Cotroni Luppino

[johnny_scootch]

Cotroni and Luppino both Calabrian/Canadian both also worked under American Cosa Nostra families but my question is were these guys actually Ndrangheta members?? I see both called Ndrangheta bosses and at the same time members of the Maggadino and Bonanno families. Slightly confused as to what these guys actually were. Any info is appreciated.

[Lupara]

Luppino was a member of the 'ndrangheta who headed his own family in Hamilton that fell under the aegis of the Buffalo family. And that's because back then Ontario was Buffalo's backyard.

Cotroni was a member of the American Cosa Nostra, namely the Bonanno family. I've seen no evidence of him being a member of the 'ndrangheta. However, his protege, Paoli Violi, was definitely connected to the 'ndrangheta through his own family and his father-in-law, Giacomo Luppino. However, just as his mentor, Violi was a member of the American Cosa Nostra. He did not seem to have had ongoing ties to Calabria himself.

[johnny_scootch]

Thank you for the info. So Luppino was not a member of the Buffalo family?

Violis father in law was a Ndrangheta boss yet he went to Sicily and asked a boss if there were any men of honor in Calabria? Crazy seems like he didn't understand the situation in Italy.

[Lupara]

Exactly. It seems his knowledge on the 'ndrangheta was suprisingly slim, considering his background. If he was ever inducted by his father or father-in-law, he should have known that there were no Calabrian members of the Sicilian Mafia, because the two were separate societies.

As I understand, Luppino was not an actual member of the Buffalo family because he was a 'ndrangheta member. You cannot have dual memberships. However, given how things were set up in Canada back then, he was subservient to the Buffalo family. What is a little bit confusing though is that Buffalo already had its own representatives in Ontario, namely John Volpe in Toronto and John Papalia in Hamilton, yet it is claimed that Luppino was Magaddino's representative in Southern Ontario. Seems like Magaddino needed a lot of reps..

[toto]

There were Calabrese in Cosa Nostra: Antonio Macri is one example mentioned by Buscetta. This was until about 1980s. After that it doesn't matter because they recognize each other as the same.

[Lupara]

I thought you didn't believe in dual memberships when were discussing Nick Rizzuto's status in the Bonannos.

Anyway when Paolo Violi went to Sicily to ask this question he was told there weren't any Calabrian members in Sicily. I still think it is rubbish, no matter what Buscetta has claimed. His word isn't gospel.

[toto]

I thought you didn't believe in dual memberships when were discussing Nick Rizzuto's status in the Bonannos.

Anyway when Paolo Violi went to Sicily to ask this question he was told there weren't any Calabrian members in Sicily. I still think it is rubbish, no matter what Buscetta has claimed. His word isn't gospel.

Unfortunately for you Buscetta's word is gospel as confirmed in many criminal trials. The guy who was sitting with bosses from both sides of Atlantic and known as "boss of two worlds" knows less than you according to you.

It doesn't matter which evidence I bring for you because you will always find a reason to reject it. In fact, there are plenty of others like Leonardo Messina who said directly in 1992 every one of the bosses of 'Ndrangheta and Camorra are members of Cosa Nostra. Anyway, it seems you don't know the full context of what Buscetta said and in that context it makes a perfect sense.

So which is the evidence for dual membership of Nicolo Rizzuto? Other than your opinion.

Anyway, I asked the question and you never answer it: which boss is going to be so nice to say you go and make money and share with another boss? Because this is what dual membership means! Besides which I am talking a boss like Antonio Macri and you want to compare him to Nicolo Rizzuto who according to you was a soldier in one family and a soldier in another family at the same time. Also the time I talk about is where 'Ndrangheta didn't really exist - the word 'Ndrangheta not used until about a 1955 according to a government report in Italy and only after about 1969 was a more formal structure established.

Anyway, it's correct there were know Calabrese members in Sicily.

[Lupara]

You should stop making ridiculous assumptions and putting words into my mouth. I did not say that I know more than Buscetta nor did I say to you that Nick Rizzuto had dual membership. I think that he was inducted into the Sicilian Mafia by his father-in-law and later transfered to the Bonannos. Perhaps you have difficulties with comprehending the English language which made you interpret my words the way you did.

So according to Buscetta Antonio Macri was inducted into the Sicillian Mafia? That means that he had to answer to a Sicillian boss, which contradicts your own opinion.

[toto]

You should stop making ridiculous assumptions and putting words into my mouth. I did not say that I know more than Buscetta nor did I say to you that Nick Rizzuto had dual membership. I think that he was inducted into the Sicilian Mafia by his father-in-law and later transfered to the Bonannos. Perhaps you have difficulties with comprehending the English language which made you interpret my words the way you did.

So according to Buscetta Antonio Macri was inducted into the Sicillian Mafia? That means that he had to answer to a Sicillian boss, which contradicts your own opinion.

