1985 lists of made members for all families, unredacted

[Newyorkempire]

They're fluid when it comes to outsiders trying to understand them, but not so much inside of the org. The entire US mafia knew Joe Bonanno was no longer recognized and there was no Family in Arizona. Informants through the 1970s showed that Joe Bonanno's attempts to receive backing from leaders in California and Colorado were rejected because they understood he was a shelved/deposed former boss.

Got it now. Didnt know he was still petitioning to "play" the role of boss while in Arizona.

[B.]

The "Tucson Crime Family".

[Newyorkempire]

The "Tucson Crime Family".

Wow. There it is

[Newyorkempire]

Do you think they would classify Arizona as such in order to keep coming after Bonanno with more evidence he was never retired? Or expecting a growth of the family there?

What thread is that 1977 report in for Buffalo if your dont mind?

Joe Bonanno thought of himself as a "boss" but that's about it. I'm sure part of the FBI's motivation came from how well-connected JB was and how powerful he once was, but it shows a disconnect between some of the FBI's classifications vs. the mafia's own. LCNBios carried the shelved West Coast members as Bonanno members on his charts through the 2000s because he was a researcher who stayed true to the internal formalities these guys follow.

There's a late 1970s FBI chart where Joe and Bill Bonanno are carried as San Jose members and I've got no clue why they'd put them there beyond their ties to the area. It again shows a disconnect between some FBI designations and reality:


With Rochester, even though the rest of the US didn't consider them a real Family they were a "viable" organized crime group who operated like one so I understand why the FBI would target them as if they were one. Rochester was still using the blueprint of Cosa Nostra leadership, structure, and rituals. It's just that politically they were as much of a "Family" as the Gallo brothers' crew in NYC. In order to have their membership recognized, they would either have to fall back in with Buffalo or receive representation from another Family (like the Bonanno rumors suggest). A question is if others aside from Campanella fell back in with Buffalo later.

Here's the 1977 thread by Snakes:

https://theblackhand.club/forum/viewtop ... 9&p=218265

The San Jose chart just came up on my end. This really shows a lack of trust in FBI designations and charts. I really didnt realize how misleading they actually are

[Wiseguy]

The San Jose chart just came up on my end. This really shows a lack of trust in FBI designations and charts. I really didnt realize how misleading they actually are

You can't make such a blanket statement based on a San Jose chart from the 1970s. The national renewal of intelligence collection, and subsequent indictments against LCN, began in the 1980s. There's 40+ years between then and now and a world of difference

[Newyorkempire]

The San Jose chart just came up on my end. This really shows a lack of trust in FBI designations and charts. I really didnt realize how misleading they actually are

You can't make such a blanket statement based on a San Jose chart from the 1970s. The national renewal of intelligence collection, and subsequent indictments against LCN, began in the 1980s. There's 40+ years between then and now and a world of difference

You are right, the FBI in the last 40 years has never been misleading.

[Wiseguy]

The San Jose chart just came up on my end. This really shows a lack of trust in FBI designations and charts. I really didnt realize how misleading they actually are

You can't make such a blanket statement based on a San Jose chart from the 1970s. The national renewal of intelligence collection, and subsequent indictments against LCN, began in the 1980s. There's 40+ years between then and now and a world of difference

You are right, the FBI in the last 40 years has never been misleading.

Not what I said Mr. Strawman. I'm saying FBI intel today is the most consistent and trustworthy source we'll find. Even those who bag on the feds depend on them for info more than anything else.

[Newyorkempire]

The San Jose chart just came up on my end. This really shows a lack of trust in FBI designations and charts. I really didnt realize how misleading they actually are

You can't make such a blanket statement based on a San Jose chart from the 1970s. The national renewal of intelligence collection, and subsequent indictments against LCN, began in the 1980s. There's 40+ years between then and now and a world of difference

You are right, the FBI in the last 40 years has never been misleading.

Not what I said Mr. Strawman. I'm saying FBI intel today is the most consistent and trustworthy source we'll find. Even those who bag on the feds depend on them for info more than anything else.

And I never said they werent the "most", I stated that over time they have repeatedly shown inconsistencies and lack the exact truth as all these charts from 85 shows. And, they have been in the dark in recent times regardless of them being the most consistent. Michael Jordan didnt make every shot Tinman. All depends on what narrative you are trying to push. Yours just doesnt fit in this case, even though you tell us it does. Doesnt mean you didnt try really hard though. Be proud of your effort.

