you can see the steep decline in mob indictments out of Florida over the past 10 or 12 years."

You have a Pacer subscription? This shows a lack of understanding about in which jurisdictions federal actions are brought, and where the crimes occurred. If you have a Pacer subscription, and maybe you do, you could see this clearly in the recent Colombo filings. Some of which are still sealed.


Again, you seem to speak in absolutes, and in a very unspecific manner. You're making some assumptions, and they aren't following a logical process.

What other demonstrable evidence is there, which we all can see, is there other than indictments? Or at least direct statements made my law enforcement on the matter? Especially over the long term? People, like yourself, simply posting claims on the internet is not really evidence. At least nowhere in the same universe

No doubt the mob has declined in the U.S. in general but i do believe there to be a lot of activity in Florida. It is just less of a priority (being that there are every other ethnic group's organization operating there) until it gets to the point of the Merlino and Farese cases (this shows an uptick in high level indictments in Florida not a decline) where they are making tons of money and the hammer has to drop. And now a Genovese captain operating in Boca in this bust. These three recent indictments show there is still plenty of activity there. Trying to argue that there isnt a homegrown Florida crew is irrelevant. We know this already. The Trafficantes have been limited for years, so naturally NY crews operating in Florida would be loosely structured as they were never technically based there.

This is the problem that comes from making a judgement only on recent cases that come to mind and not looking far enough back to see larger trends. As I said, in the 2000's there were dozens of mob cases in Florida. The second decade it dropped to less than 10. That's a clear and significant decline. Merlino and some others being caught up in a largely NY bust and Farese's recent indictment doesn't change that. We don't know really anything about Calisi other than he has a residence in Florida.

It's unlikely that they have a whole detached crew operating in Florida. The last time we had some big news about Genovese's activities down there was from the Ruggiero indictment in 2006-2007. He was the South Florida capo and overseer of all Genovese activities in the state, but technically he was in charge of a Brooklyn crew. He even had to fly in muscle from New York for the more complex extortion jobs.

Anthony Lanza was in a similar situation in the 90s. He lived and operated in the Tampa - Saint Petersburg area but was in charge of a Brooklyn-based crew. I suspect Calisi's deal is similar.

This does bring up the question of how many crews over the years have actually been truly Florida-based. Maybe you, Pogo or others can weigh in but, looking at the succession charts, they seem to be few and far between.

I'm not sure the Genovese family ever had one. Several NY-based crews that had activity in Florida over the years, or course. I don't think the Bonannos or Luccheses did either.

For the Colombos, the ones listed are a Florida crew (1970's to 1980's) led by a succession of James Clemenza, John Matera and Anthony Iduisi, as well as another Florida crew (2000s) led by Reynold Maragni and Thomas Farese.

For the Gambinos, the ones listed are a Florida crew (1950s to 1960s) led by a succession of Agostino Amato, Joseph Silesi, and Thomas Altamura. Another crew that apparently broke off from the NY-based Ettore Zappi crew in the 1980s and was led by Frank D'Apolito. And then a third (1990's to 2000's) led by a succession of Anthony Morelli, Iggy Alogna, and Vincent Artuso.

How many of these were like Ruggiero, where you had a NY captain move down to Florida but his crew was still NY-based?

I’m pretty sure they mean close enough these guys ain’t exactly Himmler tracing back your ancestors and measuring skulls

I agree. None of this "tracing your family back to the old country" ala Goodfellas. Maybe that could be done to an extent in earlier generations. But today I wouldn't be surprised if "100% Italian" was considered a family knowing a guy's father and mother (and by extension their fathers) had Italian last names. That would probably suffice today, regardless of one ultimately found if one of them were to take an Ancestry DNA test.

I started my post with i agree the mob in the U.S. is in a general decline. Im basing that there is still plenty of activity in Florida based on all the recent busts (taking away my assumptions or opinions) and then you play semantics. It is widely known they are their operating even without indictments and articles. If Calisi is living in Boca, he is promoting his activities which im sure include bookmaking, loans, scams, etc. Where a member lives is where they promote there operations and techniques, this is how it works. And, There can still be plenty of activity even if it is not as much as it once was. Not as many indictments now is based on tons and tons in and era gone by. Apples and oranges.

A restaurant can still be good even if it isnt as good as it was.