Evolution of US Mafia Families + More Families Discussion

[felice]

Carini 16 made men in the 90s? there were not turncoats yet so numbers are too small

[B.]

Carini 16 made men in the 90s? there were not turncoats yet so numbers are too small

That excerpt was from Letizia Paoli's research. No real opinion on it myself, only that there's a pattern of Sicilian families being much smaller than most US families.

[felice]

That's very interesting indeed. Many made members have been really secretive for years, in new investigations they still find people completely unknown, even in the last torretta investigation there are 3-4 guys totally unexpected which nobody did ever name as member of that cosca

[cobra]

Carini 16 made men in the 90s? there were not turncoats yet so numbers are too small

-i saw this book
-reference unpublished DIA report: Famiglia di Carini
-the number should be correct
-carini was on "losing side"
-stefano gallina killed
-other "escape" to new york
-carini should then be given to partinico i think
-probably the corleonesi control this family size so only few people get made

[B.]

Mentioned it in the Detroit thread, but Buscetta said there were only two made members in Terrasini (that he knew of at least) even though it still constituted a family. He said a town could have one living member and still be recognized as a borgata.

It's like something Chris Christie pointed out about Castellammare, where the Bonanno family in the 1920s-1960s probably had more made members from Castellammare than the borgata in Castellammare had itself. I used to assume that if there were ~100 made members in the US from a certain village, that Sicilian village's own borgata must have had that many members or more but that doesn't seem to be true.

This could also mean that fewer early US mafia members were made in Sicily before they arrived here given the Sicilians had limited membership. Would be cool to list all of the early US mafia members who are confirmed being made in Sicily -- if we didn't have Gentile and Bonanno's autobiographies, we might assume they were made in Sicily but they weren't.

[Extortion]

Mentioned it in the Detroit thread, but Buscetta said there were only two made members in Terrasini (that he knew of at least) even though it still constituted a family. He said a town could have one living member and still be recognized as a borgata.

It's like something Chris Christie pointed out about Castellammare, where the Bonanno family in the 1920s-1960s probably had more made members from Castellammare than the borgata in Castellammare had itself. I used to assume that if there were ~100 made members in the US from a certain village, that Sicilian village's own borgata must have had that many members or more but that doesn't seem to be true.

This could also mean that fewer early US mafia members were made in Sicily before they arrived here given the Sicilians had limited membership. Would be cool to list all of the early US mafia members who are confirmed being made in Sicily -- if we didn't have Gentile and Bonanno's autobiographies, we might assume they were made in Sicily but they weren't.

Yeah I mean all the chicken nuggets in america made it more big time if you catch what Im sayin

[cobra]

-some turncoats they said the mafia has about 5000 member in sicily
-there are about 150 mafia families (cosa nostra) in sicily
-so 5000 / 150 = 33,33 members per family
-so if some families got more than 50 members
-this means some should be smaller

[B.]

-some turncoats they said the mafia has about 5000 member in sicily
-there are about 150 mafia families (cosa nostra) in sicily
-so 5000 / 150 = 33,33 members per family
-so if some families got more than 50 members
-this means some should be smaller

Appreciate your info about Sicily, Cobra.

Has anything ever come out about Sicilian families having a membership limit or cap? We know they had rules (sometimes enforced, sometimes not) about relatives being made into the same borgata and the entire idea of the Sicilian mafia is to keep the power within a select group. It would make sense if they had a cap given they put other rules in place to control inductions, and we can see they kept families fairly small.

We know the mafia in the early US and Sicily passed proposed members' names around, so that one is an old practice.

Buscetta said when he was proposed for membership in the 1940s his name was sent around Sicily for approval, same way it's done in the US. Salvatore Clemente told the Secret Service about someone having their name passed around for approval in early NYC too (I want to say 1910s). Morello's letter to another boss in the early 1900s talks about how a proposed member's name has to be taken to his home village in Sicily for approval/feedback, too.

We still don't know when the cap rules were put in place in the US, or if it was inherited from Sicily. We're finding most things do go back to Sicily.

[felice]

Largest families in Palermo were Santa Maria di Gesù (120 members circa) and Brancaccio.

[felice]

In the province the biggest families were Bagheria and Belmonte Mezzagno

[felice]

Porta Nuova was a small family when Buscetta was inducted, at its peak they arrived to 50-60 made members

[B.]

So Santa Maria did have 100+ members? I remember being confused whether that was the mandamento or the single Santa Maria borgata.

I'm surprised to hear Belmonte was a big family.

Villabate had the most members identified by Sangiorgi. We know those lists weren't necessarily comprehensive, but it's a good indication Villabate was at one point one of the larger families.

Thanks, Felice.

[felice]

yes Villabate too indeed. 120 is just Santa Maria di Gesù according to Marino Mannoia

[felice]

Mannoia anyway identified only 60 made members circa but he said there were many old timers he was not aware about

[B.]

So there might have been Sicilian precedent for Lucchese/Colombo/Bonanno-sized families in Palermo. Still, NYC took it to an extreme with 300 member families.

We know also that the US mafia influenced the Sicilian mafia over time, so I'd be curious if Santa Maria had 100+ members early in their history or if they grew to that size later.