[B.]

You're going to find issues in any era and an error shouldn't discount the bulk of the FBI's work (just look at how much they do get right) but you also have to take into account their POV and limitations. The FBI is always subject to their sources when it comes to "official" info and their goals sometimes shape the way they document info. For example, they've closed FBI investigations on guys because they seemed criminally "inactive" or retired only for him to surface as a newly promoted leader later on.

[Newyorkempire]

You're going to find issues in any era and an error shouldn't discount the bulk of the FBI's work (just look at how much they do get right) but you also have to take into account their POV and limitations. The FBI is always subject to their sources when it comes to "official" info and their goals sometimes shape the way they document info. For example, they've closed FBI investigations on guys because they seemed criminally "inactive" or retired only for him to surface as a newly promoted leader later on.

+1

[Uforeality]

Pretty cool. Thanks for sharing.

[sdeitche]

[sdeitche]

You go and save the best for last.

Of note here, echoing other posters on this thread, is that the FBI list differs somewhat from contemporary lists from the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement (FDLE). The FDLE were far more active in investigating LCN in Tampa, esp into the 1990s.

Obviously, the glaring missing name here is Vincent LoScalzo, who takes over as boss two years later following Santo's death in March 1987.

[coldshoulder]

Hello Cleveland!

Of note, Stefano Randazzo died in 1980.

Interesting to see Big Dom Mallamo's name here with the Cleveland folks, remember this is a 1985 document; it might have been true in the Youngstown area from 1960 to the late 70's, but the tide was already turning before 1985 as Mallamo's underlings--Prato, Strollo, Naples--all aligned with Pittsburgh. With Tony DelSanter's passing in 1977, Ronnie Carabbia going to prison in 1978, and Charlie Carabbia taken out 1980, the Cleveland influence, which apparently at some point had previously included Mallamo and crew, suddenly lost it's Youngstown-Warren leadership and muscle.

The fact that Mallamo's name is here at all in 1985, along with being identified as being with Cleveland, is still puzzling to me. It feels in this case like it should be a 1975 document. But perhaps the key word is "made" members, then Mallamo is legit identified as a made member, despite his lessening role at that point in 1985.

Maybe Mallamo was still a key guy in 1985?
Maybe he had always worked with Cleveland?
Maybe I still don't understand as well as I thought I did, the murky Youngstown underworld in the 60's, 70's, and 80's.

[Adam]

You gotta lose your mind in Detroit Rock City.

This is very very interesting. I do have some issues with some of the names on the Detroit list though. And people who aren't on the list. The boss, underboss and who they had listed as captains post 1984 was pretty much settled since we had the 1987 list of those people.

I'm actually having trouble figuring out which Joseph Bommarito they're talking about. Not anyone I would have had on my radar as made in 1985. And they've got Jackie Giacalone made but not Frank Bommarito? And I would have thought Antonio Ruggirello would be on the list if his two brothers were. He'd already done time with Antonino for that attempted bombing of the numbers operator in flint. Interesting. And I'm very surprised Dominic Licavoli isn't on that list. Unless I've got the year he died mixed up. But Jackie Giacalone, Anthony Lapiana and Anthony Palazzola being on there in 1985 already is surprising. I didn't think their making ceremony would happen until 1986 when Anthony Giacalone got out of jail. And no Joseph or Anthony D. Giaclone on the list. And there's always been speculation that Bufalino was made, but I've still got my doubts abut that. Not sure how much he was really trusted. And if I remember correctly I thought around 1980 he definitely thought the Detroit mob was going to have him killed. Have to go home and pull up what I can find on that. And I honestly wonder if Bernard Marchesani ever actually got inducted. So not too surprised he's not on the list in 1985. But he's a fugitive at this point.

And I must have thought Guarella and Monteleone were already dead by 1985 because I never included them in the possible 1984, 1987 or 1993 counts. And it's really weird they have Dominic Corrado there(so he was still alive) but not Cavataio, who would be alive if Corrado was still alive since they waited to kill Cavataio until Dominic died. Unless they still needed to do some updating. But a great resource.