New York/USA vs. Palermo/Sicily

[Etna]

Okay folks, so I'm trying to make sure I have this down appropriately.

In the United States you've got 5 families in New York and the New Jersey family to some extent that seem to operate throughout the city. While they have natural paths and general areas they are more prevalent in, the families don't have a specific district or neighborhood they are landlocked to.

In Palermo, the families are designated to a specific village or a neighborhood - Tomasso Natale, San Lorenzo, Acquasanta, Resuttana etc. to which they control. If I understand, they collect pizzo from those areas.

1. One thing I am curious about, is, do the Palermo families every operate outside of their territory in other parts of the city?

2. If for instance a smaller family of of its members are wiped out, does another family ever move into those territories to take over? Do they respect another family's territory? I only ask this as it seems like the families of Sicily are much smaller than those in New York and while we do say they have the formal structure - the media never seems to detail who is who and holds which ranks in each family unless they are the boss or some regent.

3. Sports Betting shops seem to be coming under more Mafia control in Sicily. Is sports betting illegal in Italy? Or is it that they are used to launder money? What's the significance and when they are constantly seized by the authorities?

[Wiseguy]

As you said, it seems the Palermo clans are very geographically based. At least in terms of territory considered theirs, where they extort local businesses, etc. But they also often have mutual interests in things like public construction projects, drug trafficking, etc. and that may cross boundaries.

You're right about the smaller relative size. You have 5 families in NYC. There are over 30 families in Palermo City alone. Another 50 in the rest of Palermo Province. Clan sizes will vary but, from what I can tell, you're maybe looking at 25 members on average.

And you're right, whenever there is a bust, we never hear about underbosses, capos, etc. Usually just the top guy or two identified and everyone else lumped in. It's the same with the other Italian OC groups as well. Maybe they go into more detail in the court documents but I don't read Italian so I wouldn't know.

Traditionally gambling has never been as central to the Italy side as the American side. But it's definitely picked up over there over the last decade or so. Camorra clans are big into slots/video poker. All of them have formed partnerships with online betting websites.

[CabriniGreen]

Okay folks, so I'm trying to make sure I have this down appropriately.

In the United States you've got 5 families in New York and the New Jersey family to some extent that seem to operate throughout the city. While they have natural paths and general areas they are more prevalent in, the families don't have a specific district or neighborhood they are landlocked to.

In Palermo, the families are designated to a specific village or a neighborhood - Tomasso Natale, San Lorenzo, Acquasanta, Resuttana etc. to which they control. If I understand, they collect pizzo from those areas.

1. One thing I am curious about, is, do the Palermo families every operate outside of their territory in other parts of the city?

2. If for instance a smaller family of of its members are wiped out, does another family ever move into those territories to take over? Do they respect another family's territory? I only ask this as it seems like the families of Sicily are much smaller than those in New York and while we do say they have the formal structure - the media never seems to detail who is who and holds which ranks in each family unless they are the boss or some regent.

3. Sports Betting shops seem to be coming under more Mafia control in Sicily. Is sports betting illegal in Italy? Or is it that they are used to launder money? What's the significance and when they are constantly seized by the authorities?

On point number 3...

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6637

[CabriniGreen]

Okay folks, so I'm trying to make sure I have this down appropriately.

In the United States you've got 5 families in New York and the New Jersey family to some extent that seem to operate throughout the city. While they have natural paths and general areas they are more prevalent in, the families don't have a specific district or neighborhood they are landlocked to.

In Palermo, the families are designated to a specific village or a neighborhood - Tomasso Natale, San Lorenzo, Acquasanta, Resuttana etc. to which they control. If I understand, they collect pizzo from those areas.

1. One thing I am curious about, is, do the Palermo families every operate outside of their territory in other parts of the city?

2. If for instance a smaller family of of its members are wiped out, does another family ever move into those territories to take over? Do they respect another family's territory? I only ask this as it seems like the families of Sicily are much smaller than those in New York and while we do say they have the formal structure - the media never seems to detail who is who and holds which ranks in each family unless they are the boss or some regent.

3. Sports Betting shops seem to be coming under more Mafia control in Sicily. Is sports betting illegal in Italy? Or is it that they are used to launder money? What's the significance and when they are constantly seized by the authorities?

