Andrew Scoppa

[motorfab]

Yer its clear that the rizzuto's dont actually perform the traditional LCN ceremony, for what ever reason. Seems pretty strange that they don't though with them being a largely siggy operation.

So that's where I get confused. Are they recognized by Sicily or America as a borgata or what?

Sicily definitely, USA I don't know but probably

[OcSleeper]

Seems odd Arcadi isn't mentioned much. He was at the center of all this back in the mid-2000s. But since his release in 2017 I don't think there has been anything. His name wasn't even mentioned on that list of targets they found on Desjardins' bodyguard a few weeks back.

I remember when he was originally released back in 2016 an article stated authorities claimed Arcadi and Giodano were looking to take back control of Montreal. Maybe the murder of Giodano put a damper on those plans?

[stubbs]

The truth is nobody knows what their current status is.

If anything, these guys seem more like a Mexican drug cartel than a tightly-structured mafia family. The boss gets removed and the whole thing collapses into war and chaos. As opposed to the mafia where the boss simply gets replaced and business continues on as usual.

The Bonannos could still technically control Montreal, but likely don’t have the power or clout to actually do it. And the guys in Montreal may not give a fuck about following mob protocol and just care more about moving coke. They could just be operating on their own without being a new family or being part of any family. Anything is possible at this point.

[B.]

Not sure where people are getting info about Montreal being a recognized Sicilian "cosca" or details about the Montreal induction process. Did some major information drop that most of us were unaware of?

[johnny_scootch]

Montreal breaking away after the Murder of Sciascia is simply not true. As we know Dom Cicale said Montreal was still sending tribute to NY while Vincent Bascaino was Acting Boss, he even increased the amount they had to pay and they paid. Also Nick Rizzuto picked up on a bug talking about the expected arrival of Sal Montagna in Montreal and how he would not take orders from Sal even though Montagna outranked him indirectly implying they were still part of the same organization.

Like Stubbs said no one knows wtf their status is.

[nizarsoccer]

Dumb question, but do we even know if Leonardo Rizzuto and Stefano Sollecito are "made" with anyone?

[OcSleeper]

Dumb question, but do we even know if Leonardo Rizzuto and Stefano Sollecito are "made" with anyone?

Not a dumb question. To answer though, no there's nothing out there that has said they were made. But there are a few things that would suggest they are.

[Frank]

I wonder if Rizzuto was made by his father or grandfather. Or if he was made on his trip to Italy.

[motorfab]

Not sure where people are getting info about Montreal being a recognized Sicilian "cosca" or details about the Montreal induction process. Did some major information drop that most of us were unaware of?

I relied mainly on Leonardo's trips to Italy. That said I am not asserting anything, as johnny_scotch says it seems that Montreal continues to send envelopes to NY.

To put it simply, as stubbs, I swear nothing on the current status of Montreal, it was just my point of view

[B.]

Got it, man. Wasn't sure if I had missed something big. Montreal gives us room for different POVs.

One thing we don't know is if the Rizzutos only held a grudge against certain Bonanno leaders and not others, or if there was a grudge against the entire Bonanno family. According to Cicale, there didn't seem to be an issue between Basciano and Rizzuto, and Basciano had been close to Sciascia. When Basciano asked for a higher Christmas tribute from Montreal, Sal Montagna collected it from the reluctant Rizzutos. Vito was in prison by this time, so Nick Rizzuto either approved of it or was aware of it. The Bonanno leadership didn't demand regular tribute from its captains, only Christmas tribute, which explains why Basciano only wanted Christmas money from them.

Capeci's 2010 article hammered home the idea that the NYC Bonanno Sicilian faction (which was mostly a mystery then) was heavily invested in the Montreal conflict, or at least Nick Jr.'s murder. This might be because Sal Montagna was their man up there but we can't be sure some of them don't have their own connections to Montreal. Damiano Zummo's father was a zip heroin trafficker at Cafe Aiello and Damiano traveled to Ontario on official business. A lot of Sicilians have ties to Canada.

The bottom line for me is these are Cosa Nostra members who want to be recognized, so they must be affiliated with someone. The theory that the Montreal Sicilian faction could petition their paesani in Sicily to arrange for them to start their own group is as good as any other theory, but it would require approval of both US and Sicilian mafia leadership. Both the Sicilians and Montreal would want approval from the US, as the mafia trends toward cooperation and it's to Montreal's advantage to have an open channel with other N.American Cosa Nostra families.

