Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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NickleCity
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by NickleCity »

Came across some interesting information on Coppola's becoming the Assistant DA in WNY and the US Attorney that hired him. He was hired by Dennis Vacco in February of 1992 and assigned to prosecute narcotics cases. More importantly, this created a bit of a stir in Buffalo's legal community. Dan Herbeck writes:
"Vacco got some heat for hiring Coppola. Federal prosecution jobs are much sought-after in Buffalo.Federal prosecution jobs are much sought-after in Buffalo. Some lawyers felt that, by hiring the inexperienced Coppola, Vacco was pandering to the media.”
Even more interesting is that Murdered Mob Boss Joe Colombo's son Chris is recorded indicating he had Vacco in his pocket when he was the NYS Attorney General. The New York Daily Newswrites:
ACCUSED WISEGUY Christopher Colombo had his favorites among the state's top prosecutors, and Eliot Spitzer wasn't among them. "That Spitzer is the worst," Colombo told a crooked contractor whom Spitzer, as state attorney general, was investigating for swindling $1.1 million from elderly clients in 2001. The contractor was wearing a wire and recorded Colombo - the star of the short-lived reality show "House Arrest" - raving about Spitzer's predecessor, Dennis Vacco. "Vacco was the best," Colombo told John Sitterly during a 2001 meeting at an Orange County jewelry store. "I had a hook in him. And he [Spitzer] had [it out for me] because I backed Vacco, right, at a fund-raiser."
See https://www.nydailynews.com/news/spitze ... e-1.262462

The New York Post wrote:
“Spitzer is the worst. Vacco was the best. He didn’t care about anything. I had a hook in him,” Colombo tells an alleged loan-sharking victim in a shocking Jan. 19, 2001, recording, played yesterday in Manhattan federal court.
See https://nypost.com/2007/01/25/mob-boss- ... in-albany/

If it is true that Chris Colombo had "a hook in" Vacco while he was NYS Attorney General, one can't help if he was compromised by the mob in Buffalo while he was the US DA for WNY.

Here is some more information on Vacco.
Career
1978-1988 Erie County Assistant District Attorney
1988-1993 US District Attorney for WDNY
1995-1998 NYS Attorney General
1999-???? Job with Waste Management as Seneca Lobbyist after Breaking-up NY Carting
20??-???? Crane & Vacco Lobbying Firm

NYS Attorney General Dennis Vacco shook up NYS OC Task Force so it didn't focus so much on Italians.
“Vacco, 42, said he has been taking an especially close look at the State Organized Crime Task Force, headed by Goldstock, and the State Medicaid Fraud Task Force."I think we can do a much better job in both areas," Vacco said.

Goldstock, 50, director of the Organized Crime Unit, could be one of the first victims of the shake-up. A deputy attorney general, Goldstock is jointly appointed by the governor and the attorney general. The appointment may be rescinded at any time.

Goldstock has become a national figure in the area of mob prosecutions and is frequently seen giving expert commentary on ABC's Nightline and other network news shows. He heads an office of about 100 people.”



“Vacco said he would like the task force to have more involvement in prosecutions of organized crime groups other than Italians, such as the LA Boys street gang in Buffalo.””
See https://buffalonews.com/news/vacco-is-p ... 9851a.html



While NYS Attorney General Vacco was accused of misdirecting and losing funds from a freight company's forfeiture agreement for after it was a caught giving monies to the Lucchese crime Family.
The freight company, Amerford International Corporation, had been caught, by both the federal government and the state attorney general's office, firing a few dozen of its shipping clerks at Kennedy International Airport and handing the money from the saved wages to the Lucchese crime family. The forfeiture agreement called for the state's Organized Crime Task Force to distribute the money to the clerks who had been wrongly fired.
But on Thursday, a federal judge ruled that the attorney general at the time, Dennis C. Vacco, had apparently violated the agreement by funneling about $1.5 million of the forfeited money into the task force's coffers. And, according to the judge's ruling, that money was never accounted for and remains missing
See https://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/01/nyre ... llion.html

When Vacco left NYS Attorney General people questioned his ethics in taking a positions with Modern Disposal. The New York Times wrote:
Dennis C. Vacco, who lost his bid for a second term as State Attorney General in November, announced today that he was taking a position as a senior lobbyist with Waste Management Inc., a large waste disposal conglomerate that has been steadily expanding in the Northeast.