On point number 3...

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6637

Fluid Organizations
According to Italian prosecutors, the various mafia syndicates of southern Italy had become unified “fluid organizations” that, between them, managed a vast network of businesses, including online gambling operations like Centurionbet. This allowed them to recycle vast sums of money from each other’s enterprises.

[Angelo Santino]

Okay folks, so I'm trying to make sure I have this down appropriately.

In the United States you've got 5 families in New York and the New Jersey family to some extent that seem to operate throughout the city. While they have natural paths and general areas they are more prevalent in, the families don't have a specific district or neighborhood they are landlocked to.

In Palermo, the families are designated to a specific village or a neighborhood - Tomasso Natale, San Lorenzo, Acquasanta, Resuttana etc. to which they control. If I understand, they collect pizzo from those areas.

1. One thing I am curious about, is, do the Palermo families every operate outside of their territory in other parts of the city?

2. If for instance a smaller family of of its members are wiped out, does another family ever move into those territories to take over? Do they respect another family's territory? I only ask this as it seems like the families of Sicily are much smaller than those in New York and while we do say they have the formal structure - the media never seems to detail who is who and holds which ranks in each family unless they are the boss or some regent.

3. Sports Betting shops seem to be coming under more Mafia control in Sicily. Is sports betting illegal in Italy? Or is it that they are used to launder money? What's the significance and when they are constantly seized by the authorities?

1 Yes, they always have. Even in the 1890's members of one group would move to other parts of the city. It's very similar to NY in that regard.

2 In 1910, the Palermo families split into smaller groups, sometimes going 2, 3, 4 different ways. It was amicable. But with the mandamento system they more or less reconstituted back along those same lines half a century later.

3 Legal.

Another interesting correlation between the US and Sicily is that while most of the membership is concentrated in NYC and Palermo, those two cities' groups hold the smallest amount of territory. Outside of those cities you'll find Families with smaller numbers controlling larger territories. The Corleone family extended into other cities while 'Pittsburgh' extended across the western state of PA into eastern OH and northern WV.

[scagghiuni]

1 Yes, they always have. Even in the 1890's members of one group would move to other parts of the city. It's very similar to NY in that regard.

the territory in palermo/sicily is much more defined however

[Etna]

1 Yes, they always have. Even in the 1890's members of one group would move to other parts of the city. It's very similar to NY in that regard.

the territory in palermo/sicily is much more defined however

So is it feasible for the Pagliarelli family to take over the territory belonging to the Brancaccio family? I think we see this more often in Napoli with the Camorra clans, no? But not necessarily in Cosa Nostra because of how defined they are.

[scagghiuni]

1 Yes, they always have. Even in the 1890's members of one group would move to other parts of the city. It's very similar to NY in that regard.

the territory in palermo/sicily is much more defined however

So is it feasible for the Pagliarelli family to take over the territory belonging to the Brancaccio family? I think we see this more often in Napoli with the Camorra clans, no? But not necessarily in Cosa Nostra because of how defined they are.

i mean it's vey difficult that a family in palermo takes over another territory without the approvation of the commission,
this is why I said that the territories are more defined, outlined. It's almost impossibile, for example, porta nuova family ask protection from a shopkeeper based in pagliarelli, i bet more easier the colombo ask protection from a shopkeeper based in bensonhurst where there are other 3 families

[Etna]

1 Yes, they always have. Even in the 1890's members of one group would move to other parts of the city. It's very similar to NY in that regard.

the territory in palermo/sicily is much more defined however

So is it feasible for the Pagliarelli family to take over the territory belonging to the Brancaccio family? I think we see this more often in Napoli with the Camorra clans, no? But not necessarily in Cosa Nostra because of how defined they are.

i mean it's vey difficult that a family in palermo takes over another territory without the approvation of the commission,
this is why I said that the territories are more defined, outlined. It's almost impossibile, for example, porta nuova family ask protection from a shopkeeper based in pagliarelli, i bet more easier the colombo ask protection from a shopkeeper based in bensonhurst where there are other 3 families

I would agree with that. I don't think the New York families have that rigid territory drawn out.