Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Newyorkempire]

Supplemental FBI Chart showing Musitano interconnections to Buffalo, NY guys. I will post the list from the FBI that shows Nicoletti on it as well

Now that you post that, I've seen that chart before. But it doesn't show what we're talking about and I think you know that.

For the record, I don't think its impossible that Musitano was made in Buffalo. In some ways it would make sense. But the questions I posted still stand.

You'll have to bear with me while I dig up that "vague" quote about Buffalo not having the organization, reach, etc. to hit someone in Canada at the time.

The conversation between Pat and Catz has already been posted on here. That alone answers your question about what you "heard" in 24 years ago from an investigator about Canada

[B.]

I'm wondering if Violi identified Pat Musitano (or anyone else) as Buffalo members during the Morena investigation. We know Violi openly discussed the Musitanos and organizational details, so you'd think he would have mentioned the Musitanos' affiliation during Morena's cooperation.

Maybe that's why the Project Otremens sergeant seemed confident Pat Musitano was a Buffalo member. When he discussed it in the presentation, he was talking about Musitano's membership in context with the Papalia hit and meeting with Rizzuto in 1997, so there wouldn't have been a reason to mention it coming up in Otremens, but I'm wondering if it provided further evidence that influenced his claim.

[Newyorkempire]

Why is Pat talking to Catz about Papalia if Buffalo has nothing to do with it?

[OcSleeper]

Can I get my questions answered

[B.]

Jonny Catz was caught on wire talking to Pat about Papalia needing to get hit. It was not assumed that they aligned with Vito after that.

This was provided by Paul Manning a couple years ago:

Hard to know the full context, but it's clear that Pat Musitano and an unidentified man are talking to a Buffalo member (Catanzaro) about someone that needs to be killed. The unidentified person is someone who is trusted in a conversation of that nature, maybe a conspirator based on this. Musitano's openness with an NY-based Buffalo member suggests the murder is not being kept secret from the Buffalo family.

The comment about the proposed victim not being able to "complain to Joe", if that's Todaro Sr., would mean he is not on good terms with the Buffalo leadership and can't petition "Joe" about the situation he's in.

Musitano's comment also suggests that the need to kill the victim is not personal nor up to Musitano, as he has a favorable opinion of him. This and his suggestion that the victim is "subjecting himself" to the situation in some way are both indications that Musitano is not responsible for ordering the murder out of self-interest alone. It appears to be a byproduct of the victim's own conduct and was ordered/approved by someone outside of Musitano.

--

I don't mention Papalia's name because it's not mentioned in this snippet, but I assume Manning had other context that indicates this was about Papalia? (i.e. it was recorded around the time of the murder or they mention more about the victim on other parts of the transcript)

If Musitano was saying the victim was looking at him like he did when he was ten-years-old, it would make sense as I believe Papalia and the Musitano families are from the same Calabrian village and Papalia would have likely known the Musitanos when they were children in Canada. Not sure if that's who/what was being said, but whoever said it seems unhappy with the way the victim was treating him, apparently like children.

[calabrianwatch]

Here’s my beef with that presentation from the Hamilton investigator Metelsky:

His information seems to be limited to Hamilton and also limited to the scope of the Violi investigation. All of his info on New York and Montreal seems to be very superficial, like B said, it’s like he read it on Wikipedia lol.

He does the typical Canadian bullshit of calling the Rizzutos “The Sixth Family”, which has never been proven that they’re even an independent family. They may be independent today, but he had no unique insight to offer up anything different on the Rizzutos other than what we already know. I expect that from authors trying to sell a book, but from law enforcement it’s disappointing.

He also made the error of claiming the Rizzutos are finished in Montreal, when their faction is obviously still in power to this day, albiet much weaker than they were 10-15 years ago.

He also acts like the Luppinos/Violis, Musitanos, and Papalias are separate mafia families, but then says they’re all under Buffalo. Which is it? Are they made members of the Buffalo family, or are they independently recognized families? This is like Mafia 101 stuff, so I’m dissapointed he offered no new insight on how things in Hamilton are structured on the street.