I didn't make any assumption. That's your way. You said Buscetta is not a gospel and talking rubbish and this because he contradicted your opinion which is based on nothing but fantasy and imagination. So I didn't need to put any words in your mouth. You rejected a statement of Buscetta because it contradicted your fantasy. I notice once again you decided not to answer my simple question: which boss is so nice to share his soldier with another boss?

As for the rest about contradictions I guess you didn't read my previous post. Especially the part where I mentioned there was no 'Ndrangheta until about 1955 and really not in a modern sense until after 1969.

[Lupara]

There is no purpose to answer a question that is based on your misinterpretation of my words. And you failed to answer mine: if Antonio Macri was inducted into Cosa Nostra, into what family was he inducted and to which boss did he answer? Especially since there was no 'ndrangheta according to you.

[Angelo Santino]

Guys, this is a very gray area. We don't know the full story.

There are examples of people who have been members of both groups, it is rare. And I can't even begin to get it whether it was simply "ok, you're in" or someone had to go through a new formal ceremony. I think it's the latter but in time more info can come out.

Here's the thing: Canada has had a major Italian OC presence since the 1900's, more specifically 1900 - 1960 before Joe Bonanno made things even more confusing. I don't have the information on the decreases/increases of Italo immigration during that period but it seems to coincide with the USA-Italians who before 1930 (political reforms) traversed between Italy and America like El Pasoans into Mexico and back. After 1930 it didn't just cut off, but it grew more significantly limited or restricted. OC communication between both continents didn't depend on the boss, he was one rain drop in a storm. I bring this up because the Luppinos in Canada or at least the group they were apart of go pretty far back. Did they lose their Italian ties and become an Canadian rendition in time or were they always in contact with Italy the same way we see Australia connected to Italy? We don't know. We can guess and argue it but that's it.

And with Joe Bonanno, remember back in the 60's, The Five Families were going strong. The Mafia in America's power, ability to organize and make money was very significant and respected in Italy. Being "with" the Bonannos meant alot more than it does currently.

[toto]

There is no purpose to answer a question that is based on your misinterpretation of my words. And you failed to answer mine: if Antonio Macri was inducted into Cosa Nostra, into what family was he inducted and to which boss did he answer? Especially since there was no 'ndrangheta according to you.

Not according to me. According to Italian government report which mentioned the word was never used until at least 1955. I mentioned this in my post.But as usual you ignored it.

[Laurentian]

There is no purpose to answer a question that is based on your misinterpretation of my words. And you failed to answer mine: if Antonio Macri was inducted into Cosa Nostra, into what family was he inducted and to which boss did he answer? Especially since there was no 'ndrangheta according to you.

Not according to me. According to Italian government report which mentioned the word was never used until at least 1955. I mentioned this in my post.But as usual you ignored it.

It would be much appreciated from all posters here if you could provide a reference to that government report you have been quoting from. Thanks.

[Angelo Santino]

The Calabria Mafia - we'll call it that, goes back pretty early, at least 1830. This was spread out mostly in Reggio, then Catanzaro, then Crotone and Vibo Valentia on a smaller level. This isn't the thread for such a topic (and I try and be cautious about hijacking threads about modern stuff) but in Reggio there was/is more of a Greek influence: language and pronounciation, that's alien to Catanzaro which has a more Albanian influence and some names have J in them. Catanzaresi wouldn't start calling themselves 'ndranghetisti, that's Greek to them, literally. They can still be part of the same Calabrian Mafia conglamorate that makes up the wide network.

All the Mafias of Italy really had a hard time naming themselves, each area and sometimes cities in those same areas had different names. You see it in Sicily (Fratallanza, Fratuzzi, etc) and in Calabria (Mondalbano, Picciotteria) and so on. "Cosa Nostra" didn't become popular until after Valachi used it. That term was used in NY but it was alien in other places. 20 years later it's all "La Cosa Nostra" to the point where in the 80's you had contemporary members calling their criminal network that as an official term. Gotti's one example.

I'll end with this: wars between the different mafias are the exception rather than the norm. They are brothers so the speak.

[toto]

No doubt there was a mafia in Calabria before 1950s. There is no dispute about this. But it was a different thing than 'Ndrangheta phenomenon which is a combination of Cosa Nostra and the legacy of that previous mafia. That previous mafia was not considered to be anything serious by Cosa Nostra and it was not considered to be serious by Calabrese elements in Cosa Nostra in America. Otherwise, Anastasia and Giuseppe Ida would have gone direct and tried to increase the strength of that mafia instead of asking Lucky Luciano to approach Palermo and request they make some guys from Calabria as mentioned by Buscetta. This happened in about 1956.

It is the same for Camorra the modern day one has almost nothing to do with the one from 100 years ago. It is a creation of Cosa Nostra as well as local elements and especially Raffaele Cutolo who also had a tremendous influence on the 'Ndrangheta phenomenon. It's why today they are separate but they recognize each other as the same.

About the report, I will post it if I find it. It's in my old hard drive. Nevertheless it is a widespread opinion among the researchers of organized crime that the term 'Ndrangheta was first used in an article in 1955 by Corrado Alvaro a poet from San Luca writing in Corriere della Sera.