Franzese discusses made date

[mafiastudent]

Why does he have to lie about everything

A lie is a deliberate action to deceive. He's been consistent with a date of Halloween 1975, so he appears to sincerely believe it. If he's wrong, then he's just mistaken.

If you read joe Massinos testimony he said books were opened in 75 which goes with what franzese said

He testified before the senate in those boxing hearings that he was made on Halloween night in 1975.

[B.]

The decision to open the books was made in 1975 and the first wave of inductions happened in January 1976. Franzese and Cafaro say new members were getting in by 1974 or 1975, but Franzese's Halloween 1975 date has been disproven and someone found out that a restaurant Cafaro referenced in his 1974 induction wasn't opened until 1976. There are others but need to dig into them more.

One reason guys get their date of induction wrong is because it's not an event you write on the calendar and people don't remind you about it with an anniversary card every year. These guys were living and hanging out in the same neighborhoods every day like the movie Groundhog Day. One day they get told to be ready, they get made, and it's back to Groundhog Day. I can see someone mixing it up unless a guy makes it a point to remember the exact date.

People have an easy time remembering ceremonies that happened on certain dates. Bonannos and Colombos both did Halloween ceremonies which the witnesses remembered. Gambinos did Christmas Eve. Some guys have an easier time remembering the date of a ceremony because it coincided with a birthday or other event in their lives. Sometimes even proximity to a murder helps figure out when someone was made.

I'm in my mid-30s and I wouldn't be able to tell you if a certain event happened in 2012 or 2014. Maybe I can figure it out based on who my girlfriend was at the time or a major life event that happened, but if I'm just working and going about life I'm not going to be able to tell you the exact date or year something happened. And that's 6-8 years ago, not decades. If someone corrected me on a year with decent evidence, I'd go with them. The difference with me is it hasn't been published in books, said in speaking gigs, videos, etc.

If Franzese admits he's wrong, he has to do a bunch of revisionism and can't change the published material that's already out there anyway. I understand why he wouldn't want to go there over such a small detail. It doesn't add much to his story, as being made at any point in the 1970s is impressive for a young guy, and it's not an obvious reason to lie. He might know the truth now but the 1975 date is part of his story he's told countless times and he might feel it undermines his credibility to admit he couldn't get his own induction date. The people like us who care about the 1978 date are the minority of his audience.

Forgetting your induction date in the mafia is like erectile dysfunction... "It happens to everyone. Don't worry about it."

[mafiastudent]

The decision to open the books was made in 1975 and the first wave of inductions happened in January 1976. Franzese and Cafaro say new members were getting in by 1974 or 1975, but Franzese's Halloween 1975 date has been disproven and someone found out that a restaurant Cafaro referenced in his 1974 induction wasn't opened until 1976. There are others but need to dig into them more.

One reason guys get their date of induction wrong is because it's not an event you write on the calendar and people don't remind you about it with an anniversary card every year. These guys were living and hanging out in the same neighborhoods every day like the movie Groundhog Day. One day they get told to be ready, they get made, and it's back to Groundhog Day. I can see someone mixing it up unless a guy makes it a point to remember the exact date.

People have an easy time remembering ceremonies that happened on certain dates. Bonannos and Colombos both did Halloween ceremonies which the witnesses remembered. Gambinos did Christmas Eve. Some guys have an easier time remembering the date of a ceremony because it coincided with a birthday or other event in their lives. Sometimes even proximity to a murder helps figure out when someone was made.

I'm in my mid-30s and I wouldn't be able to tell you if a certain event happened in 2012 or 2014. Maybe I can figure it out based on who my girlfriend was at the time or a major life event that happened, but if I'm just working and going about life I'm not going to be able to tell you the exact date or year something happened. And that's 6-8 years ago, not decades. If someone corrected me on a year with decent evidence, I'd go with them. The difference with me is it hasn't been published in books, said in speaking gigs, videos, etc.

If Franzese admits he's wrong, he has to do a bunch of revisionism and can't change the published material that's already out there anyway. I understand why he wouldn't want to go there over such a small detail. It doesn't add much to his story, as being made at any point in the 1970s is impressive for a young guy, and it's not an obvious reason to lie. He might know the truth now but the 1975 date is part of his story he's told countless times and he might feel it undermines his credibility to admit he couldn't get his own induction date. The people like us who care about the 1978 date are the minority of his audience.

Forgetting your induction date in the mafia is like erectile dysfunction... "It happens to everyone. Don't worry about it."

So Franzese committed perjury at the Senate hearings? In this video of the Senate Boxing Hearings....he tells whatever Senator is asking the questions that he was inducted on Halloween Night 1975...it's at the 17:17:07 mark https://commerce.veritone.com/search/asset/33042348

[mafiastudent]

Tape number in case you can't access the video from that link

CBS-W234537

[B.]

