Camorra`s "membership"

[ThutmosisChen]

Camorra is more like a huge street gang , they are not like 'Ndrangheta or Sicilian mafia.Because of that Camorra clans appear and disappear every few years , people changing sides , its complete mess in Naples , compared to Calabria or Sicily.

Although I remember reading some clans like the Caselesis regard themselves as different from the other Camorra clans, thinking that they are a proper mafia organization. Also, some historical clans have been there for many decades so they are not all that unstable I guess.

[CabriniGreen]

Camorra is more like a huge street gang , they are not like 'Ndrangheta or Sicilian mafia.Because of that Camorra clans appear and disappear every few years , people changing sides , its complete mess in Naples , compared to Calabria or Sicily.

To a certain extent, I get that, but I also think it's a little bit of an oversimplification......




https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.napoli ... erico.html

These clans havent dissapeared or gone anywhere....



This is why I dont really like talking about Naples. It gets too much like my mafia is better than your mafia. Its ALL THE SAME SHIT BRO. Just in different regions.
For all the talk about the sicilians political connections, I think it gets lost just how LOCALIZED this actual power is. The Calabrians never get to where they are just extorting local municipalities in Calabria. That has finite growth.

The gangs ARE NOT THE CLANS. Naples might be mostly controlled by 5 family clans, who are more like bastardized criminal Corporations, than bastardized Political organizations. This is one of the reasons I find the time period after 1970 so fascinating, and the transatlantic clans, because I think this is around the time this evolution occured. This is when your groups like the Nuvolettas, Mazzarellas, Caruana- Cuntreras, Inzerillos, various Ndrangheta families started to focus on controlling commerce rather than local politics. Not that they didnt get involved in politics, but these clans became very business oriented. They formed what Saviano referred to as Criminal holding companies.
It's usually family clan, a surname being the standard around which these organizations form, or they are identified territorially. It's either Contini or Vanella Grassi, its Mancuso, or Piscopisani. Or Casalesi, then broken down into families, Zagaria, Schiavone, Bidgionetti, ect.....



You have the Orlando- Polverino- Nuvoletta, Vanella Grassi, and other independents as well.....





The gangs or minor clans appear and dissapear because the it's the business that matters. Whomever controls commerce changes, but the SYSTEM remains the same. And this is due largely to failures of the State.
The lack of legitimate investment and employment opportunities are largely responsible for delivering a good portion of the populace into Cammorra hands.
No monopolization of the use of capital, makes Mafia money as legit as any money. Makes them amongst the region's biggest employers. It legitimizes them. This leads to political power.
Saviano said a Mayor refusing a boss, would be akin to the whatever, Premier of Italy refusing a meeting with the CEO of Fiat. They are legit part of the ECONOMIC FABRIC of the region.



In Sicily, 80- 100k can buy you a town like Torreta or Calatafimi. When they controlled the land, you controlled the workforce, and therefore, most likely the town vote. In a city of say, 100k or more people.... how does one control the vote? No unions right? You control jobs, you provide opportunities whereas there otherwise wouldnt be any. It's like the government come in... covid restrictions, lockdowns, right? But they provide no relief, and the clans step in helping the populace. Businesses losing money, the clans step in.


When I look at these clans, they to me look more like dark versions of a company like.... really any family controlled corporation. It's closer to a criminal version of what you see in Succesion than say, The Sopranos.....



The Sicilian mafia is what... Neo Conservative? The Naples people are Neo Liberal. The Sicilians leveraged military strength by becoming guards for the wealthy and political elite, got political power, and used it to extract revenue from the territory. Military into Political into Economic. The Naples people build criminal business, which allows them to be amongst the region's "employers". They pay gunman and form armed wings, bringing military strength. They bring capital investment and employment where the State fails. This builds legitimacy amongst the populace, which becomes political strength. So Economic into military into political.
I see them as arriving at the same destination from different directions. The Sicilians have great agricultural wealth. The Naples people made fortunes poisoning the land. They BOTH engage in agricultural racketeering, controlling markets. I dunno...lol




I could add a lot more... I'm rambling now....this could be a good one....any thoughts anybody?

[CabriniGreen]

Naples is in the hands of the Secondigliano Alliance
At Federico II presented the investigative maps of the Prosecutor's Office. The Mazzarella clan "remained" in East Naples, but in the rest of the Metropolitan City the cartel consisting of Licciardi, Mallardo, Contini and Bosti dominates

Massimo Romano
November 26, 2021


Ablood-red map, with small yellow spots, tells of the criminal domination of Naples. The Prosecutor's Office reveals the investigative documents and that red color that covers 80 percent of the Metropolitan City represents the area of ​​influence of the Secondigliano Alliance, the criminal cartel made up of the Licciardi, Mallardo, Contini and Bosti clans.