Mr. Vacco is to serve as vice president for government affairs for New York, New England and Canada, he said in a statement. The job will put him at the center of the swirl of controversies that typically surround the industry, from persuading government regulators to accept imported garbage in their areas to fighting organized crime.

...

The move by Mr. Vacco comes several weeks after he negotiated an antitrust settlement with Waste Management as one of his last acts before leaving office.
See https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/19/nyre ... auler.html

The NY Post wrote:
ALBANY – Former Attorney General Dennis Vacco is close to taking a senior post with Waste Management Inc., the nation’s largest garbage hauling firm, sources said last night.

Vacco, a Buffalo Republican who narrowly lost the November election to Democrat Eliot Spitzer, could decide as soon as today to become a senior “government relations” vice president with the company, responsible for lobbying and other special projects, a source familiar with the situation said.

The job pays “in the comfortable six figures,” the source said.

Attempts to reach Vacco, a onetime U.S. Attorney for the Western District of New York, were unsuccessful, but it was learned that he has been discussing the job offer with close associates including Mayor Giuliani.

Waste Management was one of several major waste-hauling businesses that entered the Manhattan carting business in 1996 in order to bring down prices in the wake of District Attorney Robert Morgenthau’s prosecution of the local mob-controlled cartel.

They had controlled the local garbage business for generations. Scattered claims have linked Waste Management to improper or illegal conduct.
See https://nypost.com/1999/02/18/vacco-may ... exclusive/
See also https://buffalonews.com/news/spitzer-fi ... c4612.html

Vacco had battled the FBI about an OC investigation with Sacco as informant while US DA WNY
“Sacco, 63, a longtime Buffalo mob associate, was supposed to be a major informant in a federal racketeering case against local organized crime leaders Instead, his case is an embarrassment for Vacco and the FBI.”
See https://buffalonews.com/news/informant- ... 36d78.html
See also https://buffalonews.com/news/vacco-tiff ... 5830e.html

Crane and Vacco's lobbying firm over its lobbying and casino deals
The Times Herald Record wrote:
Albany — The state's top lobbying watchdog wants a criminal investigation into former state Attorney General Dennis Vacco's casino development dealings.

David Grandeau, executive director of the state Lobbying Commission, said yesterday he expects to recommend an investigation into a consulting contract Vacco's lobbying firm prepared for the Seneca-Cayuga tribe of Oklahoma and Rochester developer Tom Wilmot.

Under the 2004 contract, Wilmot and the tribe would pay Vacco's firm, Crane & Vacco, a $5 million success fee if the tribe gets approvals to open a Catskills casino. Contingency fees are illegal under state lobbying law.
See https://www.recordonline.com/story/news ... 121098007/

The Times Union in Albany wrote:
The state Temporary Commission on Lobbying agreed today to set up a civil penalty hearing against the Crane & Vacco lobbying firm for allegedly breaking the law by setting up a contingency fee that would have awarded the lobbyists richly if a tribal casino were built in New York.
The investigation stems from a case the firm proposed settling for $50,000 but reneged. Now it faces $325,000 for failing to disclose the illegal “success fee” contract and not filing reports about it and instead filing a “false” report.
The case involves a 2004 deal first reported in the Times Union about a deal between the lobbying firm, led by James Crane and Dennis Vacco, and Rochester development firm called Caywil. The deal called for the lobbying firm to be paid millions of dollars if the Seneca Cayuga Tribe of Oklahoma opened a casino in the state.
See https://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/arc ... ing-fines/ Times Union Albany

See also STATE STEPS UP LOBBYING PROBE OF VACCO - https://buffalonews.com › news › state-steps-up-lobbying-...
Buffalo News

