Early 1985 NYC membership estimates

[B.]

Reposting this from the Salvo FBI files thread, but I found it interesting. These membership estimates were included in an early 1985 newspaper article following the arrests in the Commission case.

Genovese - 200
Gambino - 250
Lucchese - 100
Colombo - 115
Bonanno - 195

We know a few years later John Gotti would point out to Gigante that they had not filled a large number of membership slots left open by deceased members, so that could account for their relatively smaller size. In the 1960s Pussy Russo stated they had 300 members (possibly in reference to their cap, not actual living members).

When DiLeonardo flipped, he said the Gambino family maintained around 250 members with a cap of 260, so that is consistent with his info.

The Luccheses appear to have maintained a similar membership count to the Colombos throughout their history, so 100 sounds like a reasonable estimate, especially given we know they went on a mass recruitment drive in the years following this.

The Colombo family did an internal family census in 1964 when Joe Colombo took over and had 114 members, so the number 20 years later is consistent with that.

The Bonanno count appears too high. Paul Sciacca stated they had around 180 members in January 1965 and one account has them at around 200 members during that general period, plus JD mentioned a court statement that the family was "brought back to 190" under Massino (which doesn't appear to be true), so there is reason to believe the Bonannos historically may have had this many members. It's possible this total includes the Rochester figures who were for some reason included on Bonanno lists in the 1970s/80s, Canadian members, or other factors, but the Bonanno's books in NYC had been closed between 1979-1984 so it's extremely unlikely this number is at all accurate.

Still, overall this appears to be a pretty accurate snapshot of the sizes these families historically maintained.

[Shellackhead]

It’s basically the same numbers in membership in the late 00s till now, lower quality sure but still around the same amount.

[B.]

It's my belief that they have maintained fairly consistent sizes throughout most of their history, aside from periods where books were closed or someone like Gigante deliberately didn't fill slots. Of course, at some point they likely went from smaller cosca-style colony families and ballooned into these large 100-300 member groups, but since that point I believe they tend to hover around the same sizes when possible. Nobody would have expected the Bonanno family to rebound from the mass defections, but their membership size right now appears similar to what it was at Massino's peak.

We had a thread trying to catalogue all of the known murdered members, as we know families lose a slot that can't be replaced when a member is murdered, so that could account for shrinking cap sizes during the heyday of mob murders. However, the +2 rule instituted later on allowed families to induct 2 members every year without needing an open slot, so that could slowly make up for slots lost due to murder. The existence of the +2 rule also suggests the families are generally operating near their cap max -- I can't understand why they would need that new rule if they all had plenty of open slots.

[Wiseguy]

Reposting this from the Salvo FBI files thread, but I found it interesting. These membership estimates were included in an early 1985 newspaper article following the arrests in the Commission case.

Genovese - 200
Gambino - 250
Lucchese - 100
Colombo - 115
Bonanno - 195

We know a few years later John Gotti would point out to Gigante that they had not filled a large number of membership slots left open by deceased members, so that could account for their relatively smaller size. In the 1960s Pussy Russo stated they had 300 members (possibly in reference to their cap, not actual living members).

When DiLeonardo flipped, he said the Gambino family maintained around 250 members with a cap of 260, so that is consistent with his info.

The Luccheses appear to have maintained a similar membership count to the Colombos throughout their history, so 100 sounds like a reasonable estimate, especially given we know they went on a mass recruitment drive in the years following this.

The Colombo family did an internal family census in 1964 when Joe Colombo took over and had 114 members, so the number 20 years later is consistent with that.

The Bonanno count appears too high. Paul Sciacca stated they had around 180 members in January 1965 and one account has them at around 200 members during that general period, plus JD mentioned a court statement that the family was "brought back to 190" under Massino (which doesn't appear to be true), so there is reason to believe the Bonannos historically may have had this many members. It's possible this total includes the Rochester figures who were for some reason included on Bonanno lists in the 1970s/80s, Canadian members, or other factors, but the Bonanno's books in NYC had been closed between 1979-1984 so it's extremely unlikely this number is at all accurate.

Still, overall this appears to be a pretty accurate snapshot of the sizes these families historically maintained.

That 195 for the Bonannos in 1985 has always stood out like a sore thumb. Like I've said before, you can look at other reported estimates around that time and none of them were anywhere near that. I honestly think the 195 might have been a typo.

It’s basically the same numbers in membership in the late 00s till now, lower quality sure but still around the same amount.

Not exactly. 200 has been the ceiling for the Gambinos over that time period. Colombos would be closer to 100. As I said, the Bonanno figure is way off.

[thekiduknow]

The Bonanno count appears too high. Paul Sciacca stated they had around 180 members in January 1965 and one account has them at around 200 members during that general period, plus JD mentioned a court statement that the family was "brought back to 190" under Massino (which doesn't appear to be true), so there is reason to believe the Bonannos historically may have had this many members. It's possible this total includes the Rochester figures who were for some reason included on Bonanno lists in the 1970s/80s, Canadian members, or other factors, but the Bonanno's books in NYC had been closed between 1979-1984 so it's extremely unlikely this number is at all accurate.

