Youngstown's Naples (Pittsburgh) & Carabbia (Cleveland) War

[coldshoulder]

I have this thing about Lonardo's lack of knowledge of things. For the Youngstown mob murders this is Lonardo's testimony:

12/3/78 CHARLES GRISHAM: I have no knowledge of Grisham. I did not authorize or participate in any matters relating to him.

1/11/79 JAMES CONONICO: I have no knowledge who Connonico was. I did not authorize or participate in any matters relating to him.

4/12/79 ROBERT FUREY: I have no knowledge of who Furey was. I did not authorize or participate in the shooting.

7/25/79 JOHN TOBIN: I did not know Tobin. I have no knowledge of him. I did not authorize or participate in the shooting.

1/6/80 JOHN MAGDA: I have no knowledge of Magda.

2/13/80 ROBERT DE CERBO: I have no knowledge of De Cerbo.

5/14/80 JOSEPH DE ROSE. JR: The shooting was by the Youngstown Group who were at that time under the control of Pittsburg.

10/2/80 DOMINIC SENARINO: I have no knowledge.

Although Grisham and Cononico were Naples' associates, they were rather low level and Charlie Crab may have had them taken out without necessarily getting approval from or naming names to Jack White and Lonardo. Naples might have had Furey eliminated because of suspicions of being an informant and/or a double cross, so Lonardo of course wouldn't be privy to any of that planning. Likewise, Tobin and Magda weren't real high up in the hierarchy, so again Lonardo may not have been informed, or purposely did not want to hear/know. DeCerbo, DeRose, Jr. (and also DeRose, Sr., an innocent victim), and Senzarino were all affiliated with the Carabbia's, so certainly Lonardo wouldn't have had any prior knowledge of what was going to happen to them.

Lonardo had plenty going on in Cleveland before, during, and after this time frame along with his national connections, so he may have easily considered Youngstown-Warren as a nagging afterthought, what with losing leading Youngstown-Warren soldiers DelSanter ('77), Ronnie Crab (to prison late '78), and Charlie Crab (disappeared late '80).

Anyways, here's the next page of Whelan's March 1982 magazine story:

[FriendofHenry]

Joe DeRose's girlfriend, Cherelle, was HOT stuff

[coldshoulder]

Oh well, I thought there were some Cleveland folks here, or others in general, who might have chimed in. But I guess not.
Anyway, here's the final installment of Cleveland Magazine's Ned Whelan story from March, 1982 about organized crime and murders in the Youngstown area. (Click to align and enlarge)

[Ivan]

Hey I appreciate this thread coldshoulder. I'm from Ohio and I'm summering there (Dublin) right now. I just don't have anything to say that you fellas don't already know.

[FriendofHenry]

This is what happened to our continued conversations. Check out these two Trolls. They just joined and both only asked about Pittsburgh.
THis s what JCB posted a while back and there's no reason to doubt him.

JCB1977 wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 11:22 am
@Stroccos and FOH

Don’t indulge jaredjoseph or Ruggiero. Wild Indians who rob old ladies with gooks are low life pieces of shit. The red dot is back

[Stroccos]

I find the Cleveland-Pittsburgh Youngstown war fascinating. What I find most interesting is that Cleveland seems almost to have been totally in the dark about it. Angelo Lonardo barely knew anything about it, but that fits with him seeming to not know too much about anything going on with Cleveland even though he was the underboss.

they werent mob hits, why he care about some low level guys in youngstown ?

[Adam]

I find the Cleveland-Pittsburgh Youngstown war fascinating. What I find most interesting is that Cleveland seems almost to have been totally in the dark about it. Angelo Lonardo barely knew anything about it, but that fits with him seeming to not know too much about anything going on with Cleveland even though he was the underboss.

they werent mob hits, why he care about some low level guys in youngstown ?

How were they not mob hits? His guy Charlie Carabbia was his partner in Youngstown for the vending/gambling rackets and was in charge of Cleveland interests there. For which Cleveland(Lonardo/Licavoli) was getting 25%. Charlie's brother was in prison for doing an important hit for Cleveland and would have already been a member if he hadn't already been in prison. Pittsburgh came to Licavoli/Lonardo and complained about what Charlie was doing and Cleveland got Pittsburgh to give him a pass so long as he didn't do anything wrong moving forward. Pittsburgh then kills Charlie over a transgression, leaves his car in Cleveland and Pittsburgh apologizes for the car being dropped there. And Lonardo doesn't know anything about the 8 or so killings that took place. Half of them by his representative in Youngstown. Lonardo comes across as someone who knew almost nothing about mob affairs going on around him. Repeatedly.

