Sammy claims Watts an informant

[JCB1977]

It is odd that Sammy is somehow trying to disassociate himself with having flipped, but he’s always been self serving. Seems to be on an image rehabilitation tour.

Yeah he portrays himself like a stand up guy, tough mafioso. It is pathetic. He is full of shit.

In the latest video he states how Gotti helped out a friend without even knowing Gravano. Its one of the first things gotti did and the last thing Gravano did for him was fuck him over. Gravano is mentally weak. The whole thing Gravano flipped was bc Gotti talked shit about him on tape and he got upset. Unfortunatley ppl talk shit behind
Each others backs-freinds or not. The mob is not immune to this and rolling bc of it is an even worse excuse. I would of respected him more if he said look, i didnt want to go to prison for the rest of my life. We can all understand that. I mean even Liborio Bellomo was ok with Cafaro Sr being a govt cooperator and Cafaros son is still in the life and still in thr Genoveses to my knowledge.
Gravano acts like he got respect from everything and everyone. From the AB to the blacks to the bikers etc.

I totally agree with you. We all know Gotti was a blabbermouth and not the sharpest tool in the shed so maybe he was just blowing off steam. At the end of the day, John Gotti was getting life with or without Gravano cooperating. He buried himself in those tapes. Gravano cooperating gave them access to everything the family had going on and alot of the other family's too. The rackets, old homicides, you name it. They had Gotti on tape admitting to homicides and being the boss and much more. They are both very bad men, without question. But if we look at thing within the context of Mafia rules, then Sammy The Bull is without question one of the biggest turncoats of all time.Salvatore Gravano just saved his skin. Gravano is pathetic. He acts like he is always right. He portrays himself like a stand up guy, tough mafioso. But he is not. He flipped because he didn't want to go to prison for the rest of his life. That is the truth. He is lucky because IMO nowadays it would be incredibly stupid for the Gambino crime family to kill Gravano, even if he does flaunt his existence. I strongly dislike the whole Sammy celebrity shtick. I don’t think a man who ratted on all of his friends and associates is in the best position to speak on honor, toughness, prison notoriety, loyalty etc.

Neither man would get a big stamp of approval by traditionalists in the Mafia. John Gotti looked and lived like a King, something old school mafia men usually did not want to do so as not to attracted attention. Gotti reveled in his victories against the federal government but this only motivated them more to go after him and eventually to win. Gotti was a terrible boss. On the other hand, I am sure historians would say that Salvatore Gravano did more than just hurt John Gotti in his operation with the state. Gravano is trying to shift blame from himself so people won't think negatively of him; he's spinning his side of the story and doing damage control. Ultimately Salvatore Sammy the Bull Gravano became the first underboss to cooperate with the police. LCN or no, you never cooperate with the police. It's the first commandment of being a criminal. Gravano broke the rules. Maybe there is some truth in his stories about what lead him breaking the rules, but if that’s the case doesn’t give Gravano the right to turn and snitch. He should’ve killed John Gotti right there in jail, like a true man and honorable mafioso. Of course he didn’t do that and informed not only on Gotti but his whole mafia family.

Great post, lots of excellent points. If I’m not mistaken, I think Angelo Lonardo in Cleveland may have been the first underboss to turn states evidence. His testimony was used at the Commisdion trial. I believe Angelo flipped in 1983.

[B.]

If true, curious how this impacts the rumor that Frank DeCicco was an informant. Did Sclafani's paperwork name Frank DeCicco by name, or for that matter say the CI was a made member? Those details never came out publicly, only that Sclafani had a steady and reliable source of documents via his mother-in-law's court job and he produced paperwork that he felt pointed to DeCicco as a CI. It got him killed.

Joe Watts was close with DeCicco and would have had a lot of the same info... unless Sclafani's paperwork named DeCicco specifically, you have to wonder if the informant was Watts.

[Eld]

The 1993 case against James Failla, Danny Marino, Joe Watts and others is interesting. They all plead guilty and got 7 years for the Thomas Spinelli murder, except Watts who waited to 1996 to plead guilty and got 6 years. By then the charges against Watts for being part of the murders Castellano and Bilotti had been dismissed and records sealed.

[Tonyd621]

If true, curious how this impacts the rumor that Frank DeCicco was an informant. Did Sclafani's paperwork name Frank DeCicco by name, or for that matter say the CI was a made member? Those details never came out publicly, only that Sclafani had a steady and reliable source of documents via his mother-in-law's court job and he produced paperwork that he felt pointed to DeCicco as a CI. It got him killed.

Joe Watts was close with DeCicco and would have had a lot of the same info... unless Sclafani's paperwork named DeCicco specifically, you have to wonder if the informant was Watts.

Never heard of Frank Decicco even remotley becoming a rat. I dont believe that for a second.

[chin_gigante]

Never heard of Frank Decicco even remotley becoming a rat. I dont believe that for a second.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=124&p=424&hilit=decicco#p424

A thread worth looking at

[Tonyd621]

Never heard of Frank Decicco even remotley becoming a rat. I dont believe that for a second.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=124&p=424&hilit=decicco#p424

A thread worth looking at

I thought all that info you posted was about Neil Delacroce being an informant... i remember reading this Time magazine article back when it was reputable... maybe it was Frank instead.

http://content.time.com/time/subscriber ... 15,00.html

Your thesis is compelling and convincing.
I dont know what to believe regarding this situation. I really dont. Personally, i would lean towards Neil being CI. But, its possibly they both were? And they both gave the same intel. Its too ambigious.
The research can be rock solid like the case we have here and still have more questions then answers.