He mentions CeCe Luppino was killed by someone from Quebec, but he didn’t bother to connect any of the dots. Why was he killed? Do the police think the Rizzutos were behind it? Were the Rizzutos helping their allies, the Musitanos, get revenge?

He mentions the Musitanos being killed, again why were they killed? Did the Violis want them out of the way? Do the Violis have backing of one or more Calabrian groups in Toronto? Did they have a falling out with the Rizzutos, leaving them exposed on the street?

Why were the Violis made into the Buffalo family and why now? How did Dom Violi rise to underboss so fast? Was it due to his respect and influence? Is he a master at mafia diplomacy like Vito Rizzuto? Is he just a huge earner?

He also said the Violis had big plans for Montreal before they got locked up. What does that mean? Another war for cotnrol over Montreal? Are they teaming up with the Bonanno family to eventually retake Montreal back for the Bonanno family, with Buffalo’s blessing? Are those old beefs dead and they’re now working together with the remaining guys left in Montreal, and they have big plans to work together?

There was a few tidbits of good info, but so many questions left unanswered. So, I’m very hesitant to take what he said about Buffalo as gospel, given his lack of insight in so many other areas.

I haven't listened to it but on the point about the Hamilton families being separate mafia families AND under Buffalo, I have heard from a couple of sources something similar. The Hamilton families, being Calabrian and coming from a 'ndrangheta area in Calabria, started differently on their own in Hamilton, but they had to associate themselves with whoever was more powerful around them to have business. This association - it was never clear whether it amounted to being subjected to them or not essentially because they had to run with different horses depending on the moment - Luppino/Violi for example, linked more formally to Buffalo but also the Siderno GTA families, being originally 'ndrangheta. So the general working hypothesis of law enforcement (whether true or not of course that is another story) is that their relationship to buffalo was not one of subjection but one of collaboration...Indeed, Musitano was in good relation with Buffalo, so was Luppino Violi, but between the two there wasn't much good cooperation...so that means they weren't really a whole big happy group

[CabriniGreen]

So the general working hypothesis of law enforcement (whether true or not of course that is another story) is that their relationship to buffalo was not one of subjection but one of collaboration...Indeed, Musitano was in good relation with Buffalo, so was Luppino Violi, but between the two there wasn't much good cooperation...so that means they weren't really a whole big happy group

This is an interesting idea.... pretty much how I've always viewed the Montrealers as well...

[NickleCity]

I don't mention Papalia's name because it's not mentioned in this snippet, but I assume Manning had other context that indicates this was about Papalia? (i.e. it was recorded around the time of the murder or they mention more about the victim on other parts of the transcript)

MANNING: Police recorded conversation between Pat Musitano and two UK males circa 1998, just after the Paplia homicide.
I have over 2,000 docs I’ve not even looked at yet, but you’d be shocked how often #hamont officers come up as ‘subjects’

COMMENT: Is that Johnny Catz from Buffalo?

MANNING RESPONSE: What I was thinking....

COMMENT: So Buffalo was still tight with Musitanos after Pops hit?

COMMENT: I heard rumors Buffalo ordered it, but never believed it then... Always thought, and think it was reported that, it was Musitanos moving in on Buffalo’s control of area rackets since Buffalo had been greatly weakened by Local 210 going into federal trusteeship.

MANNING'S RESPONSE: Never ‘ordered’ it, but permission was given. Also have intel reports suggesting the Papalia brothers knew what was going to happen.