See also Vacco firm pays fine in lobbying investigation - https://buffalonews.com › news › vacco-firm-pays-fine-in...
Buffalo News

Dennis' wife Wife Kelley Vacco was LP Ciminelli’s General Counsel
See https://buffalonews.com/news/vacco-puts ... 1229b.html
See also https://buffalonews.com/news/lawyer-pol ... 6dbda.html

For those unaware here is the information I wrote that seems to indicate that a couple of Coppola’s uncles appear to have ben involved in he Buffalo mob and even highly respected by its hierarchy: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4122&p=212121&hili ... la#p212121
Last edited by NickleCity on Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Newyorkempire
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Newyorkempire »

Great work Nickle. Bedfellows with all of them.
"Dont leave me alone with your wife."
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by TommyNoto »

NickleCity wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:21 pm Came across some interesting information on Coppola's becoming the Assistant DA in WNY and the US Attorney that hired him. He was hired by Dennis Vacco in February of 1992 and assigned to prosecute narcotics cases. More importantly, this created a bit of a stir in Buffalo's legal community. Dan Herbeck writes:
"Vacco got some heat for hiring Coppola. Federal prosecution jobs are much sought-after in Buffalo.Federal prosecution jobs are much sought-after in Buffalo. Some lawyers felt that, by hiring the inexperienced Coppola, Vacco was pandering to the media.”
Even more interesting is that Murdered Mob Boss Joe Colombo's son Chris is recorded indicating he had Vacco in his pocket when he was the NYS Attorney General. The New York Daily Newswrites:
ACCUSED WISEGUY Christopher Colombo had his favorites among the state's top prosecutors, and Eliot Spitzer wasn't among them. "That Spitzer is the worst," Colombo told a crooked contractor whom Spitzer, as state attorney general, was investigating for swindling $1.1 million from elderly clients in 2001. The contractor was wearing a wire and recorded Colombo - the star of the short-lived reality show "House Arrest" - raving about Spitzer's predecessor, Dennis Vacco. "Vacco was the best," Colombo told John Sitterly during a 2001 meeting at an Orange County jewelry store. "I had a hook in him. And he [Spitzer] had [it out for me] because I backed Vacco, right, at a fund-raiser."
See https://www.nydailynews.com/news/spitze ... e-1.262462

The New York Post wrote:
“Spitzer is the worst. Vacco was the best. He didn’t care about anything. I had a hook in him,” Colombo tells an alleged loan-sharking victim in a shocking Jan. 19, 2001, recording, played yesterday in Manhattan federal court.
See https://nypost.com/2007/01/25/mob-boss- ... in-albany/

If it is true that Chris Colombo had "a hook in" Vacco while he was NYS Attorney General, one can't help if he was compromised by the mob in Buffalo while he was the US DA for WNY.

Here is some more information on Vacco.
Career
1978-1988 Erie County Assistant District Attorney
1988-1993 US District Attorney for WDNY
1995-1998 NYS Attorney General
1999-???? Job with Waste Management as Seneca Lobbyist after Breaking-up NY Carting
20??-???? Crane & Vacco Lobbying Firm

NYS Attorney General Dennis Vacco shook up NYS OC Task Force so it didn't focus so much on Italians.
“Vacco, 42, said he has been taking an especially close look at the State Organized Crime Task Force, headed by Goldstock, and the State Medicaid Fraud Task Force."I think we can do a much better job in both areas," Vacco said.

Goldstock, 50, director of the Organized Crime Unit, could be one of the first victims of the shake-up. A deputy attorney general, Goldstock is jointly appointed by the governor and the attorney general. The appointment may be rescinded at any time.

Goldstock has become a national figure in the area of mob prosecutions and is frequently seen giving expert commentary on ABC's Nightline and other network news shows. He heads an office of about 100 people.”



