1985 lists of made members for all families, unredacted

[PolackTony]

You gotta lose your mind in Detroit Rock City.

This is very very interesting. I do have some issues with some of the names on the Detroit list though. And people who aren't on the list. The boss, underboss and who they had listed as captains post 1984 was pretty much settled since we had the 1987 list of those people.

I'm actually having trouble figuring out which Joseph Bommarito they're talking about. Not anyone I would have had on my radar as made in 1985. And they've got Jackie Giacalone made but not Frank Bommarito? And I would have thought Antonio Ruggirello would be on the list if his two brothers were. He'd already done time with Antonino for that attempted bombing of the numbers operator in flint. Interesting. And I'm very surprised Dominic Licavoli isn't on that list. Unless I've got the year he died mixed up. But Jackie Giacalone, Anthony Lapiana and Anthony Palazzola being on there in 1985 already is surprising. I didn't think their making ceremony would happen until 1986 when Anthony Giacalone got out of jail. And no Joseph or Anthony D. Giaclone on the list. And there's always been speculation that Bufalino was made, but I've still got my doubts abut that. Not sure how much he was really trusted. And if I remember correctly I thought around 1980 he definitely thought the Detroit mob was going to have him killed. Have to go home and pull up what I can find on that. And I honestly wonder if Bernard Marchesani ever actually got inducted. So not too surprised he's not on the list in 1985. But he's a fugitive at this point.

And I must have thought Guarella and Monteleone were already dead by 1985 because I never included them in the possible 1984, 1987 or 1993 counts. And it's really weird they have Dominic Corrado there(so he was still alive) but not Cavataio, who would be alive if Corrado was still alive since they waited to kill Cavataio until Dominic died. Unless they still needed to do some updating. But a great resource.

Tony LaPiana was a surprise in 1985 for me as well. I’m assuming they had info that he was already made, but I wonder what the source was for that.

[Snakes]

Just as a reminder, the FBI will only identify a member if they meet the following criteria:



If they do not meet one or more of the above, the FBI will not include them on their lists.

[Antiliar]

Looking at these lists, I'm not sure the Justice Department followed that same criteria. Looking at the Chicago list, for example, if they're asserting that the politician Vito Marzullo was a made member of the Outfit I'd say they made a big mistake at the very least. It makes me wonder if some names were put on the list so they could justify future prosecutions.

[Snakes]

Looking at these lists, I'm not sure the Justice Department followed that same criteria. Looking at the Chicago list, for example, if they're asserting that the politician Vito Marzullo was a made member of the Outfit I'd say they made a big mistake at the very least. It makes me wonder if some names were put on the list so they could justify future prosecutions.

This document was compiled "solely from input provided by our [FBI] field offices." Even though it was released by the Justice Department, it was done so in conjunction with the FBI and utilizing their intelligence, and the cover is also stamped with the FBI's seal. The Chicago list provided here almost exactly matches the one I have from an FBI file from the same time period (sans redactions), which would be consistent with the booklet using FBI intel. That list also included Marzullo among the list of members.

[PolackTony]

Looking at these lists, I'm not sure the Justice Department followed that same criteria. Looking at the Chicago list, for example, if they're asserting that the politician Vito Marzullo was a made member of the Outfit I'd say they made a big mistake at the very least. It makes me wonder if some names were put on the list so they could justify future prosecutions.

This document was compiled "solely from input provided by our [FBI] field offices." Even though it was released by the Justice Department, it was done so in conjunction with the FBI and utilizing their intelligence, and the cover is also stamped with the FBI's seal. The Chicago list provided here almost exactly matches the one I have from an FBI file from the same time period (sans redactions), which would be consistent with the booklet using FBI intel. That list also included Marzullo among the list of members.

My understanding was that the FBI had identified Marzullo as a member, so presumably by one of the criteria points posted above (I'd of course be keen to know which specific criteria they based this determination on). Though as Antiliar pointed out, the list here had Larry Pettit as a member and his sources denied that he was actually a member. Was Pettit on the FBI file list as well?

[Snakes]

Looking at these lists, I'm not sure the Justice Department followed that same criteria. Looking at the Chicago list, for example, if they're asserting that the politician Vito Marzullo was a made member of the Outfit I'd say they made a big mistake at the very least. It makes me wonder if some names were put on the list so they could justify future prosecutions.

This document was compiled "solely from input provided by our [FBI] field offices." Even though it was released by the Justice Department, it was done so in conjunction with the FBI and utilizing their intelligence, and the cover is also stamped with the FBI's seal. The Chicago list provided here almost exactly matches the one I have from an FBI file from the same time period (sans redactions), which would be consistent with the booklet using FBI intel. That list also included Marzullo among the list of members.