[stubbs]

I haven't listened to it but on the point about the Hamilton families being separate mafia families AND under Buffalo, I have heard from a couple of sources something similar. The Hamilton families, being Calabrian and coming from a 'ndrangheta area in Calabria, started differently on their own in Hamilton, but they had to associate themselves with whoever was more powerful around them to have business. This association - it was never clear whether it amounted to being subjected to them or not essentially because they had to run with different horses depending on the moment - Luppino/Violi for example, linked more formally to Buffalo but also the Siderno GTA families, being originally 'ndrangheta. So the general working hypothesis of law enforcement (whether true or not of course that is another story) is that their relationship to buffalo was not one of subjection but one of collaboration...Indeed, Musitano was in good relation with Buffalo, so was Luppino Violi, but between the two there wasn't much good cooperation...so that means they weren't really a whole big happy group

You could be right, and I was a little too hard on Metelsky in my post, as B alluded to. I need to breathe sometimes for hitting “submit”! It was a good presentation. It’s likely he knows a lot more than he mentioned and is simply unable to disclose a lot of the info publicly.

And that makes it so much more interesting (and complicated), if the Musitanos are both under the Buffalo LCN family as well as their own independent Ndrangheta family. I’m sure that gets messy in terms of loyalty, but maybe makes more sense as to why the Musitanos allied with the Sicilian Rizzuto faction, if they were already used to dealing with the Sicilian Todaros.

Can Nickle or someone in Buffalo head over to La Nova and ask Joe Jr to clear some of this shit up for us? Tell him we’re already 300+ pages deep in our Buffalo thread and we’re no closer to getting this resolved.

[Newyorkempire]

I don't mention Papalia's name because it's not mentioned in this snippet, but I assume Manning had other context that indicates this was about Papalia? (i.e. it was recorded around the time of the murder or they mention more about the victim on other parts of the transcript)

MANNING: Police recorded conversation between Pat Musitano and two UK males circa 1998, just after the Paplia homicide.
I have over 2,000 docs I’ve not even looked at yet, but you’d be shocked how often #hamont officers come up as ‘subjects’

COMMENT: Is that Johnny Catz from Buffalo?

MANNING RESPONSE: What I was thinking....

COMMENT: So Buffalo was still tight with Musitanos after Pops hit?

COMMENT: I heard rumors Buffalo ordered it, but never believed it then... Always thought, and think it was reported that, it was Musitanos moving in on Buffalo’s control of area rackets since Buffalo had been greatly weakened by Local 210 going into federal trusteeship.

MANNING'S RESPONSE: Never ‘ordered’ it, but permission was given. Also have intel reports suggesting the Papalia brothers knew what was going to happen.

Nickle, do you have that copy of the list of names that's on record with law enforcement that contained Nicoletti, Bifuclo, the Violis? and I believe Musitano was also on it. Gasparani...it was a simple list name after name, about 15 guys

[Wiseguy]

Cue backpedaling and vague insight on how it's not all connected and that you actually know what you're talking about when you "recall" an investigator saying "something" in 1997 about Canada. Give me a break

Correction.

It was was reporter Lee Coppola who said at the time that a Buffalo-sanctioned hit “is a very unlikely scenario. I don’t think there is enough organization, structure, power or authority in the Buffalo mob to have any input or sanction into a murder in Canada.”

Not surprising as he is one of those that remains dubious about recent Buffalo news.

[Newyorkempire]

Clearly Lee is confused as the Buffalo Mob had reach all the way in to Las Vegas and murder someone at the time in order to control rackets.

Can you send the link to that article that you just quoted?

[Newyorkempire]

Cue backpedaling and vague insight on how it's not all connected and that you actually know what you're talking about when you "recall" an investigator saying "something" in 1997 about Canada. Give me a break

Correction.

It was was reporter Lee Coppola who said at the time that a Buffalo-sanctioned hit “is a very unlikely scenario. I don’t think there is enough organization, structure, power or authority in the Buffalo mob to have any input or sanction into a murder in Canada.”

Not surprising as he is one of those that remains dubious about recent Buffalo news.

Lee was contradicted by Hartnett in 1998 about the actual viability about the Buffalo Mob. Stating that is a "visible and viable threat in Western New York" even after seemingly destroyed.

[antimafia]

Does anyone here have access/transcripts to the indictment of Domenico Violi? or anything related to that case beyond what I could find on canlii? I am wondering how to actually see these documents first hand

Journalists Molly Hayes, her colleague Greg McArthur, and Adrian Humphreys are the only journalists who were able to get a transcript of Domenico Violi's 2018 trial.

