B. wrote:There was misinformation about Montagna early on that said he was just a Basciano crony whose promotion was symbolic of how far down the Bonannos had gone. People on the Real Deal jumped on this bandwagon and it was in other places too. Now it's clear that Montagna was an aggressive and resourceful leader in his own right. We have seen what he was capable of in Montreal where his mob ties were loose at best, so I hope we learn more about what he was like in NYC where he had more resources and support. The book isn't closed on him.
I don't know too much about NY other than what I read here, but I remember this theory out there that Montagna was just some flunky and would be a non-factor once he was deported. I think the only guy on RD attempting to get behind a Montagna takeover theory was JoeyCigars and everybody laughed at him saying he was an asshole and that no one in Canada gave a fuck about Montagna, not saying he had any inside knowledge though. I remember thinking at the time that this Montagna couldn't have become a major player at such a young age if he wasn't a serious guy himself, but I think a lot of people really bought into the "Sixth Family" shit and looked at Montagna, or any other Bonannos guy, as a doofus in comparison to the all-powerful & all-knowing Montreal guys.
There were a few of us that were open to the idea that Montagna would get involved in Montreal, but it was all just guesswork on everyone's part. Especially Joey
People were saying Montagna was just a flunky even when he was named acting boss around 2006. Hoping we get more info on what he was up to in NY between 2006 and 2009.
Nick Rizzuto famously did call Montagna a light-weight flunky. I think he said that with Montagna as the 'messenger boy' still in his mind. I base this on recent info stating that Montagna was sometimes used as a messenger between New York and Montreal, so he was most likely already acquainted with the Rizzutos. Old Nick did not take him serious which is what got him killed. However, Montagna's behaviour after Nick was killed was in contrast to the seemingly wise and capable leader he was known as in New York.
B. wrote:
There was misinformation about Montagna early on that said he was just a Basciano crony whose promotion was symbolic of how far down the Bonannos had gone.
Chucky wrote: I remember thinking at the time that this Montagna couldn't have become a major player at such a young age if he wasn't a serious guy himself,
I certainly don´t know much about the Montreal war but this (what B and Chucky is saying) may be why and how the conflict actually errupted up there. With the deportation to Canada, Montagna took the opportunity to bring back the Montrealers under his/Bonannos flag. But the Rizzutos said "fuck you, we´re out".
B. wrote:
There was misinformation about Montagna early on that said he was just a Basciano crony whose promotion was symbolic of how far down the Bonannos had gone.
Chucky wrote: I remember thinking at the time that this Montagna couldn't have become a major player at such a young age if he wasn't a serious guy himself,
I certainly don´t know much about the Montreal war but this (what B and Chucky is saying) may be why and how the conflict actually errupted up there. With the deportation to Canada, Montagna took the opportunity to bring back the Montrealers under his/Bonannos flag. But the Rizzutos said "fuck you, we´re out".
Capeci stated that Nick Sr. had send back word to New York that he considered Montagna a light-weight flunky and that he wasn't his boss. Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't sound as someone who had already proclaimed independence.
Lupara wrote:Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't sound as someone who had already proclaimed independence.
Exactly!
Technically Montanga out ranked Nick Sr. even in Montreal so what is a Mob boss supposed to do when a subordinate insults and ridicules you? Montagna had to act after that or all his credibility would have been lost. It's within the realm of possibility that that insult sparked the whole damn war.
B. wrote:
There was misinformation about Montagna early on that said he was just a Basciano crony whose promotion was symbolic of how far down the Bonannos had gone.
Chucky wrote: I remember thinking at the time that this Montagna couldn't have become a major player at such a young age if he wasn't a serious guy himself,
I certainly don´t know much about the Montreal war but this (what B and Chucky is saying) may be why and how the conflict actually errupted up there. With the deportation to Canada, Montagna took the opportunity to bring back the Montrealers under his/Bonannos flag. But the Rizzutos said "fuck you, we´re out".
Capeci stated that Nick Sr. had send back word to New York that he considered Montagna a light-weight flunky and that he wasn't his boss. Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't sound as someone who had already proclaimed independence.
It was more than just that. Nick Sr was upset because his son got ten yes because the entire leadership in NY flipped. And he knew Vinny appointed Sal and Vinny was boss because Massino put him there. I think at that point Nick felt NY was subpar due to amount of high level rats. How many rats u got in Montreal?
Lupara wrote:From what I recall, Sal was selected as boss by the family capos instead of being appointed by Vinny.
You sure about that? I remember reading that Vinny put him there as an attempt to keep the leadership in the Bronx because really the only guys left on the street at that point were Brooklyn and SI. Either way Nick SR was disgusted with NY and seemed to associate the mass defections in NY with almost everyone tied to the leadership in NY that ratted.. Remember Nick SR was a dinosuar. How many defections of made members has Montreal had? I think he viewed NY as weak gangsters that rat when cornered. Remember his son got ten yrs because of these flunkies in NY that ratted. And there were allot of rats. Nick Sr was probably perplexed by the mass defections of the NY leadership and disgusted that he was sending these flunkies money all these yrs when his group in Montreal has never had defections like that.