“Vacco said he would like the task force to have more involvement in prosecutions of organized crime groups other than Italians, such as the LA Boys street gang in Buffalo.””
See https://buffalonews.com/news/vacco-is-p ... 9851a.html



While NYS Attorney General Vacco was accused of misdirecting and losing funds from a freight company's forfeiture agreement for after it was a caught giving monies to the Lucchese crime Family.
The freight company, Amerford International Corporation, had been caught, by both the federal government and the state attorney general's office, firing a few dozen of its shipping clerks at Kennedy International Airport and handing the money from the saved wages to the Lucchese crime family. The forfeiture agreement called for the state's Organized Crime Task Force to distribute the money to the clerks who had been wrongly fired.
But on Thursday, a federal judge ruled that the attorney general at the time, Dennis C. Vacco, had apparently violated the agreement by funneling about $1.5 million of the forfeited money into the task force's coffers. And, according to the judge's ruling, that money was never accounted for and remains missing
See https://www.nytimes.com/2000/04/01/nyre ... llion.html

When Vacco left NYS Attorney General people questioned his ethics in taking a positions with Modern Disposal. The New York Times wrote:
Dennis C. Vacco, who lost his bid for a second term as State Attorney General in November, announced today that he was taking a position as a senior lobbyist with Waste Management Inc., a large waste disposal conglomerate that has been steadily expanding in the Northeast.

Mr. Vacco is to serve as vice president for government affairs for New York, New England and Canada, he said in a statement. The job will put him at the center of the swirl of controversies that typically surround the industry, from persuading government regulators to accept imported garbage in their areas to fighting organized crime.

...

The move by Mr. Vacco comes several weeks after he negotiated an antitrust settlement with Waste Management as one of his last acts before leaving office.
See https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/19/nyre ... auler.html

The NY Post wrote:
ALBANY – Former Attorney General Dennis Vacco is close to taking a senior post with Waste Management Inc., the nation’s largest garbage hauling firm, sources said last night.

Vacco, a Buffalo Republican who narrowly lost the November election to Democrat Eliot Spitzer, could decide as soon as today to become a senior “government relations” vice president with the company, responsible for lobbying and other special projects, a source familiar with the situation said.

The job pays “in the comfortable six figures,” the source said.

Attempts to reach Vacco, a onetime U.S. Attorney for the Western District of New York, were unsuccessful, but it was learned that he has been discussing the job offer with close associates including Mayor Giuliani.

Waste Management was one of several major waste-hauling businesses that entered the Manhattan carting business in 1996 in order to bring down prices in the wake of District Attorney Robert Morgenthau’s prosecution of the local mob-controlled cartel.

They had controlled the local garbage business for generations. Scattered claims have linked Waste Management to improper or illegal conduct.
See https://nypost.com/1999/02/18/vacco-may ... exclusive/
See also https://buffalonews.com/news/spitzer-fi ... c4612.html

Vacco had battled the FBI about an OC investigation with Sacco as informant while US DA WNY
“Sacco, 63, a longtime Buffalo mob associate, was supposed to be a major informant in a federal racketeering case against local organized crime leaders Instead, his case is an embarrassment for Vacco and the FBI.”
See https://buffalonews.com/news/informant- ... 36d78.html
See also https://buffalonews.com/news/vacco-tiff ... 5830e.html

Crane and Vacco's lobbying firm over its lobbying and casino deals
The Times Herald Record wrote:
Albany — The state's top lobbying watchdog wants a criminal investigation into former state Attorney General Dennis Vacco's casino development dealings.

David Grandeau, executive director of the state Lobbying Commission, said yesterday he expects to recommend an investigation into a consulting contract Vacco's lobbying firm prepared for the Seneca-Cayuga tribe of Oklahoma and Rochester developer Tom Wilmot.