Scampia, Secondigliano, Miano, Piscinola, but also Vomero, Fuorigrotta, Bangoli. The control of the Alliance is widespread. In the city there is only one other trust, that of the Mazzarella, which still controls the center, the coast from Piazza Mercato in San Giovanni, Poggioreale. And the situation does not change in the province. Portici and San Giorgio a Cremano are the only municipalities under the control of the Mazzarella. Frattamaggiore, Frattaminore, Crispano and Cardito are the only centers that are an exception and where independent clans operate. But the rest of the territory, from west to east, is in the hands of the Secondigliano cartel.

Presenting this picture is the chief prosecutor of Naples Giovanni Melillo, assisted by the men of the judicial police. "For too long - said Melillo - the ability of the clans to coordinate in the search for common objectives that are not only those of survival, but we are also talking about economic and social objectives, has been underestimated. This underestimation has long prevented us from seeing the dimension of these signs ".

The meeting at Federico II, introduced by the rector Matteo Lorito, was also propitious for the signing of the protocol between the University and the Public Prosecutor's Office for the study of the economic and social phenomena of the Camorra clans: "More and more - continued Melillo - criminal organizations are manifest as constellations of companies. An entrepreneurial fabric and corrupt relationships have increasingly grown alongside the top structures of the clans. This picture gives us a description of the Camorra far from that of the collective imagination, which sees it only as a generator of collective violence ".

[Strax]

Although I remember reading some clans like the Caselesis regard themselves as different from the other Camorra clans, thinking that they are a proper mafia organization. Also, some historical clans have been there for many decades so they are not all that unstable I guess.

Casalesi and Nuvolettas are different , they have hierarchy and mafia-like structure, there are even cases of people being 'made' into both Cosa Nostra and Nuvoletta.

This is why I dont really like talking about Naples. It gets too much like my mafia is better than your mafia. Its ALL THE SAME SHIT BRO. Just in different regions.

No one said anything about any mafia being "better" than the other one , crime is crime .But is Naples is different , as i said clans appear and disappear, alliances are forged and broken the next day , people change sides all the time(due to lack of membership) and they are most violent, you have literal kids riding on bikes shooting around randomly . In Sicily you have similar situation in Zen and thats about it, most of Camorra clans lack connections to freemasonry,secret services and so on.

[ThutmosisChen]

Going back to my original question, I do find in research about Camorra the authors usually address the concept of "clan members" and their associates/ footsoldiers, although I`m not completely sure how this differentiation is being determined in the actual investigation.

For instance, I cite from the book The Invisible Camorra: Neapolitan Crime Families across Europe chapter 6, regarding the structure of the Piccirillo clan.

In 1997, it was estimated that the Piccirillo clan had twelve members (Scribani,1997: 233), and by 2013 it had twenty-three (QN14: 1).
The Piccirillo clan had a limited membership and a very basic internal structure based on economic survival strategies and a hierarchical leadership. The nephew and two uncles were at once the leadership, the power axis, and the nucleus of the clan, with other relatives and loyal friends providing the periphery. Together, they made the executive decisions about the clan’s affairs, each being surrounded by a small cluster of trusted foot soldiers who implemented their orders.

The clan leader Gennaro Penzuto was identified as the only clan member that lived in the United Kingdom when he was arrested by the Lancashire police, although the book went on to explain that he took a few trusted "soldiers" with him when he settled down in the new country.

I suspect that the scholarly insight on who is considered to be a member of a clan and who isn`t is based on their interaction with the boss and other decision-makers of the clan. At least in the case of identifying the members of the La Torre clan, the researchers identified 57 clan members strictly based on the tapped phone calls among the leaders, and it makes a lot of sense, just like how the capos of an LCN crew would usually only talk to their soldiers instead of low-level associates, even though in the Camorra the ritual and formalization of a secret society no longer exist, the feudal nature of organized crime is still there, you have a handful of core members that form a clan, those are the people who can influence the decision-making process, while their own crew of associates is pretty much powerless and likely live off a pitiful salary.

[PolackTony]

Camorra is more like a huge street gang , they are not like 'Ndrangheta or Sicilian mafia.Because of that Camorra clans appear and disappear every few years , people changing sides , its complete mess in Naples , compared to Calabria or Sicily.

The Sicilian mafia is what... Neo Conservative? The Naples people are Neo Liberal. The Sicilians leveraged military strength by becoming guards for the wealthy and political elite, got political power, and used it to extract revenue from the territory. Military into Political into Economic. The Naples people build criminal business, which allows them to be amongst the region's "employers". They pay gunman and form armed wings, bringing military strength. They bring capital investment and employment where the State fails. This builds legitimacy amongst the populace, which becomes political strength. So Economic into military into political.