My understanding was that the FBI had identified Marzullo as a member, so presumably by one of the criteria points posted above. Though as Antiliar pointed out, the list here had Larry Pettit as a member and his sources denied that he was actually a member. Was Pettit on the FBI file list as well?

There is a redacted space where his name would be. But there should be no mistake that the lists Scott D posted are most certainly using FBI Intel and in accordance with the criteria listed above. That's not to say that the information is infallible or inaccurate at times, but it provides authenticity for claims made by the FBI in court settings and legal documents.

[PolackTony]

Looking at these lists, I'm not sure the Justice Department followed that same criteria. Looking at the Chicago list, for example, if they're asserting that the politician Vito Marzullo was a made member of the Outfit I'd say they made a big mistake at the very least. It makes me wonder if some names were put on the list so they could justify future prosecutions.

This document was compiled "solely from input provided by our [FBI] field offices." Even though it was released by the Justice Department, it was done so in conjunction with the FBI and utilizing their intelligence, and the cover is also stamped with the FBI's seal. The Chicago list provided here almost exactly matches the one I have from an FBI file from the same time period (sans redactions), which would be consistent with the booklet using FBI intel. That list also included Marzullo among the list of members.

My understanding was that the FBI had identified Marzullo as a member, so presumably by one of the criteria points posted above. Though as Antiliar pointed out, the list here had Larry Pettit as a member and his sources denied that he was actually a member. Was Pettit on the FBI file list as well?

There is a redacted space where his name would be. But there should be no mistake that the lists Scott D posted are most certainly using FBI Intel and in accordance with the criteria listed above. That's not to say that the information is infallible or inaccurate at times, but it provides authenticity for claims made by the FBI in court settings and legal documents.

Curious to know what their criteria were for assigning guys specific ranks. For example, the list here has Accardo as consig. Did the FBI file make this specific designation as well? If so, were the criteria for this as explicit and defined as for designating someone a member? Apart from Roemer referring to Accardo as "consigliere" in his books, is there any indication that the FBI had informant intel specifying him as such, or was it just a matter of them fitting Accardo into the consigliere slot to fill out their admin positions on the chart (as I presume)?

[Snakes]

Looking at these lists, I'm not sure the Justice Department followed that same criteria. Looking at the Chicago list, for example, if they're asserting that the politician Vito Marzullo was a made member of the Outfit I'd say they made a big mistake at the very least. It makes me wonder if some names were put on the list so they could justify future prosecutions.

This document was compiled "solely from input provided by our [FBI] field offices." Even though it was released by the Justice Department, it was done so in conjunction with the FBI and utilizing their intelligence, and the cover is also stamped with the FBI's seal. The Chicago list provided here almost exactly matches the one I have from an FBI file from the same time period (sans redactions), which would be consistent with the booklet using FBI intel. That list also included Marzullo among the list of members.

My understanding was that the FBI had identified Marzullo as a member, so presumably by one of the criteria points posted above. Though as Antiliar pointed out, the list here had Larry Pettit as a member and his sources denied that he was actually a member. Was Pettit on the FBI file list as well?

There is a redacted space where his name would be. But there should be no mistake that the lists Scott D posted are most certainly using FBI Intel and in accordance with the criteria listed above. That's not to say that the information is infallible or inaccurate at times, but it provides authenticity for claims made by the FBI in court settings and legal documents.

Curious to know what their criteria were for assigning guys specific ranks. For example, the list here has Accardo as consig. Did the FBI file make this specific designation as well? If so, were the criteria for this as explicit and defined as for designating someone a member? Apart from Roemer referring to Accardo as "consigliere" in his books, is there any indication that the FBI had informant intel specifying him as such, or was it just a matter of them fitting Accardo into the consigliere slot to fill out their admin positions on the chart (as I presume)?

That was basically them assigning Accardo the consigliere position because he was the Chicago member who most closely matched the FBI definition of the position. I don't think that the intel for bosses and capos were as rigid as that of a member -- at least it isn't specifically laid out as such.

I have language that they used to describe Accardo at the time and I'll share it when I get a chance.

[PolackTony]

Looking at these lists, I'm not sure the Justice Department followed that same criteria. Looking at the Chicago list, for example, if they're asserting that the politician Vito Marzullo was a made member of the Outfit I'd say they made a big mistake at the very least. It makes me wonder if some names were put on the list so they could justify future prosecutions.

This document was compiled "solely from input provided by our [FBI] field offices." Even though it was released by the Justice Department, it was done so in conjunction with the FBI and utilizing their intelligence, and the cover is also stamped with the FBI's seal. The Chicago list provided here almost exactly matches the one I have from an FBI file from the same time period (sans redactions), which would be consistent with the booklet using FBI intel. That list also included Marzullo among the list of members.

