Andrew Scoppa

[Etna]

No clue. It's true the mafia of Ribera was said to be involved with the Canadian Cattolicensi in the slot machine operation, but an Agrigento mafia figure in NYC associated with the Bonanno family is also part of the same slot operation, as are other Sicilian mafia families. Haven't seen anything about Montreal falling under the authority of the Sicilian mafia, only ongoing relationships. Both of the warring factions from ~10 years ago had strong ties to the Sicilian mafia but I haven't seen anything concrete about the Sicilian mafia getting directly involved beyond what happened to Joe Bravo in Sicily.

Toronto has had important Sicilian mafia members living/staying there in the last 20 years. Not sure who is still there currently or who may have moved there over the last decade. The RCMP sergeant who supervised Project Otremens shared an infographic that identified Toronto with the 'ndrangheta, Hamilton with Buffalo, and Montreal with NYC. This isn't absolute, as there is crossover, but it seems to be how the RCMP sees these cities when it comes to mafia politics.

"Running things in Montreal on a day-to-day basis" could mean a number of things formally, informally, both, or both. A lot of Scoppa's involvement relates to a specific set of criminal operations and he's given little to nothing on how Cosa Nostra members in Montreal are organized beyond a couple vague comments from Sollecito.

Thanks for keeping this going, Chin.

None of the events with these younger guys post-Vito Rizzuto's death seems to be a traditional Cosa Nostra operation - but rather a loose collection of criminal gangs made up of italians grabbing territory and vying for power over the drug trade and the covetted sportsbook. Even when Sollecito discussed making a "family" - that just seems some confederation of guys who are now loyal to each other.

This isn't a traditional borgata that we have come to know and understand as mafia researchers.

[motorfab]

No clue. It's true the mafia of Ribera was said to be involved with the Canadian Cattolicensi in the slot machine operation, but an Agrigento mafia figure in NYC associated with the Bonanno family is also part of the same slot operation, as are other Sicilian mafia families. Haven't seen anything about Montreal falling under the authority of the Sicilian mafia, only ongoing relationships. Both of the warring factions from ~10 years ago had strong ties to the Sicilian mafia but I haven't seen anything concrete about the Sicilian mafia getting directly involved beyond what happened to Joe Bravo in Sicily.

Toronto has had important Sicilian mafia members living/staying there in the last 20 years. Not sure who is still there currently or who may have moved there over the last decade. The RCMP sergeant who supervised Project Otremens shared an infographic that identified Toronto with the 'ndrangheta, Hamilton with Buffalo, and Montreal with NYC. This isn't absolute, as there is crossover, but it seems to be how the RCMP sees these cities when it comes to mafia politics.

"Running things in Montreal on a day-to-day basis" could mean a number of things formally, informally, both, or both. A lot of Scoppa's involvement relates to a specific set of criminal operations and he's given little to nothing on how Cosa Nostra members in Montreal are organized beyond a couple vague comments from Sollecito.

Thanks for keeping this going, Chin.

None of the events with these younger guys post-Vito Rizzuto's death seems to be a traditional Cosa Nostra operation - but rather a loose collection of criminal gangs made up of italians grabbing territory and vying for power over the drug trade and the covetted sportsbook. Even when Sollecito discussed making a "family" - that just seems some confederation of guys who are now loyal to each other.

This isn't a traditional borgata that we have come to know and understand as mafia researchers.

Since it seems that Leonardo Rizzuto & Stefano Sollecito have been in regular contact with Sicily (which by the way recognizes them as a borgata), I don't see why you consider them not to be a "traditional" borgata. Whether they are or have been in the restructuring phase, of course, but they are clearly an independent family now.

As for Scoppa, it's not even sure he was a made man one day, so by "making a family" probably meant making his own faction apart from the Rizzutos (we saw what happened by the following)

Sorry but I disagree whith you on this

[chin_gigante]

To see if it adds any further clarity on the "Toronto and Italy" subject I'll include here verbatim the relevant passages from Chapter 13 both in the original French in italics and in my best attempt at a translation underneath:

Dès le printemps 2016, des sources policières dans le milieu criminel avisent l'ERM qu'Andrea Scoppa et son frère Salvatore ont pris du galon à la suite de l'incarcération des dirigeants du clan Rizzuto, en novembre 2015. «Ce sont eux les décideurs», déclare un de ces informateurs aux enquêteurs. Les frères Scoppa «ont reçu l'accord de la mafia de Toronto et [de] celle d'Italie» et «ils sont à ce jour les responsables de la mafia montréalaise», ajoute-t-il.

