In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[Angelo Santino]

Joe Bonanno asked me to post this for him.



Beyond some questionable claims (narcotics/extortion/number of members involved in illicit activity), I don't disagree with the basic structure of operations as he explained it.

Again, are we talking about the Mafia of Bonanno's day or today?

I'd argue his claim that he didn't allow the family to engage in narcotics or extortion is more than questionable. And even in his day (to say nothing of now), to claim a minority of members were engaged in full time illicit activity is pretty dubious.

The part where he says, "Family memberships do not entitle one to monetary stipend; it simply places the family member in a society of friends who can help each other through a network of connections," is the only part that really applies today. But that is only initial membership. Generally speaking, it's expected for soldiers to kick up to their captain, and captains to kick up to the administration.

And I should clarify that I think the majority of members in New York, past and present, have been engaged in both legal and illegal activities. Stradling both worlds has always been a central trait of the Mafia.

We have long-term examples of both the Bonannos and Genoveses not having a tax on its members for crimes committed.on the other hand, from Gravano and others it appears the Gambinos did have a more trickle up system as well as the Colombos. I don't have any sources on hand so Colombo experts please correct me but my takeaway was that the Colombo crews all send up an exuborant amount of their earnings to the admin (Persicos). This is, of course only focused on NY and not the AM as a whole.

Re. Bonanno's on drugs I'd argue that he was anti-drug and tried to get people off them since the mob got out of drugs in the 1950's... lol.... we both agree that Bonanno has been less than honest about that subject. In fact alot of Montreal's mafia problems reverberate back to his actions in the 60's. But while he may have glossed over this topic, he may have been more honest about the organizational issues which is what B. was explaining. Much of what Bonanno said about the cultural aspects of the organization still apply in many respects.

Re. Straddling both the legitimate and illegitimate worlds, he also said something to the effect of his Family during his day that they had no members who made their living exclusively through illegal means. Many had jobs and not every one was a manager position. When we hear today about members who work legitimate jobs it is sometimes used as an example of how far the mob has fallen but in reality it's always been that way.

[Wiseguy]

We have long-term examples of both the Bonannos and Genoveses not having a tax on its members for crimes committed.on the other hand, from Gravano and others it appears the Gambinos did have a more trickle up system as well as the Colombos. I don't have any sources on hand so Colombo experts please correct me but my takeaway was that the Colombo crews all send up an exuborant amount of their earnings to the admin (Persicos). This is, of course only focused on NY and not the AM as a whole.

The question is, the examples you can find, are they the rule or the exception? I'd argue the latter. Chin not taking tribute from most of his captains, for example, was noted precisely because it was not the general situation.

Re. Straddling both the legitimate and illegitimate worlds, he also said something to the effect of his Family during his day that they had no members who made their living exclusively through illegal means. Many had jobs and not every one was a manager position. When we hear today about members who work legitimate jobs it is sometimes used as an example of how far the mob has fallen but in reality it's always been that way.

Obviously involvement in the legitimate world can come in a number of forms, i.e. no-show jobs, owning a legitimate company, legit investments, etc. I think this applies to most members. In other words, I would agree that most don't exclusively make money from illegal means.

[B.]

We have long-term examples of both the Bonannos and Genoveses not having a tax on its members for crimes committed.on the other hand, from Gravano and others it appears the Gambinos did have a more trickle up system as well as the Colombos. I don't have any sources on hand so Colombo experts please correct me but my takeaway was that the Colombo crews all send up an exuborant amount of their earnings to the admin (Persicos). This is, of course only focused on NY and not the AM as a whole.

The question is, the examples you can find, are they the rule or the exception? I'd argue the latter. Chin not taking tribute from most of his captains, for example, was noted precisely because it was not the general situation.

Went over it early in the thread, but Frank Costello and Tom Gagliano didn't demand tribute, plus multiple generations of Bonanno leaders made the same claims. One of the alleged reasons for the Gallo revolt under Profaci was him taking money from members, suggesting it was out of the norm in some of these circles.

Many examples that people believe are exceptional turn out to be part of a longer trend with this subject. In the Genovese Family and other groups there was precedent for Gigante's approach, but those covering the subject may have been unaware.

[Wiseguy]

Went over it early in the thread, but Frank Costello and Tom Gagliano didn't demand tribute, plus multiple generations of Bonanno leaders made the same claims. One of the alleged reasons for the Gallo revolt under Profaci was him taking money from members, suggesting it was out of the norm in some of these circles.

Many examples that people believe are exceptional turn out to be part of a longer trend with this subject. In the Genovese Family and other groups there was precedent for Gigante's approach, but those covering the subject may have been unaware.

This thread started with essentially a tutorial on what the Mafia is really like or how it really works. Problem is, you generally have to go to the distant past to make the theory presented work even to a degree. If we're talking about the modern-day Mafia, does anyone believe a majority of members (or even a significant minority) have not committed crimes as part of their life in the mob? Does anyone believe most administrations and captains are not expecting tribute from their subordinates?