Excellent post and interesting argument here.

[Etna]

Everyone receives a salary instead of kicking up? That sounds even more organized than the other mafias. If you only kick up a percentage the bosses are only going to get their share of the profit but if the bosses collect all the cash and pay everyone else a salary they would have much tighter control on their people, like a real company with centralized finance. I can`t imagine these "loosely-affiliated" clans running like that. Are you sure it`s not only the low-level errand boys who get a salary and real Camorristi kick up to the boss? I think in many cases Saviano`s book was talking about these nearly-ordinary people who were employed by the Camorra in illegal industries instead of the actual ring leaders.

Read the book again. Saviano details salaries from the low-level errand boy up to the Underboss. They are not organized in the sense of a society. But no, the membership goes up and down. In Cosa Nostra, if half the borgata is taken out, the made membership still stands. In the Camorra, if a clan feels the same pressure, people can switch to another clan, form their own clan etc. That doesn't mean there are not consequences, but that type of allegiance shifting happens much more often in the Camorra as opposed to Cosa Nostra & 'Ndrangheta.

In fact, if you examine Cosa Nostra in western Sicily, it's much more stable because it has full hegemony and territorial organization. In eastern Sicily, there are clans not associated with Cosa Nostra. They are sicilian mafia-type organizations that are competition - which results in more violence. @CabriniGreen has also posted about them too.

The more violence in Naples doesn't necessarily mean that the organization is more capable of violence, but because the seat of power is unstable and constantly changing hands.

[Strax]

Read the book again. Saviano details salaries from the low-level errand boy up to the Underboss. They are not organized in the sense of a society. But no, the membership goes up and down. In Cosa Nostra, if half the borgata is taken out, the made membership still stands. In the Camorra, if a clan feels the same pressure, people can switch to another clan, form their own clan etc. That doesn't mean there are not consequences, but that type of allegiance shifting happens much more often in the Camorra as opposed to Cosa Nostra & 'Ndrangheta.

In fact, if you examine Cosa Nostra in western Sicily, it's much more stable because it has full hegemony and territorial organization. In eastern Sicily, there are clans not associated with Cosa Nostra. They are sicilian mafia-type organizations that are competition - which results in more violence. @CabriniGreen has also posted about them too.

The more violence in Naples doesn't necessarily mean that the organization is more capable of violence, but because the seat of power is unstable and constantly changing hands.

There are some Camorra clans that are able to hold territory and stay in power for years.Casalesi is probably most famous , but also Mallardo clan , in latest DIA report ,they said Mallardo clan is one of most solid organizations and most powerful organizations in whole Italy. They are in some sort of alliance with Casalesi but also with Contini and Licciardi .

Last year police seized 60$ million from Mallardo's ,some 15 companies,112 properties which included hotels and restaurants.

[CabriniGreen]

Everyone receives a salary instead of kicking up? That sounds even more organized than the other mafias. If you only kick up a percentage the bosses are only going to get their share of the profit but if the bosses collect all the cash and pay everyone else a salary they would have much tighter control on their people, like a real company with centralized finance. I can`t imagine these "loosely-affiliated" clans running like that. Are you sure it`s not only the low-level errand boys who get a salary and real Camorristi kick up to the boss? I think in many cases Saviano`s book was talking about these nearly-ordinary people who were employed by the Camorra in illegal industries instead of the actual ring leaders.

Read the book again. Saviano details salaries from the low-level errand boy up to the Underboss. They are not organized in the sense of a society. But no, the membership goes up and down. In Cosa Nostra, if half the borgata is taken out, the made membership still stands. In the Camorra, if a clan feels the same pressure, people can switch to another clan, form their own clan etc. That doesn't mean there are not consequences, but that type of allegiance shifting happens much more often in the Camorra as opposed to Cosa Nostra & 'Ndrangheta.

In fact, if you examine Cosa Nostra in western Sicily, it's much more stable because it has full hegemony and territorial organization. In eastern Sicily, there are clans not associated with Cosa Nostra. They are sicilian mafia-type organizations that are competition - which results in more violence. @CabriniGreen has also posted about them too.

The more violence in Naples doesn't necessarily mean that the organization is more capable of violence, but because the seat of power is unstable and constantly changing hands.

Yes..... some of the salaries were exorbant... in fact.
50k plus a month or more for some of the leaders.

[CabriniGreen]

Read the book again. Saviano details salaries from the low-level errand boy up to the Underboss. They are not organized in the sense of a society. But no, the membership goes up and down. In Cosa Nostra, if half the borgata is taken out, the made membership still stands. In the Camorra, if a clan feels the same pressure, people can switch to another clan, form their own clan etc. That doesn't mean there are not consequences, but that type of allegiance shifting happens much more often in the Camorra as opposed to Cosa Nostra & 'Ndrangheta.