[Amershire_Ed]

Bruce Mouw’s team credits an informant with the Gambinos that told them that Gotti was doing all of his talking in an apartment above the Ravenite instead of in the actual club. And that’s what prompted them to change the location of their bug. Has it ever been disclosed who gave the Feds that info? Could that have been Watts?

[bronx]

eld can you post the rest of the papers

[bronx]

great stuff

[Tonyd621]

Bruce Mouw’s team credits an informant with the Gambinos that told them that Gotti was doing all of his talking in an apartment above the Ravenite instead of in the actual club. And that’s what prompted them to change the location of their bug. Has it ever been disclosed who gave the Feds that info? Could that have been Watts?

I remember reading i think it was Howard Blums book(Gangland How the FBI Broke the Mob) it was some lady who was sleeping with the bar tender at the ravenite gave up the intel.

[Extortion]

In court, Watts admitted to helping dispose of a body. Gotti sr would whack him over that but that was after he died. Its def possible he was a CI ... Admitting to help dispose of a body...I mean cmon...hes supposed to be old school

[Extortion]

It seems weird he claimed the AB basically extorted Gotti when Gotti is credited with being a major influence on the AB

Well, supposedly Gotti was paying them to watch his back. Sort of how Nicky Scarfo did with the Mexicans when he was in prison. Nobody approached Gotti and said, "You're going to pay us X amount every month." According to court testimony of an AB guy, Gotti was supposed to find an attorney for AB leader Barry Mills. For whatever reason, Gotti didn't follow through with this and Mills ordered the AB to withdraw their protection. This was in 1994.

But it wasn't until 1996 that Gotti was attacked by Johnson. Would Johnson have attacked Gotti if he knew the AB was still protecting him? Maybe, maybe not. Gotti then offered to pay the AB to kill Johnson, which they supposedly accepted. But they didn't seem to be in too much of a hurry because Johnson was paroled in 2001 and ended up killing a cop a short time later. It seems to me Johnson was simply a nut who would have attacked anyone, no matter who they were or who's protection they were under.

How do you know this? Source?

[Extortion]

It is odd that Sammy is somehow trying to disassociate himself with having flipped, but he’s always been self serving. Seems to be on an image rehabilitation tour.

Yeah he portrays himself like a stand up guy, tough mafioso. It is pathetic. He is full of shit.

Sammy is a tough guy. You dont know what you are talking about...he was an underboss, capo and consigliere in the gambino family. One of the five families, you have to be tough to have that position. He does appear he has lied very seldomly but nothing outrageous. Before he cooperated he had a lot of respect in the life and otherwise..

[Extortion]

It is odd that Sammy is somehow trying to disassociate himself with having flipped, but he’s always been self serving. Seems to be on an image rehabilitation tour.

Yeah he portrays himself like a stand up guy, tough mafioso. It is pathetic. He is full of shit.

In the latest video he states how Gotti helped out a friend without even knowing Gravano. Its one of the first things gotti did and the last thing Gravano did for him was fuck him over. Gravano is mentally weak. The whole thing Gravano flipped was bc Gotti talked shit about him on tape and he got upset. Unfortunatley ppl talk shit behind
Each others backs-freinds or not. The mob is not immune to this and rolling bc of it is an even worse excuse. I would of respected him more if he said look, i didnt want to go to prison for the rest of my life. We can all understand that. I mean even Liborio Bellomo was ok with Cafaro Sr being a govt cooperator and Cafaros son is still in the life and still in thr Genoveses to my knowledge.
Gravano acts like he got respect from everything and everyone. From the AB to the blacks to the bikers etc.

Really guys? Yes, Sammy does make it seem like he was respected by everyone which HE WAS before he cooperated. He was the underboss...same position Dellacroce had...you guys are a little too critical...he def seems to have embellish things a few times but who really cares? This is what he does to tell stories and the most part they are true and interesting. Sammy is not mentally weak...he survived ADX and 22 years in the pen, was in the army and the mafia for decades...Youve never met any of these people why the harsh judgement? Yes he is a rat but were not in the life so why does it matter so fucking much that he turned on Gotti who was throwing him under the bus

[Extortion]

If true, curious how this impacts the rumor that Frank DeCicco was an informant. Did Sclafani's paperwork name Frank DeCicco by name, or for that matter say the CI was a made member? Those details never came out publicly, only that Sclafani had a steady and reliable source of documents via his mother-in-law's court job and he produced paperwork that he felt pointed to DeCicco as a CI. It got him killed.

Joe Watts was close with DeCicco and would have had a lot of the same info... unless Sclafani's paperwork named DeCicco specifically, you have to wonder if the informant was Watts.

Never heard of Frank Decicco even remotley becoming a rat. I dont believe that for a second.

No way deciccio was a rat. His whole entire family was in the life.