[FriendofFamily]

I find the Cleveland-Pittsburgh Youngstown war fascinating. What I find most interesting is that Cleveland seems almost to have been totally in the dark about it. Angelo Lonardo barely knew anything about it, but that fits with him seeming to not know too much about anything going on with Cleveland even though he was the underboss.

they werent mob hits, why he care about some low level guys in youngstown ?

How were they not mob hits? His guy Charlie Carabbia was his partner in Youngstown for the vending/gambling rackets and was in charge of Cleveland interests there. For which Cleveland(Lonardo/Licavoli) was getting 25%. Charlie's brother was in prison for doing an important hit for Cleveland and would have already been a member if he hadn't already been in prison. Pittsburgh came to Licavoli/Lonardo and complained about what Charlie was doing and Cleveland got Pittsburgh to give him a pass so long as he didn't do anything wrong moving forward. Pittsburgh then kills Charlie over a transgression, leaves his car in Cleveland and Pittsburgh apologizes for the car being dropped there. And Lonardo doesn't know anything about the 8 or so killings that took place. Half of them by his representative in Youngstown. Lonardo comes across as someone who knew almost nothing about mob affairs going on around him. Repeatedly.

Angelo Lonardo was saving his own skin testifying because of the Drug Charges and he wanted to bring those guys down because they were dealing drugs meaning his Capos in Cleveland. He didn't need to say he knew what was going on - otherwise, he would go away for a very long time - deal or no deal.

[FriendofFamily]

Angelo Lonardo knew exactly what he was doing. Angelo Lonardo was well liked by the Old timers and Soldiers from Cleveland and Akron (LaFatch - Tony and Jimmy) and other parts of Ohio. Of Course UNTIL HE TESTIFIED!!

[Stroccos]

I find the Cleveland-Pittsburgh Youngstown war fascinating. What I find most interesting is that Cleveland seems almost to have been totally in the dark about it. Angelo Lonardo barely knew anything about it, but that fits with him seeming to not know too much about anything going on with Cleveland even though he was the underboss.

they werent mob hits, why he care about some low level guys in youngstown ?

How were they not mob hits? His guy Charlie Carabbia was his partner in Youngstown for the vending/gambling rackets and was in charge of Cleveland interests there. For which Cleveland(Lonardo/Licavoli) was getting 25%. Charlie's brother was in prison for doing an important hit for Cleveland and would have already been a member if he hadn't already been in prison. Pittsburgh came to Licavoli/Lonardo and complained about what Charlie was doing and Cleveland got Pittsburgh to give him a pass so long as he didn't do anything wrong moving forward. Pittsburgh then kills Charlie over a transgression, leaves his car in Cleveland and Pittsburgh apologizes for the car being dropped there. And Lonardo doesn't know anything about the 8 or so killings that took place. Half of them by his representative in Youngstown. Lonardo comes across as someone who knew almost nothing about mob affairs going on around him. Repeatedly.

Cleveland and Pittsburgh mafia families were never at war , even if Naples killed all the carabbia crew , Cleveland would of still got there cut .

If they were at war why would Pittsburg even bother to ask for permission to kill Charles ?

[FriendofHenry]

I find the Cleveland-Pittsburgh Youngstown war fascinating. What I find most interesting is that Cleveland seems almost to have been totally in the dark about it. Angelo Lonardo barely knew anything about it, but that fits with him seeming to not know too much about anything going on with Cleveland even though he was the underboss.

they werent mob hits, why he care about some low level guys in youngstown ?

How were they not mob hits? His guy Charlie Carabbia was his partner in Youngstown for the vending/gambling rackets and was in charge of Cleveland interests there. For which Cleveland(Lonardo/Licavoli) was getting 25%. Charlie's brother was in prison for doing an important hit for Cleveland and would have already been a member if he hadn't already been in prison. Pittsburgh came to Licavoli/Lonardo and complained about what Charlie was doing and Cleveland got Pittsburgh to give him a pass so long as he didn't do anything wrong moving forward. Pittsburgh then kills Charlie over a transgression, leaves his car in Cleveland and Pittsburgh apologizes for the car being dropped there. And Lonardo doesn't know anything about the 8 or so killings that took place. Half of them by his representative in Youngstown. Lonardo comes across as someone who knew almost nothing about mob affairs going on around him. Repeatedly.

Cleveland and Pittsburgh mafia families were never at war , even if Naples killed all the carabbia crew , Cleveland would of still got there cut .

If they were at war why would Pittsburg even bother to ask for permission to kill Charles ?