Under the 2004 contract, Wilmot and the tribe would pay Vacco's firm, Crane & Vacco, a $5 million success fee if the tribe gets approvals to open a Catskills casino. Contingency fees are illegal under state lobbying law.
See https://www.recordonline.com/story/news ... 121098007/

The Times Union in Albany wrote:
The state Temporary Commission on Lobbying agreed today to set up a civil penalty hearing against the Crane & Vacco lobbying firm for allegedly breaking the law by setting up a contingency fee that would have awarded the lobbyists richly if a tribal casino were built in New York.
The investigation stems from a case the firm proposed settling for $50,000 but reneged. Now it faces $325,000 for failing to disclose the illegal “success fee” contract and not filing reports about it and instead filing a “false” report.
The case involves a 2004 deal first reported in the Times Union about a deal between the lobbying firm, led by James Crane and Dennis Vacco, and Rochester development firm called Caywil. The deal called for the lobbying firm to be paid millions of dollars if the Seneca Cayuga Tribe of Oklahoma opened a casino in the state.
See https://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/arc ... ing-fines/ Times Union Albany

See also STATE STEPS UP LOBBYING PROBE OF VACCO - https://buffalonews.com › news › state-steps-up-lobbying-...
Buffalo News

See also Vacco firm pays fine in lobbying investigation - https://buffalonews.com › news › vacco-firm-pays-fine-in...
Buffalo News

Dennis' wife Wife Kelley Vacco was LP Ciminelli’s General Counsel
See https://buffalonews.com/news/vacco-puts ... 1229b.html
See also https://buffalonews.com/news/lawyer-pol ... 6dbda.html

For those unaware here is the information I wrote that seems to indicate that a couple of Coppola’s uncles appear to have ben involved in he Buffalo mob and even highly respected by its hierarchy: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4122&p=212121&hili ... la#p212121
Great info and when you think about it there is a lot of construction business in West/ Upstate with several big and connected GC firms + less prying eyes outside NYC/ NJ.
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NickleCity
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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Dennis Vacco, also, represented Buffalo mob associate Joe Bella in his earlier debt collection scheme. The Buffalo News wrote:
Dennis C. Vacco, Bella’s attorney, said his client “intends to be fully compliant with state and federal law and, to that end, many of the reforms described in the agreement were already being implemented by Mr. Bella.”

Since November 2008, Bella has run various debt collection companies, including Check Systems, Interchex Systems, Goldberg Maxwell, Mullins & Kane, Morgan Jackson and National Check Registry. Most of the companies are in Buffalo, including 268 Main St. and 1673 Hertel Ave., plus one on Niagara Falls Boulevard in Amherst.
See https://buffalonews.com/news/state-and- ... 3ae6c.html

See also https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/docume ... rorder.pdf
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Newyorkempire »

NickleCity wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:31 pm Dennis Vacco, also, represented Buffalo mob associate Joe Bella in his earlier debt collection scheme. The Buffalo News wrote:
Dennis C. Vacco, Bella’s attorney, said his client “intends to be fully compliant with state and federal law and, to that end, many of the reforms described in the agreement were already being implemented by Mr. Bella.”

Since November 2008, Bella has run various debt collection companies, including Check Systems, Interchex Systems, Goldberg Maxwell, Mullins & Kane, Morgan Jackson and National Check Registry. Most of the companies are in Buffalo, including 268 Main St. and 1673 Hertel Ave., plus one on Niagara Falls Boulevard in Amherst.
See https://buffalonews.com/news/state-and- ... 3ae6c.html

See also https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/docume ... rorder.pdf
Wild connections with all this.
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NickleCity
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by NickleCity »

NickleCity wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:47 pm … if I remember correctly Michael had an underage conviction for drug dealing. I will have to go back and see if I can find that. At the very least there is a document that I've posted showing his connection to Las Vegas and and DEA files going back to 2004.
Going back I found that wasn’t underage conviction and we don’t know what he was convicted of. However Michael Masecchia did have a “relief of civil disabilities” which enabled him to get his teaching job. WKBW reported:
Kennedy, Jr. said: "He does have a prior conviction from 1990 for which he obtained a relief from civil disabilities under New York State law."
Going back to the document, it shows he had a Buffalo and Vegas DEA file from 2004 and a 2009 Buffalo DEA document that indicates Masecchia’s alleged links to the Buffalo mob. it is the same document that indicates he is an associate or made member of Buffalo LCN.