To be honest, I don't understand why didn't Nick strike against Montagna first, he should have known how younger impatient gangsters always react. I initially thought that the younger mafiosi toppling over the old ones was just a movie stereotype, but after reading about cases like Gotti vs Castellano, Montagna vs Rizzuto, Luciano vs Maranzano etc it seems the older ones become indeed "lethargic" and less belligerent with age (with maybe only Sonny Franzese as an exception). That's a shame though, after all theoretically the ones with more experience should win, instead they flush their experience down the drain and allow themselves to be whacked like that by "bambino bosses" like Montagna.
Dwalin2014 wrote:To be honest, I don't understand why didn't Nick strike against Montagna first, he should have known how younger impatient gangsters always react. I initially thought that the younger mafiosi toppling over the old ones was just a movie stereotype, but after reading about cases like Gotti vs Castellano, Montagna vs Rizzuto, Luciano vs Maranzano etc it seems the older ones become indeed "lethargic" and less belligerent with age (with maybe only Sonny Franzese as an exception). That's a shame though, after all theoretically the ones with more experience should win, instead they flush their experience down the drain and allow themselves to be whacked like that by "bambino bosses" like Montagna.
Like I stated. I think Nick Sr opinion of the NY Bonanno's was pretty low and thought most were potential rats down the line. Imagine being a LCN guy like him 80 yrs old from the old school and seeing the entire leadership of NY FLIP when faced with lond sentences. The people he had been sending money to all these yrs. He probably just saw Sal as an errand boy for the Rats in NY and he was only bumped to acting Boss because of the mass defections and convictions in NY. A kid who was a soldier one day and acting boss the next. I think Nick Sr had allot od resentment towards NY. But Sal wasn't going to starve up there. He made a play for the top spot or at least a high level spot. Sal certainly couldn't start on the bottom because he really didn't know the ins and outs of the rackets. He wasn't familiar with the construction industry or the people in it. The wire taps indicate that he approached construction industry people trying to extort waaay too much $$ then they were used too therefore exposing himself. The only way Sal could make a buck up there was to seize a top stop and have the lower level guys kick up. It was do or die for Sal.
Rocco, you reason from Nick Sr. 's perspective, which is probably correct. However his perspective was not realistic because it got him killed. Nick Sr. probably did consider the New York Bonannos weak, but at the end of the day he was still an underling in that family. The other Montreal members such as Arcuri, Di Maulo and Gallo understood that which is why they sided with Montagna, setting aside any opinions they may have had themselves.
Dwalin, Nick Sr. was in no position to strike at Montagna let alone anyone else. By the time his grandson was killed he had basically become isolated. And even if he did strike at Montagna, he would have been killed nevertheless.
Lupara wrote:Rocco, you reason from Nick Sr. 's perspective, which is probably correct. However his perspective was not realistic because it got him killed. Nick Sr. probably did consider the New York Bonannos weak, but at the end of the day he was still an underling in that family. The other Montreal members such as Arcuri, Di Maulo and Gallo understood that which is why they sided with Montagna, setting aside any opinions they may have had themselves.
Dwalin, Nick Sr. was in no position to strike at Montagna let alone anyone else. By the time his grandson was killed he had basically become isolated. And even if he did strike at Montagna, he would have been killed nevertheless.
I m not arguing w/ you. just stating my opinion on Sr's possible perspective after Massino"s defection. Montreal doesn't have the amount of made guys flipping like that.
And that's because the Canadian justice system is a joke compared to the US. If Canada would introduce similar jail sentences you'd probably see a lot more guys flip along with it.
I still dream of Desjardins flipping, he would offer so much info that any speculation on our part would be a thing of the past.
Lupara wrote:And that's because the Canadian justice system is a joke compared to the US. If Canada would introduce similar jail sentences you'd probably see a lot more guys flip along with it.
I still dream of Desjardins flipping, he would offer so much info that any speculation on our part would be a thing of the past.
Hard to say ... There are plenty of OC criminals in Canada that draw 20yr sentences and don't flip. There are also plenty of NY Bonanno's that took 20yr plea deals on the chin and didn't flip regardless of their age.. Just that Massino and the entire hierarchy flipped. So its the leadership of NY that couldn't take it on the Chin and were deemed weak. It was also rumored that plenty of NY Bonanno's were turned away by the Feds because they had so many rats they didn't need of course with no evidence or names we really can take it for what its worth...hearsay. But I do not doubt it either. But the numbers don't lie...so Nick Sr wasn't wrong. His mistake was that Sal was fighting for his livelyhood up there...and then later his very life. But the only way Sal was gonna make a buck up there was to attempt a leadership position and have the existing Foot soldiers kick up to him from their rackets because Sal really didnt know the people within those rackets up there. He might have been a messenger for George at one time but didn't know ins and outs of the rackets up there to be able to just jump in and open a sports book and loan sharking rackets. Never mind the construction industry. One article stated he was fuckin things up for everyone the way he was approaching companies in the construction industry.