Our existing knowledge on Montreal is that members either belong to the Bonanno family or an affiliate group of Sicilian mafiosi. Until definitive info comes out that Montreal Cosa Nostra members are recognized as their own mafia family or members of another group, I would carry the remaining members as Bonanno soldiers. Either way these guys want to have their membership recognized and Montreal doesn't operate in a vacuum.

It'd be exciting if we found out for sure Montreal established their own family recognized by the rest of the mafia... the first formation of a new Cosa Nostra family in N.America in how many decades. Until we have hard evidence, I have to be conservative and say Montreal is historically a Bonanno crew because that's what we know of the remaining membership.

I think most theories on Montreal are worth entertaining since we know so little from the inside. One theory I have a hard time buying is that membership in Cosa Nostra doesn't matter to these guys anymore and they're operating like a criminal cartel. Scoppa's account lends itself to that idea, and maybe that was how things looked from his POV as the point man for street operations. I'd bet a Montreal member who was made in the 1990s or early 2000s would give some much deeper details on what's happened in terms of mafia politics.

[CabriniGreen]

The truth is nobody knows what their current status is.

If anything, these guys seem more like a Mexican drug cartel than a tightly-structured mafia family. The boss gets removed and the whole thing collapses into war and chaos. As opposed to the mafia where the boss simply gets replaced and business continues on as usual.

The Bonannos could still technically control Montreal, but likely don’t have the power or clout to actually do it. And the guys in Montreal may not give a fuck about following mob protocol and just care more about moving coke. They could just be operating on their own without being a new family or being part of any family. Anything is possible at this point.

Without the power and clout, they are not in control....




I said this years ago on GBB, I think I called em an "enterprise syndicate", or something. But nah, they seem to be more like the clan structure you see in Europe, there are some similarities to cartel families. Cartels
primarily move weight, but they went and formed a Co-Op like on the Wire, or the Alliance System they had on Gommora for distribution. And Vito didnt even want it, HIS guys pushed for it....


We know what the status is in Montreal. The Sicilians are in charge, in alliance with some of the most influential Hells Angel's. Whooley is out, so it's possible the Rizzutos have the gangs back in the fold. Whooley was close with Steve Sauce.

The question is which center of power, which mechanism does Montreal revolve around? Bonnanos, Sicilian mafia, or the politics of the milieu in general? That means Sicilian mafia, Anerican mafia, Ndrangheta, Hells Angel's, the Hells rivals, Hatians, Arab and Lebonese, Irish, Asian gangs.... it's easy to follow the coke, it's the only thing stitching these organizations together.... it's the common thread....you control coke.... you can interface with a lot of the underworld ......

If it were just white collar crime, maybe they never interact with these groups...

The deeper questions to me are Miriarchi, is he made? Who made him? Who is backing him as far as Ndrangheta in Ontario. Which family did he marry into? Pietro Adamo, the LaSalle boss. Is he made? Who made him? Forazzaco, is that it? Same deal. Davide Baberio.... did NY, let me back up. Did these guys names EVER appear on a list of potential Bonnano inductees? Were they ever on say, Massinos radar?I want you guys to keep the Spirito thing in mind when you think about it. How he made a bunch of guys. Think about the other guy that got made to AVOID being extorted......

The sportsbook, is interesting. It's another big clue. It seems to run as one consortium. I cant tell WHO controls it, who sets or enforces the rules, or WHAT exactly qualifies one to be able to invest in it. It seems to have mob guys and Bikers. It's one of the most centralized rackets up there. You would think this would be Bonnano exclusively, but it doesnt even seem to be MAFIA exclusive. Ndrangheta seems to dominate gambling houses, card games and such. The mafia, the sportsbook online infrastructure. I cant figure who has Platinum. Scoppa said it's worth more than the Montreal book, I thought it was started and controlled by Montreal, but apparently not. And I doubt its Buffalos either...... it might be a legacy of Galante......


After Sciascia, WHO was the official, or even unofficial liaison with NY? It HAS to be someone. The Arcuris are finished, they provided the service for Montagna, as far as introducing him to the Milieu.
Who could it be? And understand, I'm talking about someone who KNOWS these people, but also knows the NY guys.

