2022 national confirmed membership counts

[Newyorkempire]

The same tired old arguement.


Pogo

Totally agree

[JoeCamel]

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... es-to.html
Vincent Pisciotta

https://m.openjurist.org/19/f3d/816/uni ... -of-americ
James Moretina

[JoeCamel]

John Sciortino,
PJ Ribaste
Peter Simone
Willy Cammisano jr
Vince Civella
Anthony Simone

I believe are all confirmed somewhere along the line

Moretina and Pisciotta are cited as members in the links I posted.

John Mandacina after poring over 5 appeal documents is heavily implied to be a made member but successfully was able to strike mention of organized crime from his trial and there is contention there so I cannot say he is

The consensus is Gerry Cammisano is Made, but I haven’t seen direct confirmation so I will give you that one too

Nick LaBruzzo actually was proved not to be a made member in the Moretina document (at the time)

Termini and Scola I am unable to confirm so Wiseguy I am not saying they are….but the count can be considered 6-9 with accuracy and government documents backing Moretina and Pisciotta up

[JoeCamel]

10 of them are 100% confirmed made guys by my recollection

Confirmed how? If you or anyone else can find something official that can be posted for all to see, be my guest.

You said 5 for K.C.
I am lowering my number for confirmed guys
I am say 6 unequivocal without including Vince Civella or Tony Simone but more likely 8
Can we shake hands on this if I say I erred including that list?

[Wiseguy]

10 of them are 100% confirmed made guys by my recollection

Confirmed how? If you or anyone else can find something official that can be posted for all to see, be my guest.

You said 5 for K.C.
I am lowering my number for confirmed guys
I am say 6 unequivocal without including Vince Civella or Tony Simone but more likely 8
Can we shake hands on this if I say I erred including that list?

I actually included Labruzzo in the 5 I mentioned because, assuming we are talking about the same document, it did say the FBI identified him as a made member even though the Administor disagreed.

If we don't count him, it's only William Cammisano Jr., James Moretina, Vincent Pisciotta, and Peter Simone I've seen evidence posted confirming them to be made members.

PJ Ribaste I'm not sure about, assuming he's still alive.

All those other names, it's only been forum posters saying they're made from what I've seen. But like I said, if people can find and post info about them, I'll be happy adding them to the list.

[newera_212]

Wish I knew more about Chicago. Only Chicago stuff I ever read about was in the Family Secrets book where it was made clear to me how different Chicago is than NY. I realize that being made is a totally different thing and the whole outfit (made members) seemed to be kept small by design but they are down to only 14 confirmed made guys in 2022? That seems crazy. I'm not trying to argue it's more or there's this huge roster of young low key Chicago up and comers we don't know about... but Jesus, talk about attrition. That's really surprising the old timers just took what they could and said fuck it. Smart I guess, but these guys really said it's over lol

[Patrickgold]

Buffalo News reported Dominic Vaccaro being made.

I included him in my estimate but he was not on the 1993 list or the 1997 and 2006 charts. So he was almost certainly not a Buffalo member.

John Balistrieri and John Candela, owner of Grande Cheese, are still alive for Milwaukee. I believe they have both been identified by the FBI as made members

Candella was on the August 1968 Madison member list. The 1993 Milwaukee list has a redacted spot that could be John Balistrieri.


Pogo

If it was 1968 when he was listed as made member for Madison then he was probably part of that meeting in the early 70s when there was a vote to either disband or keep functioning. If he raised his hand for keeping the family then he would have been transported to Milwaukee. Crazy to think Madison still has a member alive while Pittsburgh and some other cities don’t.

I think it would be safe to say John Bal was the person on that list considering his brother was. With that being said, it could have also been Angelo Alioto.

[PolackTony]

Wish I knew more about Chicago. Only Chicago stuff I ever read about was in the Family Secrets book where it was made clear to me how different Chicago is than NY. I realize that being made is a totally different thing and the whole outfit (made members) seemed to be kept small by design but they are down to only 14 confirmed made guys in 2022? That seems crazy. I'm not trying to argue it's more or there's this huge roster of young low key Chicago up and comers we don't know about... but Jesus, talk about attrition. That's really surprising the old timers just took what they could and said fuck it. Smart I guess, but these guys really said it's over lol

Don’t how much you’ve delved into it, but the Chicago threads on here are an amazing resource. All sorts of stuff that you won’t ever read about in any book about Chicago.