A roster of Bonanno members from 1988 I looked at had around 106 members listed. And that's including Arizona/Rochester members Rochester and some associates, but other Sciascia I don't think any Montreal members were listed.

I also counted the amount of guys made from the 80s till the 2002 when Massino was arrested from info LCNBios and Pogo posted and I got about 80, so it seems there were lots of spots to fill, even with Vitale sneaking in a few.

This is what Massino said in his testimony:

[B.]

Elsewhere he put them at 150-160. Vitale gave a similar count. That is close to where the Bonanno family is now, based on Pogo's chart compiling confirmed members.

The 190 could be a phonetic misinterpretation or an exaggeration, but there is historic precedent for the family being 180+ so the word "back" is interesting there.

Some of the 80 confirmed inductions (there were possibly more made during that time, too) would have been replacing members who continued to die throughout the 1980s - 2000s, but it does seem they had a large number of slots to fill when Massino took over. They didn't hold any ceremonies 1979-1984, then it doesn't look like they conducted that many ceremonies in the 1980s, at least not enough to make up for all of the openings. It does appear Massino is right they went on a mass recruitment drive in the 1990s and 2000s.

[thekiduknow]

On the 2002 chart on LCNBios there are 138 confirmed members, with the original Massino/Vitale estimate as 150-160, so I think you're right it might be a type or Massino just throwing a number out there to show he basically doubled the amount of members from 1980s to the 2000s.

[B.]

Yeah, 138 confirmed in 2002, not including most of the 19 Montreal members Vitale previously met, plus likely a few unidentified members. Then they inducted 16 members in NY/NJ in 2003-2004.

Deducting the members who died between 2002-2004, they easily had 160 members at the time Massino flipped.

[B.]

On Pogo's list, I only count 5 confirmed members who died between 2002-2004. So that would leave about 133 confirmed members from the 2002 list. Adding the 16 inducted in 2003-2004, which makes for 149.

Then even if we go with a conservative number for Montreal, like ~15 remaining members of the 19, we're looking at 164+ members by the end of 2004. Depending on how many unidentified members there were in the US and Canada, we could be looking at 170+ members at the time Massino flipped.

Still not 190 members, as the testimony suggests, but that number is not as absurdly high as we might otherwise think when we review the available info.

[thekiduknow]

I wonder if Basciano was updating Massino on how many guys he was making, that could be why it’s slightly higher? I don’t remember off the top of my head if Massino mentions it in his testimony if he was approving inductions while in jail. But I could just be overthinking it.

[B.]

There were issues about specific people that came up on the tapes.

For example, Massino grilled Basciano about Ace Aiello being made because Aiello hadn't been "on record" for the eight years Massino required before someone could be inducted (a rule created in response to Pistone). Basciano tried to say something about Aiello having been associated with Baldo Amato before, but Massino felt Basciano smudged the rules.

There was also an issue with Joey Gambina being proposed, as he had a history of cocaine use and Massino took issue with Basciano wanting to use a drug user on a murder contract.

Doesn't seem Massino had any issue with inductions as long as they followed his guidelines.

[Wiseguy]

FBI figures in the 1980s -


Genovese
1980 report: 191 listed members
1983 report: 193 listed members
1987 report: 195 listed members
1988 report: 201 listed members

Gambino
1983 report: 182 listed members
1987 report: 202 listed members
1988 report: 207 listed members

Lucchese
1983 report: 102 listed members
1987 report: 113 listed members
1988 report: 117 listed members

Colombo
1980 report: 90 listed members
1983 report: 87 listed members
1987 report: 102 listed members
1988 report: 110 listed members

Bonanno
1983 report: 120 listed members
1987 report: 109 listed members
1988 report: 112 listed members

[thekiduknow]

I asked because I was curious if Massino would include the inductions done by Basciano as done under Massino, which might be why he estimated 190, but again I might be overthinking and over analyzing what might be a slip of a tongue or a typo lol.

[B.]

I asked because I was curious if Massino would include the inductions done by Basciano as done under Massino, which might be why he estimated 190, but again I might be overthinking and over analyzing what might be a slip of a tongue or a typo lol.

No, it's good to consider all posibilities, so I appreciate it.

Anyone made by Basciano would technically have been made under Massino, as he was still the boss and we know he was aware of inductions taking place which is why he split hairs about them following the proper guidelines.

190 still sounds unrealistic, but it does appear the Bonanno family had over 170 members by the end of 2004.

[Pogo The Clown]

Figures from the 25YAV hearings in 1988.


Gambino: 300 Members and 650 Associates


Genovese: 275 Members and 600 Associates


Bonanno: 100 Members and 375 Associates


Lucchese: 100 Members and 500 Associates


Colombo: 120 Members with 450 Associates