In the spring of 2016, police sources in the criminal milieu informed the ERM that Andrea Scoppa and his brother Salvatore had gained ground following the imprisonment of the leaders of the Rizzuto clan in November 2015. "They are the decision-makers," one of these informants told investigators. The Scoppa brothers "received the approval of the Toronto Mafia and [of] the Italian Mafia" and "they are to this day the leaders of the Montreal Mafia," he adds.

The following conversation between Andrew Scoppa (Scoppa) another individual (AI) was recorded on 15 September 2016 at 7.08pm:

Scoppa: Hey, Jew [Ovadia] s'est fait ramasser par les flics. […] Espérons seulement qu'il ne nous arrivera rien à nous, bro.
AI: J'ai bien peur que Mental [Sal Scoppa] l'ait dénoncé. Et il a sûrement parlé de toi aussi aux flics. C'est drôle, chaque fois qu'un de ses coups foire, il se passe quelque chose avec la police.
Scoppa: Tu parles des cafés qui ont brûlé…
AI: Pourquoi ils auraient arrêté Jew pour les feux?
Scoppa: Jew n’a rien à voir là-dedans. Et pourquoi ils ont associé mon nom à ces feux?
AI: Ton frère a répandu des rumeurs…
Scoppa: Oui… Bro, mon frère est allé en Italie et il a dit à tout le monde que je leur avais tout pris. Il a dit la même chose quand il est allé à Toronto. Alors que je n’ai rien fait.
AI: Ton frère veut tout avoir. Et il dit que tu lui mets des bâtons dans les roues.

Scoppa: Hey, Jew [Ovadia] got picked up by the cops. […] Let's just hope nothing happens to us, bro.
AI: I'm afraid Mental [Sal Scoppa] has denounced him. And he must have told the cops about you too. Funny, every time one of his messes happens, something happens with the police.
Scoppa: You mean the cafes that burned down...
AI: Why would they have arrested Jew for the fires?
Scoppa: Jew has nothing to do with it. And why did they associate my name with these fires?
AI: Your brother has spread rumors...
Scoppa: Yes… Bro, my brother went to Italy and he told everyone that I had taken everything from them. He said the same thing when he went to Toronto. While I didn't do anything.
AI: Your brother wants to have it all. And he says that you put a spoke in his wheels.

There seems to be extensive overlap between what underworld sources told the ERM and what Scoppa said in the car about Toronto and Italy. Based on that, I'm leaning on the side that the ERM's criminal sources could have learned about this from Salvatore Scoppa's bragging. Does anyone know where in Italy Salvatore Scoppa travelled to?

[motorfab]

Ok so indeed Sal & Andrea Scoppa were probably made thanks for that chin. But I doubt they were in charge of the Family at that time. It would have been a huge slap in the face for guys like Rocco Sollecito or Vince Spagnolo, who were old timers ...

[chin_gigante]

I think the key to this still is finding out who Sal Scoppa met with in Toronto and Italy and exactly whereabouts in Italy he went. For example, if he went to Calabria it would have extremely different connotations than, by contrast, Leonardo Rizzuto visiting Sicily. Was he meeting with Cosa Nostra figures in Sicily and Toronto or was he meeting with 'Ndrangheta members in Italy and Toronto. Scoppa saying Italy instead of specifically Sicily makes me suspect it was the mainland he went to.

By the end of May 2016 Lorenzo Giordano and Rocco Sollecito had already been killed, so talk of the Scoppas taking over could be in reference to them as an outside group rather than being part of the Rizzuto clan. That would certainly line up with the revelation from Chapter 11 where Steve Sollecito is caught on tape in 2015 talking about forming a family but excluding Scoppa. So again, it comes back to the question of who exactly is Sal Scoppa talking to? Does he tell Cosa Nostra that they have taken everything from the Rizzutos in Montreal? Or does he tell the 'Ndrangheta?

[Etna]

No clue. It's true the mafia of Ribera was said to be involved with the Canadian Cattolicensi in the slot machine operation, but an Agrigento mafia figure in NYC associated with the Bonanno family is also part of the same slot operation, as are other Sicilian mafia families. Haven't seen anything about Montreal falling under the authority of the Sicilian mafia, only ongoing relationships. Both of the warring factions from ~10 years ago had strong ties to the Sicilian mafia but I haven't seen anything concrete about the Sicilian mafia getting directly involved beyond what happened to Joe Bravo in Sicily.