Chicago was hit a by a series of major federal cases in the 80s and 90s that severely damaged the admin and membership and destroyed their pillars of power: control of the unions and the ability to orchestrate corruption in the city government and Cook County court system. I believe that a big part of what drove the intense federal attack on the Chicago Outfit was their arguably unequaled and basically open level of infiltration of key institutions in what was the country’s second largest city. One of the most important politicians in Chicago history and the second most powerful elected official in the city government, Alderman Fred Roti, was an inducted LCN member. Through him and Pat Marcy they controlled the Loop, City Hall and the city services departments (paving, sewers, garbage collection, the freakin snowplow fleet, you name it). They could fix murder cases like nothing. Corruption in Chicago was at almost cartoonish levels, and some of the suburban governments like Melrose Park or Cicero were even worse. Once the Outfit lost their ability to engage in large scale corruption and to bend the police departments and court system to their will, it was left vastly diminished.

[JoeCamel]

So going with the high numbers so far

Genovese - 165
Gambino - 160
Bonanno - 139
Luchese - 112
Colombo - 90

Philadelphia- 43
Patriarca - 34
Decavalcante -37
Chicago Outfit- 14 (maybe 19)
Detroit-7 (hopefully Scott can contribute more confirmed)
Buffalo - 15
Rochester - 7 (might count as Buffalo/bonnano)
Los Angeles - 5
Trafficante - 5
Kansas City - 7 (including Sciortino and Ribaste)
Milwaukee - 2
St Louis - 1
NOLA - 1
Cleveland - 1 (2 if Lucarelli is confirmed by any official source)

That’s Pogo/wiseguys conservative confirmation technique and including their high estimates/counts with the exception of the 7 I have KC as. I wanted to do 10, and it more then likely that’s the closer number when a KC expert pops up. If Anyone else has other counts/estimates I would love to hear them. For instance I’m sure their is at least 2 or 3 more confirmed living members in Detroit who we can cite using online resources. Unfortunately it really is a tedious process to read through dozens of articles, reports, appeals, sentencing reports….so anyone who can add anything outside of basically the NY5 please cite your references to adhere to the pogo/wiseguy standard. I might hate it, you might hate it, but I do agree it is a good system.


666 (rough count) NY5
182 -185 (Rough count) others
850 conservative estimate of confirmed and known to the public members in 2022

[Little_Al1991]

According to John Pennisi’s testimony, the Lucchese family operates with a total of seven crews – two in The Bronx, two on Long Island, one in Manhattan, one in New Jersey, and one Brooklyn crew which relocated to the Tottenville section of Staten Island

I don't think people realize how rare and valuable this info from Pennisi was. Especially nowadays. I mean, when was the last time the feds released a full layout of all the captains/crews in a given family? Or the last time someone like Gravano, D'Arco, or Vitale flipped and outlined their family's hierarchy for law enforcement?

People were a little surprised the present-day Luccheses were at 7 crews but my guess is it's reflective of all the NY families today, i.e. they have fewer crews than we are accustomed to thinking.

It’s not the same anymore.There’s not as much money left on the street anymore and it’s getting tougher to induct people.John Pennisi’s information is extremely valuable.When DeSantis and Dellorusso are indicted, he will probably reveal some more interesting information.The Lucchese Family chart from 1991 had 6 people identified as Captains but D’Arco,Baratta and Crea who were in the administration in an Acting Capacity were also listed as Captains.
There’s possibly another crew now in the Lucchese Family, a reinstated Brooklyn crew

[Pogo The Clown]

That’s Pogo/wiseguys conservative confirmation technique and including their high estimates/counts with the exception of the 7 I have KC as. I wanted to do 10, and it more then likely that’s the closer number when a KC expert pops up.

You have to look at the trends. KC had 20 in 1993 so having 10-15 now would give them one of the best retention rates outside of NY. Most of the other families have lost 80+%-100% of their numbers from 1993. Even a larger and more powerful group like Chicago has lost over 2/3 of their 1993 size. Hard to believe KC is doing that much better than Chicago and all the rest of them.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

so anyone who can add anything outside of basically the NY5 please cite your references to adhere to the pogo/wiseguy standard. I might hate it, you might hate it, but I do agree it is a good system.

That's really the only reason to even create a thread like this.

That’s Pogo/wiseguys conservative confirmation technique and including their high estimates/counts with the exception of the 7 I have KC as. I wanted to do 10, and it more then likely that’s the closer number when a KC expert pops up.