They had to make an in-person request at the Hamilton courthouse, and I suspect that they were able to obtain a transcript only because they are accredited members of the media. I'm still not clear whether the transcript is a part of the public record. For example, Vincenzo Morena is known to Canadians only as CW-1 because of a publication ban (in Canada, such a ban also refers to an individual's name not being published). His name very likely does not appear anywhere in the trial transcript.

Oh thanks! that is interesting...

Following up on my earlier post, I want to mention that I've confirmed that the transcript is a part of the public record. Given these COVID-19 times we live in, it may be possible to request a copy of the transcript without going in person to the courthouse in Hamilton.

One important detail I should have mentioned in the earlier post is this: a copy of the transcript costs an arm and a leg -- affordable for the journalists because their employer paid for a copy; not so much for we ordinary mobwatchers.

As to what Stephen Metelsky is permitted to say or write in public, he has to refrain from discussing certain topics and from going into details about any individuals who are informants and police agents. I received today my autographed copy of his new book, which I've quickly skimmed through. In the excerpt below, "He" refers to Todd Moore of the Peel Regional Police Service, who interviewed Vito Rizzuto when the latter landed at Lester B. Pearson International Airport, which is located west of Toronto, on October 5, 2012.

He then asked him about Pasquale "Fat Pat" Musitano and his brother Angelo, two young brothers from Hamilton, Ontario who took over the reigns of their crime family in the 1990s from their deceased father, with the support and backing of the Rizzuto crime family in Montreal.

"The kids," was how Vito referred to the two brothers. "Yes, I know the two brothers, they are just kids, just kids. I have had dinner with them when I have been in Toronto."
_______________________

The book does not say when and how many times Rizzuto had dinner with the Musitanos.

[Newyorkempire]

Does anyone here have access/transcripts to the indictment of Domenico Violi? or anything related to that case beyond what I could find on canlii? I am wondering how to actually see these documents first hand

Journalists Molly Hayes, her colleague Greg McArthur, and Adrian Humphreys are the only journalists who were able to get a transcript of Domenico Violi's 2018 trial.

They had to make an in-person request at the Hamilton courthouse, and I suspect that they were able to obtain a transcript only because they are accredited members of the media. I'm still not clear whether the transcript is a part of the public record. For example, Vincenzo Morena is known to Canadians only as CW-1 because of a publication ban (in Canada, such a ban also refers to an individual's name not being published). His name very likely does not appear anywhere in the trial transcript.

Oh thanks! that is interesting...

Following up on my earlier post, I want to mention that I've confirmed that the transcript is a part of the public record. Given these COVID-19 times we live in, it may be possible to request a copy of the transcript without going in person to the courthouse in Hamilton.

One important detail I should have mentioned in the earlier post is this: a copy of the transcript costs an arm and a leg -- affordable for the journalists because their employer paid for a copy; not so much for we ordinary mobwatchers.

As to what Stephen Metelsky is permitted to say or write in public, he has to refrain from discussing certain topics and from going into details about any individuals who are informants and police agents. I received today my autographed copy of his new book, which I've quickly skimmed through. In the excerpt below, "He" refers to Todd Moore of the Peel Regional Police Service, who interviewed Vito Rizzuto when the latter landed at Lester B. Pearson International Airport, which is located west of Toronto, on October 5, 2012.

He then asked him about Pasquale "Fat Pat" Musitano and his brother Angelo, two young brothers from Hamilton, Ontario who took over the reigns of their crime family in the 1990s from their deceased father, with the support and backing of the Rizzuto crime family in Montreal.

"The kids," was how Vito referred to the two brothers. "Yes, I know the two brothers, they are just kids, just kids. I have had dinner with them when I have been in Toronto."
_______________________

The book does not say when and how many times Rizzuto had dinner with the Musitanos.

Any more relative stuff from the book you want to share?