He's always said 1975. I don't think he deliberately lied. Being made three years earlier doesn't add much to his story, so it's not egregious, it's just the kind of detail people like us care about.

The only problem is he won't acknowledge the mistake despite evidence. I understand why admitting the mistake might be a bigger headache than it's worth to him. Out of all the nonsense some of these guys say, this is not worth judging him over. We just have to use the correct date (1978) for our own records and let it go.

It would speak to his character if he admitted it, but Michael Franzese is a product. He's not just an ex-wiseguy who does interviews and talks about the life like other guys, he's a highly-rehearsed slick professional. He has his act down and I don't think he wants to change the script in any way.

And I say that last part not as an insult. He doesn't strike me as a bad guy, honestly, but he has put a lot of finesse on his act and it's taken him far. If something is working for you and only the nerds at the Black Hand care about some minor footnote, your gig is going well for you.

Someone like Ralph Natale couldn't do what Franzese does even though Natale was legitimately a boss. If you put Natale on stage, it's like a goblin being released from a cage. That thing would be up there spewing toxic lies between its missing teeth... hearing Natale talk about Carlo Gambino and Angelo Bruno induct him in a secret ceremony would make you wish for the days that slick Mike Franzese was up there saying he was made on Halloween 75 not 78.

[chin_gigante]

Gravano also said it was decided to open the books in 75 but no one got in till 76

[Cheech]

Tape number in case you can't access the video from that link

CBS-W234537

Thanks for sharing but we both know that wasn’t perjury

[mafiastudent]

Tape number in case you can't access the video from that link

CBS-W234537

Thanks for sharing but we both know that wasn’t perjury

I asked a legitimate question. That's not allowed?

[Cheech]

Tape number in case you can't access the video from that link

CBS-W234537

Thanks for sharing but we both know that wasn’t perjury

I asked a legitimate question. That's not allowed?

I didnt realize it was a question. pardon me

[Antiliar]

He's always said 1975. I don't think he deliberately lied. Being made three years earlier doesn't add much to his story, so it's not egregious, it's just the kind of detail people like us care about.

The only problem is he won't acknowledge the mistake despite evidence. I understand why admitting the mistake might be a bigger headache than it's worth to him. Out of all the nonsense some of these guys say, this is not worth judging him over. We just have to use the correct date (1978) for our own records and let it go.

It would speak to his character if he admitted it, but Michael Franzese is a product. He's not just an ex-wiseguy who does interviews and talks about the life like other guys, he's a highly-rehearsed slick professional. He has his act down and I don't think he wants to change the script in any way.

And I say that last part not as an insult. He doesn't strike me as a bad guy, honestly, but he has put a lot of finesse on his act and it's taken him far. If something is working for you and only the nerds at the Black Hand care about some minor footnote, your gig is going well for you.

Someone like Ralph Natale couldn't do what Franzese does even though Natale was legitimately a boss. If you put Natale on stage, it's like a goblin being released from a cage. That thing would be up there spewing toxic lies between its missing teeth... hearing Natale talk about Carlo Gambino and Angelo Bruno induct him in a secret ceremony would make you wish for the days that slick Mike Franzese was up there saying he was made on Halloween 75 not 78.

I don't know, B. A three-year discrepancy seems pretty significant. As you wrote, people are more likely to remember dates when they coincide with a holiday or major event. October 24th would be more difficult to remember than Halloween. The evidence for the 1978 year, as I understand it, is the testimony of another informant. Regarding Gravano's statement, perhaps his information that they didn't make anyone in 1976 applies to the Gambinos, but the Colombos may have had some late 1975 ceremonies (maybe this question will get ironed out when they interview each other). At any rate, I think it's premature to say this is set in stone.

[Pogo The Clown]

JD breaks this down below. Also in addition to what he lays out I believe someone also said that one of the guys Franzese says he was inducted with was in prison in 1975.

In a 1989 interview with the FBI, Franzese described his induction as having occurred in 1975. This date is repeated in Franzese's books Quitting the Mob and Blood Covenant, published in 1992 and 2002 respectively.

CW Salvatore Miciotta later advised the ceremony took place on the Halloween following Americus Scotese's murder in March 1978.

The date provided by Miciotta more closely aligns with contemporary reports from informants, all of whom agree that early 1976 is when inductions resumed. Sources included made members in at least two of the New York Families.

Details from the Franzese books also support Miciotta:

1. The books state that at the time of the ceremony the Underboss position was vacant. In Fall 1975 the position was held by Anthony Abbatemarco. It was not until early 1977 that he was demoted; the position was still vacant as of Fall 1978 and would remain so for at least another year.

2. John Matera and Andrew Russo are specifically described as being captains when the ceremony occurred. Neither of these individuals were inducted as of 1975 and it wasn't until Fall 1978 that both men were holding the rank of Capodecina, Matera having been promoted that Summer.

https://lcnbios.blogspot.com/search?q=Halloween

[B.]