In fact, if you examine Cosa Nostra in western Sicily, it's much more stable because it has full hegemony and territorial organization. In eastern Sicily, there are clans not associated with Cosa Nostra. They are sicilian mafia-type organizations that are competition - which results in more violence. @CabriniGreen has also posted about them too.

The more violence in Naples doesn't necessarily mean that the organization is more capable of violence, but because the seat of power is unstable and constantly changing hands.

There are some Camorra clans that are able to hold territory and stay in power for years.Casalesi is probably most famous , but also Mallardo clan , in latest DIA report ,they said Mallardo clan is one of most solid organizations and most powerful organizations in whole Italy. They are in some sort of alliance with Casalesi but also with Contini and Licciardi .

Last year police seized 60$ million from Mallardo's ,some 15 companies,112 properties which included hotels and restaurants.

This is actually the point I was trying to make awhile ago about the Catania clans.....

[ThutmosisChen]

Read the book again. Saviano details salaries from the low-level errand boy up to the Underboss. They are not organized in the sense of a society. But no, the membership goes up and down.

You are right. Even the cause of Raffaele Amato`s separation from the Di Lauros was that he refused to turn in his profit to the boss and live on a paid salary. However the book also talked about how thousands of "employees" of the clan were not regarded as members, although they all receive salaries.

[scagghiuni]

It is interesting that the old camorra was eliminated in the early 1900s, it had a pyramid structure and initiation rites, while the active clans today were all born in the 70s and they have a horizontal structure withouth initiation rites

[CabriniGreen]

It is interesting that the old camorra was eliminated in the early 1900s, it had a pyramid structure and initiation rites, while the active clans today were all born in the 70s and they have a horizontal structure withouth initiation rites

They are business based organizations. Also... Naples has always been about the port, and moving contraband to and from, not being close to politicians. Even with guys like Genovese in exile....

[ChicagoOutfit]

Very interesting thread.

If anyone had not yet read Gomorra I strongly urge you to. If you’ve somehow not seen the movie or the series yet, both are must see. S1 & S2 are as good as any season of The Sopranos or The Wire imho.

S3 outlines how a gang of low level criminals becomes more organized, better equipped, earns more, becomes more and more influential and becomes a clan within “the system.”

They start to be recognized as a clan or “members” of The Camorra the more influence they gain, and the more they interact with others within “the system”. There’s no formal “now you’re in The Camorra” moment or rite of passage. It develops as you gain more influence, earn more, control more and have more access to powerful leaders within “the system.”

The question of when are you defined as a member is somewhat similar to a question of “when are you a successful businessman?” There’s no definitive “now you’ve made it moment” it comes from growing your business and your reach with other people within the business community.

Someone with a small business making $500k/year in revenue may consider himself a “successful businessman” but compared to a person with a larger business generating $50M in revenue, that businessman wouldn’t think much of the first guy.

Similarly, some baby gang of 20 teenagers “controlling” a strip to sell dope and commit lower level crimes may consider themselves Camorristi yet compared to those in power controlling large swaths of territory they might not think anything of these teenagers or may just use them to push their products and once they kids grow and show more capabilities they’d be “recognized” more and more.

TLDR: there’s no definitive “now you’re in the Camorra” moment, particularly in the city.

[CabriniGreen]

Very interesting thread.

If anyone had not yet read Gomorra I strongly urge you to. If you’ve somehow not seen the movie or the series yet, both are must see. S1 & S2 are as good as any season of The Sopranos or The Wire imho.

S3 outlines how a gang of low level criminals becomes more organized, better equipped, earns more, becomes more and more influential and becomes a clan within “the system.”

They start to be recognized as a clan or “members” of The Camorra the more influence they gain, and the more they interact with others within “the system”. There’s no formal “now you’re in The Camorra” moment or rite of passage. It develops as you gain more influence, earn more, control more and have more access to powerful leaders within “the system.”

The question of when are you defined as a member is somewhat similar to a question of “when are you a successful businessman?” There’s no definitive “now you’ve made it moment” it comes from growing your business and your reach with other people within the business community.

Someone with a small business making $500k/year in revenue may consider himself a “successful businessman” but compared to a person with a larger business generating $50M in revenue, that businessman wouldn’t think much of the first guy.

Similarly, some baby gang of 20 teenagers “controlling” a strip to sell dope and commit lower level crimes may consider themselves Camorristi yet compared to those in power controlling large swaths of territory they might not think anything of these teenagers or may just use them to push their products and once they kids grow and show more capabilities they’d be “recognized” more and more.

TLDR: there’s no definitive “now you’re in the Camorra” moment, particularly in the city.

I really like this take... very good stuff here