[Angelo Santino]

I wouldnt call it a tutorial, but rather a distinction made between a crime hierarchy and the mafia and how there is a cultural aspect that weaves it together. That argument skewed into a tangent centered around criminality.

The mafia has a culture that we take forgeanted because it's not on the surface but it's there. In 1920 there were castellammarese and palermitan, today there are brooklynites and Bronx guys. Pennisi gave a good example when he described his "Brooklyn crew" as all being in Staten island but called themselves that because of where they came from.

Bootlegging and drug trafficking were both crime waves the mafia was involved in. But again, the ranks of the mafia and the ranks of the others aren't the same. Most groups have treasurers in some form because they are set up to be specialized criminal operations. The mafia doesnt have that, people can act as that informally but there generally aren't official crime family treasurers. This is because the mafia hierarchy isn't set up to manage criminal activity, it's set up to manage its members who engage in criminal activity. There is a distinction.

[Wiseguy]

I wouldnt call it a tutorial, but rather a distinction made between a crime hierarchy and the mafia and how there is a cultural aspect that weaves it together. That argument skewed into a tangent centered around criminality.

The mafia has a culture that we take forgeanted because it's not on the surface but it's there. In 1920 there were castellammarese and palermitan, today there are brooklynites and Bronx guys. Pennisi gave a good example when he described his "Brooklyn crew" as all being in Staten island but called themselves that because of where they came from.

Bootlegging and drug trafficking were both crime waves the mafia was involved in. But again, the ranks of the mafia and the ranks of the others aren't the same. Most groups have treasurers in some form because they are set up to be specialized criminal operations. The mafia doesnt have that, people can act as that informally but there generally aren't official crime family treasurers. This is because the mafia hierarchy isn't set up to manage criminal activity, it's set up to manage its members who engage in criminal activity. There is a distinction.

The above I would largely agree with and the distinction is why the Mafia has been more diversified than other groups that specialize in one thing or another. It's the distinction the feds often make between organized crime (LCN) and criminal enterprises.

[B.]

I agree there have been changes to the organization but I also don't see a black and white cut off point where the history of the organization becomes irrelevant. The organization has an extremely long memory, even if much of it is subliminal to the day-to-day operations. One of the reasons I enjoy the history of this subject is because of how often I read something and am amazed to discover the past isn't as far away as it seems.

Those recent Italian investigations from Torretta and Castellammare involving Americans could be from 1920 in terms of what they uncovered about the role of the groups and relationships involved, not to mention the protocol. If you're not interested in that stuff that's totally fine -- I benefit from what you have to say based on your area of focus, but I can't deny other events and interactions that take place either.

[HairyKnuckles]

...because the mafia hierarchy isn't set up to manage criminal activity, it's set up to manage its members who engage in criminal activity. There is a distinction.

Absolutely! I couldn´t agree more. And it´s not like Paul Castellano (for example) ordered a brokster member of his Family to go out and rob someone because that is what he is "supposed" to do.

[CabriniGreen]

...because the mafia hierarchy isn't set up to manage criminal activity, it's set up to manage its members who engage in criminal activity. There is a distinction.

Absolutely! I couldn´t agree more. And it´s not like Paul Castellano (for example) ordered a brokster member of his Family to go out and rob someone because that is what he is "supposed" to do.

And yet, you had a guy like Castellano get chastised by a guy like Chin, precisely for using the Commision, the mafias decision making apparatus, for the managing of criminal operations directly like the Construction rackets.


We really could do this all day.......

[Villain]

FBI summarizing info from Italian authorities:

Regarding kicking up proceedings in the Chicago family...



I would still say CN was/is the most successful OC organization in the world in terms of longevity and making money. Not much different from the rest...

[CabriniGreen]

I wouldnt call it a tutorial, but rather a distinction made between a crime hierarchy and the mafia and how there is a cultural aspect that weaves it together. That argument skewed into a tangent centered around criminality.

The mafia has a culture that we take forgeanted because it's not on the surface but it's there. In 1920 there were castellammarese and palermitan, today there are brooklynites and Bronx guys. Pennisi gave a good example when he described his "Brooklyn crew" as all being in Staten island but called themselves that because of where they came from.

Bootlegging and drug trafficking were both crime waves the mafia was involved in. But again, the ranks of the mafia and the ranks of the others aren't the same. Most groups have treasurers in some form because they are set up to be specialized criminal operations. The mafia doesnt have that, people can act as that informally but there generally aren't official crime family treasurers. This is because the mafia hierarchy isn't set up to manage criminal activity, it's set up to manage its members who engage in criminal activity. There is a distinction.

I'll make a slight alteration... the mafia engages in an endless pursuit of it's own POWER as an independent entity, at the expense of the legit authority, and this can take the form of criminal activity, as well as legitimate employment or enterprises.
Either methodology is deemed acceptable.

You guys seem to want to single out SPECIFIC crimes as being beneath the mafia, when they will literally do anything for MONEY AND POWER. Like, we all know the mafia is superior to a gang. Is this the point here? It's why I had to point out to you, there are literally examples of the things you say they will NEVER DO. They do EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN, lol


Look, like, take Pennisi... yes. A mafiosi is capable of working a regular job, without commiting crimes. But this gains him no POWER, and I would argue, limited respect within the organization. He got ran out of the family over a broad. If he has something more going on, or is a little more respected, I dont think he gets chased. If he has some moneymaking venture legit OR illegal, they woulda been making excuses to NOT hit him.

Sammy got to switch families over some beef over a broad. Why not Pennisi, when he was cool with a lot of Gambinos? It's his lack of criminal activity, AND his lack of legitimate enterprises, that weakened his mafia standing. They didnt give a shit how much of a hard worker or how low key he was, really. He couldnt DO anything for anyone. He had no power. The mafia is about power, not this kumbaya shit, lol[/quote]

Yes, it can. But it's also not centralized in its focus. Different members do they own thing, sometimes working with other members or by themselves. There are bosses who have suggested this or that (Castellano and construction; Steve mazzone and Atlantic City) but the group doesnt automatically change course with 100% of "the family's" resources not focused on that.

Crimes are not beneath the mafia member but they are beneath the mafia hierarchy. When I say hierarchy I am not speaking of people but rather the functions of hierarchy positions.

You keep bringing up Kumbaya and imply that I'm trying to romanticize or legitimize the scope of the mafia when I'm not. I'm just discussing a non-criminal aspect of it which were not used to seeing because it's not the core focus of the genre. It's not any attempt on my part to justify but only explain. Theres a reason the mafia has continuities.

[Villain]

Crimes are not beneath the mafia member but they are beneath the mafia hierarchy. When I say hierarchy I am not speaking of people but rather the functions of hierarchy positions.

Nicely said. The files I previously posted confirm that same statement.

[CabriniGreen]

Crimes are not beneath the mafia member but they are beneath the mafia hierarchy. When I say hierarchy I am not speaking of people but rather the functions of hierarchy positions.

Nicely said. The files I previously posted confirm that same statement.

Bruh, I can find contemporary examples here too..

Accursio Diminio, wanted to do slot machines, legit produce, OR .....murder for hire? Like...... and he was a boss, close to Denaro and others as well. He didnt give a fuck, as long as it made money. I think he actually turned DOWN a job, I gotta dig the article up......

I love Ebolis article on Catena. Did you read the part on his attempts to get into something as harmless as DETERGENT? This to me is mafia " Legitimacy" in a nutshell.


I saw Hairy's post about how Castellano would never order you to commit a robbery. Then I cant help but remember Gotti ordering the reopening of the pipeline, or that Calderone book, where the Ercolano kid gets made, at the ceremony they tell him, " You cant steal", and hes like, " What?.... but I steal." And the guys like, "No, you misunderstand, you can steal..." ..

Let's take out the crime part. What is the PURPOSE of the mafia at that point? The overarching strategy, the actual goal of the organization? What methodology do they use to gain power?

[Villain]

I love Ebolis article on Catena. Did you read the part on his attempts to get into something as harmless as DETERGENT? This to me is mafia " Legitimacy" in a nutshell.


I saw Hairy's post about how Castellano would never order you to commit a robbery. Then I cant help but remember Gotti ordering the reopening of the pipeline, or that Calderone book, where the Ercolano kid gets made, at the ceremony they tell him, " You cant steal", and hes like, " What?.... but I steal." And the guys like, "No, you misunderstand, you can steal..." ..

Let's take out the crime part. What is the PURPOSE of the mafia at that point? The overarching strategy, the actual goal of the organization? What methodology do they use to gain power?

Old time Outfit boss Murray Humphreys (one of Chicagos most ruthless racketeers and a killer) also hated robbers and refused to deal with them, and above all he advised the rest of the top admin to stay away from those guys. This doesnt prove anything since Humphreys was still a racketeer, kidnapper and killer.

I also agree regarding the point of Catena getting into something as harmless as detergent, since these guys also sold FAKE food like painted olives and peppers (speaking about Robin Hood and brotherhood stuff )

If you take out the crime part from Cosa Nostra, youll get a bunch of men working in different legitimate institutions and companies and share their paychecks between each other and kick up to the oldest of members who in turn receive the highest of paychecks

[Wiseguy]

...because the mafia hierarchy isn't set up to manage criminal activity, it's set up to manage its members who engage in criminal activity. There is a distinction.

Absolutely! I couldn´t agree more. And it´s not like Paul Castellano (for example) ordered a brokster member of his Family to go out and rob someone because that is what he is "supposed" to do.

And yet, you had a guy like Castellano get chastised by a guy like Chin, precisely for using the Commision, the mafias decision making apparatus, for the managing of criminal operations directly like the Construction rackets.


We really could do this all day.......

They're the exception to the rule but other examples would be the the bosses of 4 NY families overseeing the Concrete Club or the families assigning specific people to oversee the gas tax scam.