Franzese believes he was 24-years-old when he was made, but circumstantial evidence and a CW made in the same ceremony shows he was 27. I don't think three years is a major discrepancy when we're talking about a guy recalling a secret event that happened sometime around his mid-20s. His life was a whirlwind at the time and other guys from his ceremony weren't coming up to him over the years saying, "Hey Mike! Remember when we got made on Halloween 1978? Isn't it awesome being from the class of '78, bro?"

Even though part of his schtick now is to rattle off the "Ten Commandments of the Mafia", Franzese strikes me as someone on the street who was less interested in the ceremonial aspects of mafia membership and more focused on the benefits/privileges of membership, i.e. earning money, so he may not have reflected on his induction date until later when he had to recall it in testimony and books/speeches. He knew he was made on Halloween and that he was around his mid-20s. That much is true.

JD took great care in determining when the books officially opened and this started with old discussions on the board that evolved into his blog posts. He found that the families officially opened the books in late 1975, made preparations to induct ten new members each, and that these inductions were underway in January 1976. The first Gambino and Bonanno ceremonies were in late January / early February 1976 and the first Colombo ceremony by February 1976. He didn't make similar posts for the Lucchese and Genovese families, but there are FBI reports from the period that suggest inductions began around the same time. Funzie Tieri's driver was inducted in early 1976, for example.

Bottom line, I don't think it hurts Franzese's credibility that he's sticking to the 1975 date. Maybe he's just stubborn and doesn't want to give in to outsiders telling him when his own induction ceremony was, but it's also a business decision. If he admits he was wrong about his date of induction, a bunch of idiots can use that to attack his credibility. As it is right now, it's only a few researchers quietly pointing it out, but if he admits the mistake he is going to have every mob fanboy on YouTube calling him out for not knowing his own year of induction.

--

Speaking of Franzese, I like that both Franzese and Pennisi have shot down Gene Borello's inane remark about nobody using the term caporegime on the street.

That's why the hierarchy of sources is crucial.

If that was an FBI report, we'd have an anonymous CI with extensive knowledge on the Asaro crew saying "The term caporegime is no longer used on the street" and someone might think it's true. But then two member CIs come out and say the opposite, that caporegime is still used within the organization. It's not that Borello is lying -- he's an associate and isn't supposed to hear about formal ranks, so he's saying what he knows -- but he's lower on the totem pole of sources when it comes to organizational matters, so we can't take his word over two made members.

[dave]

The decision to open the books was made in 1975 and the first wave of inductions happened in January 1976. Franzese and Cafaro say new members were getting in by 1974 or 1975, but Franzese's Halloween 1975 date has been disproven and someone found out that a restaurant Cafaro referenced in his 1974 induction wasn't opened until 1976. There are others but need to dig into them more.

Didn't Il Cortile open in 1975, or did someone find out different? Their website says '75, and Manta.com says the restaurant was established in '74:

"Categorized under Italian Restaurants. Our records show it was established in 1974 and incorporated in NY. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 2326188 and employs a staff of approximately 54."

https://www.manta.com/c/mm20l8z/il-cortile

https://www.ilcortile.com/our-story

[B.]

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't the one who originally found the info years ago (might have been HairyKnuckles), but 1975 was the year that was mentioned at the time, not 1976.

I assume 1974 shows up in records because the business was registered by then, but if the website says 1975 I'd guess that's when they opened the doors.

[Angelo Santino]

I'm in my 30's and I have a hard time remembering dates from 10 years ago and I can't imagine trying to remember things from 40. The mind plays tricks on you and you get something in your head and then if you research it further by comparing small things, like I think something happened in this year which is the same year this event or film came out which turns out to not coincide with the timeline in my head... Human error is a thing. Franzese being adamant about his 1975 induction year could be one of those things. I'm less concerned with that and holding him to it compared to him claiming he made 10 million a month which I think is highly overexaggerated.

I'm glad that John and Gene call Franzese on his shit, even if its petty because when when people have to face scrutiny they're going to be more cautious about the claims they make. Had Franzese turned informant in 2000 he probably wouldn't enjoy the free reign that he does marketing himself as a "former mob boss" when plenty of people at his level flipped by this time.

But now, damn, these former members better be careful what they say on podcasts. It won't be the feds recording them it'll be their own words on their own free will. I think to John Alite saying "between all of us here we left hundreds of bodies in the street." Imagine if the FBI got a hard on, pulled him in and asked: "Ok, you admitted to x amount, who were the others that made it 100?"

And like B. already stated, people don't join he mob with the mindset of remembering dates and specific events. It's not a historian society it is an organized crime ring and you don't ask certain types of questions that researchers on a forum would. Describing a roller coaster and riding one are two different things. We forum nerds need to take that into account.