Toronto has had important Sicilian mafia members living/staying there in the last 20 years. Not sure who is still there currently or who may have moved there over the last decade. The RCMP sergeant who supervised Project Otremens shared an infographic that identified Toronto with the 'ndrangheta, Hamilton with Buffalo, and Montreal with NYC. This isn't absolute, as there is crossover, but it seems to be how the RCMP sees these cities when it comes to mafia politics.

"Running things in Montreal on a day-to-day basis" could mean a number of things formally, informally, both, or both. A lot of Scoppa's involvement relates to a specific set of criminal operations and he's given little to nothing on how Cosa Nostra members in Montreal are organized beyond a couple vague comments from Sollecito.

Thanks for keeping this going, Chin.

None of the events with these younger guys post-Vito Rizzuto's death seems to be a traditional Cosa Nostra operation - but rather a loose collection of criminal gangs made up of italians grabbing territory and vying for power over the drug trade and the covetted sportsbook. Even when Sollecito discussed making a "family" - that just seems some confederation of guys who are now loyal to each other.

This isn't a traditional borgata that we have come to know and understand as mafia researchers.

Since it seems that Leonardo Rizzuto & Stefano Sollecito have been in regular contact with Sicily (which by the way recognizes them as a borgata), I don't see why you consider them not to be a "traditional" borgata. Whether they are or have been in the restructuring phase, of course, but they are clearly an independent family now.

As for Scoppa, it's not even sure he was a made man one day, so by "making a family" probably meant making his own faction apart from the Rizzutos (we saw what happened by the following)

Sorry but I disagree whith you on this

Hey I welcome the disagreement and really appreciate the discussion - even if it helps me understand it better. Below is just a few notes of how I am trying to understand it. Sorry for my confusion.

Look, I know the Mannos and Rizzutos were from Cattolica Eraclea. Domenico Manno and Nick Rizzuto Sr. were officially part of that cosca - which now, I don't think I've heard anything from that area in quite sometime. Whereas the Caruana-Cuntrera clans are obviously of Siculiana. Now, let's take this and travel across to the "New World"

Montreal, Toronto, Venezuela & New York

- We have the Montreal group operating under the Bonannos as a regime.
- They break away because of the incidents with Gelando Sciasca. So they become independent and operate there.
- The Scoppas I thought were calabrese and not sicilian - so wouldn't that also put them with the 'Ndrangheta but operating within the Montreal world? He was even on the same side of Sollecito and Rizzuto when they took out DiMaulo, Ducarme & Moreno Gallo et al. Then he switches sides because of the debt owed by Sollecito and from what we see in this thread, the two seem to despise each other.
- New York is clearly out of the picture in my opinion. So then, Leo Rizzuto travels back to Sicily not long ago in Agrigento and goes to the Verdura Resort in Sicily (beautiful place btw when I went). So, is he then brought in as an official member of the Cattolica Eraclea cosca? What about Sollecity? Where is his family from? I did not think he was from Sicily.
- Then you throw in Fernandez's garbage about him and Reyndauld being made and then he wanted to make his buddy Danny? Bullshit, yeah, but that's a lot of confidence for a non-italian to be saying something like that in Bagheria, no?
- A Venezuela Cosca also exists - so is Montreal & Venezuela one cosca? I thought all that property in Venezuela was jointly owned by some Gambinos an the Caruana-Cuntreras and even Nick Rizzuto Sr.? Is that who is now operated as that cosca?
- We don't have any official documented ceremonies with Montreal making their OWN people, with the exception of them being brought into the Bonanno family, which they are now independent from.

[chin_gigante]