You have to look at the trends. KC had 20 in 1993 so having 10-15 now would give them one of the best retention rates outside of NY. Most of the other families have lost 80+%-100% of their numbers from 1993. Even a larger and more powerful group like Chicago has lost over 2/3 of their 1993 size. Hard to believe KC is doing that much better than Chicago and all the rest of them.


Pogo

That's always been one of my biggest reasons for being skeptical of these claims Kansas City still has 10,15 or more members. Not just the likelihood of them having such a retention rate but just look at the other Midwest families. Cleveland - 1 or 2. Detroit less than 10 (7 from what I can tell). Chicago (the biggest and most active relatively speaking) maybe 15. Milwaukee maybe 1? St. Louis - 1. And then on top of that, look at the lack of activity in KC for years now.

[scott22]

PJ Ribaste of KC died last year. I was the only one to report it (hence some on here have disputed it lol). There was no obit, per his family's request.

I wouldn't have reported it if i wasn't 100 percent certain he had passed. I received confirmation from multiple sources on the street in KC and by the KC FBI.

SMB

[Pmac2]

i wonder if theres more satellite crews around. like luisi was a philly guys with a crew of guys in the suburbs of boston. the colombos made ralph deleo who had a crew of guys in the boston burbs. i bet this is probaly the way things are moving forward. merlino has a crew in florida. the bonannos making guys in hamilton where ever the fuck that is. more spread out i guess. just dudes meeting in prison and keeping in touch threw social media. it wouldnt shock me if nyc familys just start making guys from around new england just report to them a few hours away

[newera_212]

Wish I knew more about Chicago. Only Chicago stuff I ever read about was in the Family Secrets book where it was made clear to me how different Chicago is than NY. I realize that being made is a totally different thing and the whole outfit (made members) seemed to be kept small by design but they are down to only 14 confirmed made guys in 2022? That seems crazy. I'm not trying to argue it's more or there's this huge roster of young low key Chicago up and comers we don't know about... but Jesus, talk about attrition. That's really surprising the old timers just took what they could and said fuck it. Smart I guess, but these guys really said it's over lol

Don’t how much you’ve delved into it, but the Chicago threads on here are an amazing resource. All sorts of stuff that you won’t ever read about in any book about Chicago.

Chicago was hit a by a series of major federal cases in the 80s and 90s that severely damaged the admin and membership and destroyed their pillars of power: control of the unions and the ability to orchestrate corruption in the city government and Cook County court system. I believe that a big part of what drove the intense federal attack on the Chicago Outfit was their arguably unequaled and basically open level of infiltration of key institutions in what was the country’s second largest city. One of the most important politicians in Chicago history and the second most powerful elected official in the city government, Alderman Fred Roti, was an inducted LCN member. Through him and Pat Marcy they controlled the Loop, City Hall and the city services departments (paving, sewers, garbage collection, the freakin snowplow fleet, you name it). They could fix murder cases like nothing. Corruption in Chicago was at almost cartoonish levels, and some of the suburban governments like Melrose Park or Cicero were even worse. Once the Outfit lost their ability to engage in large scale corruption and to bend the police departments and court system to their will, it was left vastly diminished.

Good stuff. Thank you. I know theres a lot of good Chicago stuff on here and some of the best Chicago researchers in the world. I'm just so 'far behind' that I wouldn't know where to start lol. Tons of substantial long Chicago threads here that I'll eventually get to.

What you said makes a lot of sense. General attrition, a drastic change in the culture around Chicago and the suburbs, indictments, all of it - but I'm just thinking from a NY perspective at least 3 of the 5 families could be considered comparable in terms of influence, power, how far the tentacles stretched - and despite all of the same things being taken away from them, they still managed to make attempts to replenish the ranks. I know the culture in NY is totally different but it's just shocking to me that there weren't a couple old timers in Chicago who thought of what they had as "a thing" and wanted to see it continue.

Gene Borrello is a knuckle dragger but one thing he said that stuck with me was that Vin Asaro and every other old timer he encountered outwardly expressed concern that LCN needs to continue beyond their lifetimes and it was their responsibility to make sure that happens.

Wholesale corruption of civil servants might be a thing of the past but that surely can't be it - none of the Chicago guys wanted these crews to continue? I'm thinking that wasn't an edict from the top down, but the Chicago crews are so autonomous from one another that there may be different attitudes towards expansion , replenishing the ranks, etc between all the crews - some don't give a shit and some do? Is that what it is?

One thing I will say based on the limited Chicago stuff I've read is it seems there's no room for games or error with those guys. Seems like a totally different ball game. Some of the stories from Nick Calabrese were insane