See https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/bu ... ?_amp=true

See also: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... 2/a2020242

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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

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On April 2021 Paul Manning tweeted a portion of a chart he had posted to this forum. In the tweet he unredacted Mario Cumo’s name to show his connection to reputed Buffalo Capo Joseph P. Albano.

Image
See https://twitter.com/mobinfiltrator/stat ... JKl-D3Q1nA

After doing a little digging I found that Cuomo had given Albano a patronage job appointing him to serve lead on the Western New York Economic Development Corporation. When Pataki become governor in 1995 Albano was let go. The Buffalo News writes:

Three top aides to the Western New York Economic Development Corp. were fired Friday, along with about 100 other patronage appointees of former Gov. Mario Cuomo.

Margaret Ray, Rod Hensel, and Joseph Albano were dismissed by the state new economic director, Charles Gargano.

See: https://buffalonews.com/news/three-top- ... 6defa.html

Albano had served in this role for Governor Cuomo since at least 1988. See: https://buffalonews.com/news/fabric-fir ... bb80a.html (Buffalo News online archives don’t go back any farther than 1988.)

Question: Does anyone have any information on Reg. Hill from that Chart?

I think it may be Reginald Wayne “Uncle Wayne” Hill who may have had indigenous peoples lineage according to comments on his obituary's guestbook. If this is the same Hill he could have possibly helped the Buffalo mob invest in the Indian Casinos in WNY. Of course he could have been helping them invest in casinos in Ontario seeing that he passed at St. Joseph's Hospital in Hamilton on October 13, 2006. See his obituary in the Buffalo News: https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/bu ... id=4681447
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Clark »

I assume Reg Hill is the former Six Nations tobacco tycoon from Brantford. I found an article for you, which states he is originally from Buffalo. Besides cigarettes, he was huge into bingo and other gaming:

https://vitacollections.ca/sixnationsar ... ID=3195901

I also have to imagine that he might be related to Ken Hill, who was very well-known in Ontario. If it is the same family, they have massive money. This story on him is great:

https://torontolife.com/life/ken-hill-s ... port-case/
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by NickleCity »

Clark wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:46 pm I assume Reg Hill is the former Six Nations tobacco tycoon from Brantford. I found an article for you, which states he is originally from Buffalo. Besides cigarettes, he was huge into bingo and other gaming:

https://vitacollections.ca/sixnationsar ... ID=3195901

I also have to imagine that he might be related to Ken Hill, who was very well-known in Ontario. If it is the same family, they have massive money. This story on him is great:

https://torontolife.com/life/ken-hill-s ... port-case/
Thanks a ton Clark. I appreciate the info!
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by SonnyBlackstein »

All these 'chiefs' do is fuck their own people with tobacco or gambling (casinos) to get themselves filthy rich.
Don't give me your f***ing Manson lamps.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by NickleCity »

SonnyBlackstein wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:58 pm
All these 'chiefs' do is fuck their own people with tobacco or gambling (casinos) to get themselves filthy rich.
Absolutely, tribal “chiefs” and “chiefs” of the NYS government like governor Cuomo.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Newyorkempire »

SonnyBlackstein wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:58 pm
All these 'chiefs' do is fuck their own people with tobacco or gambling (casinos) to get themselves filthy rich.
Like every other race and ethnicity idiot
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by SonnyBlackstein »

Newyorkempire wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:40 am Like every other race and ethnicity idiot
Youre a sad little man.
Don't give me your f***ing Manson lamps.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by Newyorkempire »

SonnyBlackstein wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:44 am
Newyorkempire wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:40 am Like every other race and ethnicity idiot
Youre a sad little man.
Awe. Thanks buddy. That means a lot. Your insight about tribal Chiefs was amazing. Please tell us more.
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Re: Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

Post by NickleCity »

Gerace’s lawyers have been working to strike what they call prejudicial and surplusage language related to use of Italian Organized Crime in the indictment and to obtain related grand jury evidence and instructions. Here is link to court document: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... .250.0.pdf

Here is chart of language they would like have stricken.
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