Chapter 15

- The chapter begins with a brief jump forward to 24 August 2019, the first day Seguin and Thibault meet with Scoppa in Spain
- Scoppa complains that he could not work out that day because the hotel does not open its gym in the morning
- He also complains that he is ill
- Scoppa speaks to Seguin and Thibault on that first day in a hotel room for almost two hours before saying he needs a break and asking to continue the conversation on the beach
- The chapter then jumps back to the aftermath of the sting at the Tour des Canadiens
- Scoppa’s home is searched 17 November 2016, three weeks after he was arrested
- During the search, investigators find a copy of Cellule 8002 vs Mafia by Daniel Renaud, a copy of Business or Blood by Peter Edwards and Antonio Nicasio, and a copy of Le Journal de Montreal from 12 March 2016 with the front-page title L’agonie du clan Rizzuto
- They also find some cash, a small amount of cannabis, and some income statements
- In 2014, Scoppa reported $51,146 in income, and in 2015 he reported $52,256
- The chapter then includes an excerpt from a January 2017 article for La Presse by Renaud
- Renaud writes that since the end of fall 2016, several meetings have been held between Mafia figures in Montreal and Toronto to resolve the conflict that has been going on for 10 years
- These talks were being held back by a few figures in Montreal, particularly Steve Sollecito
- Sollecito is refusing to give up control of the Book
- Police have observed individuals linked to the Toronto Mafia attending meetings in Montreal
- "Influential and independent Montreal chieftain" Scoppa took part in one meeting in December
- The sword of Damocles may be over Scoppa’s head however because of his arrest
- The chapter continues with Scoppa’s arrest on 1 February 2017 stemming from the operation at the Tour des Canadiens
- Scoppa denies the cocaine seized in October belonged to him and denies any conspiracy to traffic drugs
- Scoppa denies ordering murders and says he only meets with people to settle disputes and solve problems
- Scoppa says that if people listened to him there would be peace
- He says he had no more territory; it was taken away from him
- Detectives confront Scoppa with the conversations they recorded about how Steve Sollecito owes him money
- Scoppa admits he does not like Sollecito and talks about how Rocco Sollecito did not have the leadership skills to take over as Godfather
- Steve Sollecito wanted to be the boss at all costs though he is not doing the job well
- Sollecito is no good because he pays “the bicycle guys” (the bikers?) but does not sort things out with his own men
- Scoppa wants to meet with people to sort problems but also wants to keep a low profile and does not like the hassle
- Scoppa denies having a stake in the cocaine and says recordings of him talking about drugs are lacking context
- The detectives talk to him about becoming an informant, but he says no
- Scoppa refuses to make a written statement on the advice of his lawyer
- A detective talks to Scoppa about a double homicide from September 2013 that is an ongoing investigation
- Scoppa asks whether they have DNA evidence or witnesses and adds, “Ah! You are investigating the Scoppa brothers”
- Scoppa talks about how the future does not look good for things on the street
- He does not seem happy with the possibility that Vittorio Mirarchi, Antonio Mucci, or others could become a potential leader
- He is not happy about going to prison either
- At the end of the interview, he says he knows several police officers and asks to speak to an investigator to try to come to a compromise
- Scoppa is detained without bail
- The charges against Scoppa, Valiante, and Malatesta are dropped 11 May 2018
- This was done so because Scoppa had informally provided several police officers with information for years and prosecutors did not want to open that can of worms

[OcSleeper]

Ok so indeed Sal & Andrea Scoppa were probably made thanks for that chin. But I doubt they were in charge of the Family at that time. It would have been a huge slap in the face for guys like Rocco Sollecito or Vince Spagnolo, who were old timers ...

I agree with you that guys like Sollecito, Spagnolo and even Giordano would probably be upset since they are the most senior members plus Rocco was already part of the leadership. But that passage said early spring, Giodano was killed March 1, 2016, and both Rocco (May) and Spagnolo (October) were killed right after this.

It's interesting though that both the mafia in Toronto and Italy seemed to approve Scoppa as leader. You'd think there was something that made the Rizzuto faction fall out of favour.

[OcSleeper]

- The Scoppas I thought were calabrese and not sicilian - so wouldn't that also put them with the 'Ndrangheta but operating within the Montreal world?

Being Calabrian doesn't necessarily mean you're in the Ndrangheta.

-What about Sollecity? Where is his family from? I did not think he was from Sicily.

Blood or Business says the Sollecitos are from Apulia.

[chin_gigante]