It was signifigant that Violi had to make introductions between the NY guys and the Montreal people. There really was NO ONE in either NY OR Montreal that could do the intros? No one in NY that could have drivin up with the other guys? NO ONE in Montreal that could come down? How could that be?

Who made Valiquette? WAS he made? The young guy, Campellone. Let's say hes on track to get made. Who does it? NY? Sollecito? Do they send list to NY?

The mafia in Toronto? Is it the Caruana- Cuntreras? Ndrangheta? Scarcellas sicilian crew? Buffalo people? Hells Angels? Some combo of all of the above? Is this Toronto mafia, a separate entity from the Montreal mafia? If the Montreal mafia is a Bonnano decina, what the fuck is the Toronto mafia? A Bonnano decina we never heard of? A Buffalo decina? Do we believe that? Does that seem right? Is Toronto under Montreal? Or no?

On Arcadi..... I dont think hes mentioned because he doesnt matter. His period of leadership was a bungling mess. He hated the blacks, so he woulda never been able to get the gangs on his side. Which actually limits your leverage with the Hells. Think the narcotics Table here...Contrast this with Sollecito and Rizzuto. His guy Macri got hit and he ran to Europe, this after he threw his weight around and hit Bertolo, kicking off the war, like a fool. And then, couldnt fuckin handle the fallout.....


On Cicale..... it depends on how much you believe.
If you believe NY had control over Montreal, how is Massino clueless about how Basciano makes money in the Bronx? Does that make sense? He has Rizzuto in check, all the way in Montreal, but hes clueless about how Basciano makes money, right there in the Bronx?
He says Massino can easily reach out to Canada, to someone close to Vito, and get him hit, or get info. Yet he couldnt, wouldnt, and didnt do this with Basciano it seems.

To make it even dumber, Basciano is supplied BY the Montreal people. And to make it even DUMBER, he says Basciano did his drug stuff with Montreal on the sneak.
And to make it even DUMBER, he swears Basciano, prolific narcotics guy, couldnt move X at the height of its popularity. I dunno .....

He said Montagna was a Basciano puppet, that he didnt have strong backing in NY. That they didnt see him as qualified. Now if the NY people saw him like that, I'm clueless as to why it would be any different up there in Montreal. Montagna visited Sicily. Did the sicilians offer him a transfer? Or did they treat him like a jerkoff like Violi did the Rizzutos? Did they accept him, but under condition that he basically would be starting from scratch? Like, not a leader, but just a soldier? Castellemare Del Golfo is Domingo and Asaro. Would they appreciate some American upstart coming in? Maybe this is why he chose Canada....


I dont believe the whole Massino ordered Vito to open a club. First off, where? NY or Montreal? If Montreal, was Massino gonna go up there to make sure Vito really did it? That makes no sense. It would have been NY right? Vito coming down to NY to manage a strip club? GTFOH, lol ....Why the fuck would Massino ask for a strip club, of all things. A club that MIGHT make money. As opposed to just ASKING FOR MONEY?

And a 100k for Xmas? Montagna asked for the whole sportsbook, 25% taxes from everyone, all the contruction payoffs, 10 million in cash... I mean.... do we think hed be happy with a 100k payout, and a piece of some strip club? It sounds ridiculous to me..... Not, give me the heavy loan action, 5 points in the BOOK, put me in some contracting companies, throw some contracts my way, the weed n coke goes to Brooklyn n Queens, we gonna send some guys up there to run gambling houses, were gonna supply all the restaurants with, whatever..... I dunno......

Theres been a lot of misconceptions over the years. Hell, just recently we realize the Siderno group JUST BECAME a Siderno Crimine. Before, it was also Marina Gioiosa people and others as well.

I'm trying to figure out WHY Scoppa was paying 40k a kilo. It seems he didnt have his import capabilities anymore. Cause no one is IMPORTING kilos paying 40k. And yet.... hes talking about sending chicken from Brazil to Dubai, so that can't be right. Maybe it's the CONTACTS then. He couldnt SOURCE coke anymore, even if he had the resources to ship it. But hes described as his main fuction being supplying Montreal with coke, so its confusing. I keep things like this in mind, when I see the Violis being courted by narcotics guys, with their contacts in Colombia, and friendliness with Montreal guys....and NY Bonnanos...


A million n one questions.....

[CabriniGreen]

The truth is nobody knows what their current status is.

If anything, these guys seem more like a Mexican drug cartel than a tightly-structured mafia family. The boss gets removed and the whole thing collapses into war and chaos. As opposed to the mafia where the boss simply gets replaced and business continues on as usual.

I would say the Caruana- Cuntreras and the Ndrangheta clans are very Cartel -like. I would also day the Montreal conflict for example, has much more in common with say, the Scampia feud, or conflicts between clans in Europe, than anything in the American mafia.


Case in point; Show me another decina, regime, whatever, that was ALLOWED by its borgata to be at sustained war with itself for over ten years. Show me a other regime that could WITHSTAND, what is it now? 30, 40 plus murders? The West Side made the Colombos kiss n make up. That's a whole borgata. This is supposedly JUST a crew.........

[B.]

Montagna was close to the Castellammare leadership. His father Antonino sponsored the boss Francesco Domingo as a member in Sicily. Italy would have been tough with fewer opportunities, with Italian LE watching Montagna closely for mafia association.

Montreal is closer to NYC and had a Bonanno decina he is said to have had an existing relationship with. Makes sense why he went there. One article said he had a brother there (possibly Franco? Franco has ties to Castellammarese mafia figures) and cousins in Canada.

[motorfab]

Who made Valiquette? WAS he made?

Nope because he wasn't of Italian origin, he was a Quebecer. However The Montreal mafia always had non-Italians high up in their hierarchy and considered them as full members like Desjardins, Fernandez, Gosselin Stepanoff, Côté, Goldstein and many others. But no chance that he was made

The mafia in Toronto? Is it the Caruana- Cuntreras? Ndrangheta? Scarcellas sicilian crew? Buffalo people? Hells Angels? Some combo of all of the above? Is this Toronto mafia, a separate entity from the Montreal mafia? If the Montreal mafia is a Bonnano decina, what the fuck is the Toronto mafia? A Bonnano decina we never heard of? A Buffalo decina? Do we believe that? Does that seem right? Is Toronto under Montreal? Or no?

The Cuntrera Caruana clan most likely died in 1998 with the arrest of Alfonso, Gerlando, Pasquale and Giuseppe Caruana. The rest of the family either ended up with the Rizzutos or carried on their own business. Giuseppe "Big Joe" Cuntrera for example was doing business with Giuseppe Coluccio of Marina di Gioiosa Ionica and active in Toronto.

Which makes me think that to my knowledge the only real Crime Family in Toronto is the 'ndrina called Siderno Group (which is actually made up of several clans). So in my very humble opinion, when you read Mafia in Toronto, that's who it is, because they are the main force there.

The Scarcella crew are very small compared to them. There are also a number of Sicilian mafiosi in Toronto like Michele Vinci , Ignazio Genua or Michele Modica (in Italy now, more precisely in prison for murder) who was on feud with Scarcella precisely, but I don't think they form a real Crime Family like the Siderno Group.

For Buffalo their main territory is Hamilton/Guelph/Burlington. They were present in Toronto during the Johnny Pops days, but I don't think they are today. The Bonannos had members in Toronto (thanks B. for the info) in the 60's but no idea who they were.

Theres been a lot of misconceptions over the years. Hell, just recently we realize the Siderno group JUST BECAME a Siderno Crimine. Before, it was also Marina Gioiosa people and others as well.

I'm not sure I understood that, can you specify please ? You mean a Locale ? In Canada or in Italy ?

[stubbs]

The truth is nobody knows what their current status is.

If anything, these guys seem more like a Mexican drug cartel than a tightly-structured mafia family. The boss gets removed and the whole thing collapses into war and chaos. As opposed to the mafia where the boss simply gets replaced and business continues on as usual.

The Bonannos could still technically control Montreal, but likely don’t have the power or clout to actually do it. And the guys in Montreal may not give a fuck about following mob protocol and just care more about moving coke. They could just be operating on their own without being a new family or being part of any family. Anything is possible at this point.

Without the power and clout, they are not in control....

Great post all around! (Not going to quote the whole thing)

Control was the wrong word for me to use that way. I meant, Montreal could technically still be Bonanno territory, but in reality they probably can’t exercise any real control over the city.

Especially, given the levels of violence since 2009, I’m sure the feds on both sides are watching things extra closely, so I doubt anyone from New York could drive up there and start giving out orders (even just as a messenger for the bosses in NY). There’s probably just too much heat.