I figured that out after a year or so sitting next to Jimmy Prato in a few different RC poker games in Struthers. Besides Jimmy never seeing a card he didn't like it turns out he was there to make sure Pittsburgh got their cut. No one made money if they were at war and it's always about the money

[Stroccos]

I find the Cleveland-Pittsburgh Youngstown war fascinating. What I find most interesting is that Cleveland seems almost to have been totally in the dark about it. Angelo Lonardo barely knew anything about it, but that fits with him seeming to not know too much about anything going on with Cleveland even though he was the underboss.

they werent mob hits, why he care about some low level guys in youngstown ?

How were they not mob hits? His guy Charlie Carabbia was his partner in Youngstown for the vending/gambling rackets and was in charge of Cleveland interests there. For which Cleveland(Lonardo/Licavoli) was getting 25%. Charlie's brother was in prison for doing an important hit for Cleveland and would have already been a member if he hadn't already been in prison. Pittsburgh came to Licavoli/Lonardo and complained about what Charlie was doing and Cleveland got Pittsburgh to give him a pass so long as he didn't do anything wrong moving forward. Pittsburgh then kills Charlie over a transgression, leaves his car in Cleveland and Pittsburgh apologizes for the car being dropped there. And Lonardo doesn't know anything about the 8 or so killings that took place. Half of them by his representative in Youngstown. Lonardo comes across as someone who knew almost nothing about mob affairs going on around him. Repeatedly.

Cleveland and Pittsburgh mafia families were never at war , even if Naples killed all the carabbia crew , Cleveland would of still got there cut .

If they were at war why would Pittsburg even bother to ask for permission to kill Charles ?

I figured that out after a year or so sitting next to Jimmy Prato in a few different RC poker games in Struthers. Besides Jimmy never seeing a card he didn't like it turns out he was there to make sure Pittsburgh got their cut. No one made money if they were at war and it's always about the money

Always about the money , Can we assume orlie was told not to try to retaliate. ?

Yes Naples had a army of guys armed to the teeth with guns , he would of been hard to get to with a out insider helping

[FriendofHenry]

I find the Cleveland-Pittsburgh Youngstown war fascinating. What I find most interesting is that Cleveland seems almost to have been totally in the dark about it. Angelo Lonardo barely knew anything about it, but that fits with him seeming to not know too much about anything going on with Cleveland even though he was the underboss.

they werent mob hits, why he care about some low level guys in youngstown ?

How were they not mob hits? His guy Charlie Carabbia was his partner in Youngstown for the vending/gambling rackets and was in charge of Cleveland interests there. For which Cleveland(Lonardo/Licavoli) was getting 25%. Charlie's brother was in prison for doing an important hit for Cleveland and would have already been a member if he hadn't already been in prison. Pittsburgh came to Licavoli/Lonardo and complained about what Charlie was doing and Cleveland got Pittsburgh to give him a pass so long as he didn't do anything wrong moving forward. Pittsburgh then kills Charlie over a transgression, leaves his car in Cleveland and Pittsburgh apologizes for the car being dropped there. And Lonardo doesn't know anything about the 8 or so killings that took place. Half of them by his representative in Youngstown. Lonardo comes across as someone who knew almost nothing about mob affairs going on around him. Repeatedly.

Cleveland and Pittsburgh mafia families were never at war , even if Naples killed all the carabbia crew , Cleveland would of still got there cut .

If they were at war why would Pittsburg even bother to ask for permission to kill Charles ?

I figured that out after a year or so sitting next to Jimmy Prato in a few different RC poker games in Struthers. Besides Jimmy never seeing a card he didn't like it turns out he was there to make sure Pittsburgh got their cut. No one made money if they were at war and it's always about the money

Always about the money , Can we assume orlie was told not to try to retaliate. ?

Yes Naples had a army of guys armed to the teeth with guns , he would of been hard to get to with a out insider helping

THat would seem to be logical but I've learned to assume nothing when it involved these two families. So your guess is as good or bad as mine.

[Ivan]

Cleveland did stop getting a cut eventually, yes? Probably after the Licavoli convictions?

I can't really picture Cleveland getting a cut in the Strollo era.

Of course no one gets a cut anywhere now. Probably not a bad time for independent bookies & sharks in the Valley.

[Stroccos]

Cleveland did stop getting a cut eventually, yes? Probably after the Licavoli convictions?

I can't really picture Cleveland getting a cut in the Strollo era.

Of course no one gets a cut anywhere now. Probably not a bad time for independent bookies & sharks in the Valley.

Tronolone got it when he became boss, don’t know when it ended probably in the late 80’s early 90’s if I had to guess