My understanding was that the FBI had identified Marzullo as a member, so presumably by one of the criteria points posted above. Though as Antiliar pointed out, the list here had Larry Pettit as a member and his sources denied that he was actually a member. Was Pettit on the FBI file list as well?

There is a redacted space where his name would be. But there should be no mistake that the lists Scott D posted are most certainly using FBI Intel and in accordance with the criteria listed above. That's not to say that the information is infallible or inaccurate at times, but it provides authenticity for claims made by the FBI in court settings and legal documents.

Curious to know what their criteria were for assigning guys specific ranks. For example, the list here has Accardo as consig. Did the FBI file make this specific designation as well? If so, were the criteria for this as explicit and defined as for designating someone a member? Apart from Roemer referring to Accardo as "consigliere" in his books, is there any indication that the FBI had informant intel specifying him as such, or was it just a matter of them fitting Accardo into the consigliere slot to fill out their admin positions on the chart (as I presume)?

That was basically them assigning Accardo the consigliere position because he was the Chicago member who most closely matched the FBI definition of the position. I don't think that the intel for bosses and capos were as rigid as that of a member -- at least it isn't specifically laid out as such.

I have language that they used to describe Accardo at the time and I'll share it when I get a chance.

Thanks. My impression has always been that the Feds squeezed Accardo into that box because that’s what they had. Given that there’s still a lot that we really don’t understand about Chicago, I’m always interested in seeing what the evidence, such as it is, specifically says though (example being Nick C using terms like captain and amico nostra in his testimony). I recall that in the info you recently shared on the general Chicago thread, Accardo was described as a “consultant”.

[Antiliar]

Using "Accardo" and "consigliere" as keywords in Mary Farrell only one document comes up, which is the 1960 and 1969 hierarchy chart: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... onsigliere

[Snakes]

Using "Accardo" and "consigliere" as keywords in Mary Farrell only one document comes up, which is the 1960 and 1969 hierarchy chart: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... onsigliere

I think that this is because MF only goes to about the mid-70s. By the 80s, he was referred to more commonly as consigliere. Not that I necessarily agree with that label as I think the FBI kind of shoehorned him into it, but it was there. I also think that FBI HQ wanted a defined hierarchy within each family, with consistent labels from family to family that would make sense to the head honchos. I don't think they wanted the organizational structure to be overly complicated

[Antiliar]

Using "Accardo" and "consigliere" as keywords in Mary Farrell only one document comes up, which is the 1960 and 1969 hierarchy chart: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... onsigliere

I think that this is because MF only goes to about the mid-70s. By the 80s, he was referred to more commonly as consigliere. Not that I necessarily agree with that label as I think the FBI kind of shoehorned him into it, but it was there. I also think that FBI HQ wanted a defined hierarchy within each family, with consistent labels from family to family that would make sense to the head honchos. I don't think they wanted the organizational structure to be overly complicated

I was looking for the origin of the label as applied to Accardo, especially some sort of basis in transcripts, summaries or reports. This hierarchy chart was put in the Congressional Record. By contrast, the 1963 McClellan Committee chart presented during Joe Valachi's testimony only had a very vague "bosses and lieutenants." So I agree that the FBI shoehorned Accardo into it and didn't want it too complicated.

[B.]

Jimmy Fratianno said Roselli told him Accardo was "acting as consigliere" (something along those lines) in his first book, not sure what he said in his actual FBI interviews.

There is also testimony from the head of the Chicago FBI Office in the mid-1980s where he said Accardo was the consigliere when he was breaking down the Chicago Family. If I find that testimony again I will post it, but based on the list Scott posted that would be a reflection of the FBI's chart at the time.

[Snakes]

Jimmy Fratianno said Roselli told him Accardo was "acting as consigliere" (something along those lines) in his first book, not sure what he said in his actual FBI interviews.

There is also testimony from the head of the Chicago FBI Office in the mid-1980s where he said Accardo was the consigliere when he was breaking down the Chicago Family. If I find that testimony again I will post it, but based on the list Scott posted that would be a reflection of the FBI's chart at the time.

Thay was actually testimony from Bill Roemer, former (possobly retired) Chicago FBI agent who was operating in a "consultative" position with both the CCC (Chicago Crime Commission) and the FBI. Roemer worked with the CCC to produce the chart used during the Senate hearings in 1983 where that testimony originated.

[B.]

This wasn't Roemer, this was Hegarty, the Special Agent-in-Charge of the Chicago FBI Office: