Is Catania actually stronger than Palermo currently?

[Strax]

Its not just situation in Pagliarelli but all over Palermo we see people go to the mafia when they need help/something done , instead of going to state and institutions. There are a tons of arrests in Palermo all the time , but they are actually growing stronger and stronger after Riina's war vs state that crippled them( not just Riina's , they never managed to uncover whole political background behind all of it ). Also a lot of arrested guys get released, in Italy you are guilty until proven otherwise, so arrested guys get released after trial. Also a lot of seized assets goes back to mafia hands , no one wants to buy assets seized from the mafia , so they are bough back by people close to organized crime again and again. I even think mafia in Trapani is stronger than Catania.

[Strax]

Also their power mostly come from connections to politicians/secret services/masonic lodges and in Palermo are most powerful ones.

Stefano Carmelo Serpa pentito from 'Ndrangheta during Stato-Mafia trial said:

"I'm afraid, these people are very dangerous. I speak neither of the 'Ndrangheta nor of politicians, but of the secret services. And before talking about the relations between 'Ndrangheta and Cosa Nostra, I want serious assurances about my security. You don't know the submerged part of the 'Ndrangheta. It means that inside there are people who have even greater power than what Paolo De Stefano had. There are characters inside that at their command were worth and still worth more than him. But these are people you don't even know. They don't even have a fine."

Its pretty much same with Cosa Nostra and Palermo is center their power since forever. Camorra lacks the connections that 'Ndrangheta and Sicilians have.

[Etna]

Relatively speaking, eastern Sicily is to the Mafia what the western U.S. was. It's like comparing the families in Texas, Colorado or California to New York

Yes and no.

There was never many independent mafia groups in the western United States. In eastern Sicily there are numerous groups that are independent or answer directly to various factions.

I believe much of the mafia in the province of Messina is independent. For instance, the San Mauro Castleverde mandamento of Palermo's province extends into Messina to places like Mistretta. But you have the Barcelonesi who seem to be an independent organization. Then if you go to the city of Messina you have groups under the influence of the Mafia in Catani (whether Santapaola-Ercolano or even Cursoti or other independents).

Then you have the fact that Catania had 1 family of the Catania cosca, but the other groups are still classified as "mafia type organizations." For instance, when I was in Corleone at the Anti-Mafia museum, I asked about the Stidda. The girl there had no idea who they were. She simply said "it is all Mafia."

Anyway, the second family of Catania is Caltagirone, whose founder was from a family I believe in Caltanisetta ( cant recall which). But then you have the groups of Siracusa and Ragusa. Ragusa is simply Stidda of the Carbonardo-Dominante group and the Piscopo group which I believe was an extension of the Rinzivello clan of Gela. Then in Siracusa you have various mafia factions as well, but I believe one may be considered Cosa Nostra (not sure). However, in Catania, I believe the various groups like Capello and others were once cosa nostra, but when the Calderones were taken out by the Corleonesi, they rebelled. But the Capello group, if I am not mistaken, is really a branch of the LoPiccolos in Tomasso-Natale, but almost act as a sub-family.

These types of structures really do not exist in the USA.

I can understand where the strength comes into play for Palermo. Cosa Nostra in Palermo has strict geographic territories, but, the thing that always seems confusing is how the territories do not change often. Resuttana family never tried to take over Acquasanta etc. But, I also read in a book that the mafia families in Palermo typically distribute their funds of salaries to members at the Mandamento level. So in some cases, in an attempt to mimic the size of the NY families, the new "operating body" of Palermo may in fact be the Mandamento.

Sorry for the thoughts.

Great post.... I really was just trying to spark a conversation about the Catania Cosa Nostra, which is pretty interesting to me....

Maybe I worded the Title of the thread incorrectly....

What I was really asking.... is the Catania family, amongst say, the top 15, maybe even top 10 families in Sicily? I know Palermo has more money, but that money also has to be split many different ways, many more than in Catania. Also, I've seen Italian authorities on several occasions say the Naples clans actually make more money in Italy. Not that they are more organized, or have more political contacts. Thst they make more money, I'm sure you guys have seen the same estimates...

Sorry, I did not intend to stray beyond Catania either. Except I think to understand Catania, you need to include territories beyond Catania. Palermo is fixed on a geographic territory, where as the Catania cosca and others are constantly expanding into other areas that are not as clearly defined. But I think the Catania cosca is definitely among the more powerful families. But I don't have enough information about manpower or legit/illegitimate assets for each family.

As illegal as these organizations are though, I'd love to see the impossible scenario of them publishing their own financial statements.

[CabriniGreen]

Relatively speaking, eastern Sicily is to the Mafia what the western U.S. was. It's like comparing the families in Texas, Colorado or California to New York

Yes and no.

There was never many independent mafia groups in the western United States. In eastern Sicily there are numerous groups that are independent or answer directly to various factions.

I believe much of the mafia in the province of Messina is independent. For instance, the San Mauro Castleverde mandamento of Palermo's province extends into Messina to places like Mistretta. But you have the Barcelonesi who seem to be an independent organization. Then if you go to the city of Messina you have groups under the influence of the Mafia in Catani (whether Santapaola-Ercolano or even Cursoti or other independents).

Then you have the fact that Catania had 1 family of the Catania cosca, but the other groups are still classified as "mafia type organizations." For instance, when I was in Corleone at the Anti-Mafia museum, I asked about the Stidda. The girl there had no idea who they were. She simply said "it is all Mafia."

Anyway, the second family of Catania is Caltagirone, whose founder was from a family I believe in Caltanisetta ( cant recall which). But then you have the groups of Siracusa and Ragusa. Ragusa is simply Stidda of the Carbonardo-Dominante group and the Piscopo group which I believe was an extension of the Rinzivello clan of Gela. Then in Siracusa you have various mafia factions as well, but I believe one may be considered Cosa Nostra (not sure). However, in Catania, I believe the various groups like Capello and others were once cosa nostra, but when the Calderones were taken out by the Corleonesi, they rebelled. But the Capello group, if I am not mistaken, is really a branch of the LoPiccolos in Tomasso-Natale, but almost act as a sub-family.

These types of structures really do not exist in the USA.

I can understand where the strength comes into play for Palermo. Cosa Nostra in Palermo has strict geographic territories, but, the thing that always seems confusing is how the territories do not change often. Resuttana family never tried to take over Acquasanta etc. But, I also read in a book that the mafia families in Palermo typically distribute their funds of salaries to members at the Mandamento level. So in some cases, in an attempt to mimic the size of the NY families, the new "operating body" of Palermo may in fact be the Mandamento.

Sorry for the thoughts.

Great post.... I really was just trying to spark a conversation about the Catania Cosa Nostra, which is pretty interesting to me....

Maybe I worded the Title of the thread incorrectly....

What I was really asking.... is the Catania family, amongst say, the top 15, maybe even top 10 families in Sicily? I know Palermo has more money, but that money also has to be split many different ways, many more than in Catania. Also, I've seen Italian authorities on several occasions say the Naples clans actually make more money in Italy. Not that they are more organized, or have more political contacts. Thst they make more money, I'm sure you guys have seen the same estimates...

Sorry, I did not intend to stray beyond Catania either. Except I think to understand Catania, you need to include territories beyond Catania. Palermo is fixed on a geographic territory, where as the Catania cosca and others are constantly expanding into other areas that are not as clearly defined. But I think the Catania cosca is definitely among the more powerful families. But I don't have enough information about manpower or legit/illegitimate assets for each family.

As illegal as these organizations are though, I'd love to see the impossible scenario of them publishing their own financial statements.

Oh, dont apologize..... your post was VERY interesting...
Like I said, I maybe Titled the thread incorrectly.....

[Etna]

Relatively speaking, eastern Sicily is to the Mafia what the western U.S. was. It's like comparing the families in Texas, Colorado or California to New York

Yes and no.

There was never many independent mafia groups in the western United States. In eastern Sicily there are numerous groups that are independent or answer directly to various factions.

I believe much of the mafia in the province of Messina is independent. For instance, the San Mauro Castleverde mandamento of Palermo's province extends into Messina to places like Mistretta. But you have the Barcelonesi who seem to be an independent organization. Then if you go to the city of Messina you have groups under the influence of the Mafia in Catani (whether Santapaola-Ercolano or even Cursoti or other independents).

Then you have the fact that Catania had 1 family of the Catania cosca, but the other groups are still classified as "mafia type organizations." For instance, when I was in Corleone at the Anti-Mafia museum, I asked about the Stidda. The girl there had no idea who they were. She simply said "it is all Mafia."

Anyway, the second family of Catania is Caltagirone, whose founder was from a family I believe in Caltanisetta ( cant recall which). But then you have the groups of Siracusa and Ragusa. Ragusa is simply Stidda of the Carbonardo-Dominante group and the Piscopo group which I believe was an extension of the Rinzivello clan of Gela. Then in Siracusa you have various mafia factions as well, but I believe one may be considered Cosa Nostra (not sure). However, in Catania, I believe the various groups like Capello and others were once cosa nostra, but when the Calderones were taken out by the Corleonesi, they rebelled. But the Capello group, if I am not mistaken, is really a branch of the LoPiccolos in Tomasso-Natale, but almost act as a sub-family.

These types of structures really do not exist in the USA.

I can understand where the strength comes into play for Palermo. Cosa Nostra in Palermo has strict geographic territories, but, the thing that always seems confusing is how the territories do not change often. Resuttana family never tried to take over Acquasanta etc. But, I also read in a book that the mafia families in Palermo typically distribute their funds of salaries to members at the Mandamento level. So in some cases, in an attempt to mimic the size of the NY families, the new "operating body" of Palermo may in fact be the Mandamento.

Sorry for the thoughts.

Great post.... I really was just trying to spark a conversation about the Catania Cosa Nostra, which is pretty interesting to me....

Maybe I worded the Title of the thread incorrectly....

What I was really asking.... is the Catania family, amongst say, the top 15, maybe even top 10 families in Sicily? I know Palermo has more money, but that money also has to be split many different ways, many more than in Catania. Also, I've seen Italian authorities on several occasions say the Naples clans actually make more money in Italy. Not that they are more organized, or have more political contacts. Thst they make more money, I'm sure you guys have seen the same estimates...

Sorry, I did not intend to stray beyond Catania either. Except I think to understand Catania, you need to include territories beyond Catania. Palermo is fixed on a geographic territory, where as the Catania cosca and others are constantly expanding into other areas that are not as clearly defined. But I think the Catania cosca is definitely among the more powerful families. But I don't have enough information about manpower or legit/illegitimate assets for each family.

As illegal as these organizations are though, I'd love to see the impossible scenario of them publishing their own financial statements.

Oh, dont apologize..... your post was VERY interesting...
Like I said, I maybe Titled the thread incorrectly.....

Eastern Sicily is an area I'd like to learn more about as far as OC goes.