Chapter 16

- Scoppa provided information to at least five police officers
- Scoppa would give up a couple of kilos of drugs every now and then
- He hoped to become indispensable to law enforcement so they would investigate his competitors instead of him
- Scoppa did this informally until Philippe Paul put him down as an informant
- Scoppa told Seguin and Thibault that his case was dropped because of the skill of his lawyer and prosecutorial misconduct
- Scoppa admitted to speaking with certain police officers but denied being an informant
- The chapter then describes how in 2011 police officer Ian Davidson stole information relating to informants and tried to sell it to underworld figures
- Davidson tried to sell the information to Tony Mucci, providing him with four names including Scoppa’s
- Mucci tried to make a deal with prosecutors to help them with the leak in return for assistance on his weapons charges
- When the story broke Davidson committed suicide
- Scoppa explains to Seguin and Thibault the story with Philippe Paul
- Paul asked Scoppa about Mucci back when Mucci was driving around with weapons and bodyguards
- Scoppa claims he said he didn’t know anything, but Paul put his name down as an informant anyway
- Mucci had refused to buy the list of informants because he believed it was a police ruse
- Many were upset with Mucci for refusing to buy the list and would have been willing to contribute thousands of dollars to the $1 million Davidson was asking for
- The bikers were also unhappy with Mucci after this
- People in the milieu avoided Scoppa after the news broke
- Tony Suzuki came to him and told him his (Scoppa’s) name had been on the list
- Scoppa said he wanted to buy it to see who the other names were
- Other people seemed uncomfortable, as if they were worried that they were on the list too
- There were rumours that Vito Rizzuto was on the list
- No one could have been sure if the names on the list were legitimate or if the police were lying
- Scoppa speculates that perhaps the reason, so few people flip against the Italians in Montreal is because they all loved Vito
- Scoppa talks about how in the US they get guys like Massino to flip because of long prison sentences and pressure on the immediate family
- Scoppa talks negatively about guys like Sylvian Boulanger who were given immunity and paid handsomely for providing information
- Scoppa says police informants should be killed

[motorfab]

Ok so indeed Sal & Andrea Scoppa were probably made thanks for that chin. But I doubt they were in charge of the Family at that time. It would have been a huge slap in the face for guys like Rocco Sollecito or Vince Spagnolo, who were old timers ...

I agree with you that guys like Sollecito, Spagnolo and even Giordano would probably be upset since they are the most senior members plus Rocco was already part of the leadership. But that passage said early spring, Giodano was killed March 1, 2016, and both Rocco (May) and Spagnolo (October) were killed right after this.

It's interesting though that both the mafia in Toronto and Italy seemed to approve Scoppa as leader. You'd think there was something that made the Rizzuto faction fall out of favour.

Interesting, although I think Scoppa can be bragging about it. I don't know, I find it hard to buy into this. To be honest, I've had the book for several months, but I haven't had time to read it yet, so when I read it I'll make up my mind. But even with Sollecito-Spagnolo-Giordano killed, there were other senior members like Mucci or Vannelli. But maybe they were less popular in the eyes of Italians or Toronto. But here too I find it hard to believe that Scoppa is favored by the bosses of Sicily ...

Anyway, as you can see I'm pretty divided on this, so who knows.

- The Scoppas I thought were calabrese and not sicilian - so wouldn't that also put them with the 'Ndrangheta but operating within the Montreal world?

Being Calabrian doesn't necessarily mean you're in the Ndrangheta.

Definitely, and a good part of Montrealers made or presumed to be made were Calabrians

In addition, the Montreal mafia had or has quite cordial relations with the 'ndrangheta of Toronto. Nick Rizzuto was involved with Rocco Zito & Cosimo Stalteri for example

[OcSleeper]

Interesting, although I think Scoppa can be bragging about it. I don't know, I find it hard to buy into this. To be honest, I've had the book for several months, but I haven't had time to read it yet, so when I read it I'll make up my mind. But even with Sollecito-Spagnolo-Giordano killed, there were other senior members like Mucci or Vannelli. But maybe they were less popular in the eyes of Italians or Toronto. But here too I find it hard to believe that Scoppa is favored by the bosses of Sicily ...

You're right and maybe that's why Scoppa (presumably) tried killing Vanelli. June 2, 2016, Angelo D’Onofrio, who resembled Vanelli, was shot dead while sitting at a cafe. Parked outside was Tony Vanelli's SUV that he left there not an hour before.

And according to chapter 16 that was just shared Mucci had a lot of people upset with him for not buying the list of informants from the police, including the bikers.

When they say Italy I assume they mean Sicily too so I do agree I find it hard to believe Scoppa would be favoured over the Sicilians in the city. If it doesn't refer to Sicily and in fact means Calabria I think this gets a whole lot more interesting and complicated.

[motorfab]

Good point. Damn, poor guy D'Onofrio, wrong place at the wrong time, that's sad ...

[thesociety 89]

Yer its clear that the rizzuto's dont actually perform the traditional LCN ceremony, for what ever reason. Seems pretty strange that they don't though with them being a largely siggy operation.

[Etna]

Yer its clear that the rizzuto's dont actually perform the traditional LCN ceremony, for what ever reason. Seems pretty strange that they don't though with them being a largely siggy operation.

So that's where I get confused. Are they recognized by Sicily or America as a borgata or what?