Sotto capo

[Eline2015]

Sorry for stupid question, but anderboss position is only American experience and doesn’t exist in Sicilian mafia?

[Shellackhead]

Sorry for stupid question, but anderboss position is only American experience and doesn’t exist in Sicilian mafia?

Sottocapo is basically a translation of Underboss. It was used more during the pre 1950s when a lot of wise guys were fluent in Italian.

[Shellackhead]

Sorry for stupid question, but anderboss position is only American experience and doesn’t exist in Sicilian mafia?

In the Sicilian mafia, there is no sottocapo since there’s just not enough guys to control, most clans/families have 5-10 actual members so having an underboss is pointless when most street guys have direct contact with the capo mandamento/boss

[johnny_scootch]

Sorry for stupid question, but anderboss position is only American experience and doesn’t exist in Sicilian mafia?

In the Sicilian mafia, there is no sottocapo since there’s just not enough guys to control, most clans/families have 5-10 actual members so having an underboss is pointless when most street guys have direct contact with the capo mandamento/boss

Yes the sicilian families have an underboss they may or may not have capodecinas depending on the size of the family per Buscetta.

[Wiseguy]

Sorry for stupid question, but anderboss position is only American experience and doesn’t exist in Sicilian mafia?

In the Sicilian mafia, there is no sottocapo since there’s just not enough guys to control, most clans/families have 5-10 actual members so having an underboss is pointless when most street guys have direct contact with the capo mandamento/boss

It's a little more than 5-10. If I remember right, 10 is the minimum a clan has to have to even be considered legitimate.

For the Sicilian Mafia, even if you go with the high estimate of 180 clans (the highest I've seen anyway) and the lowest estimate of members (3,500), that still averages out to about 20 members per clan. Obviously some will be bigger than others.

But you're right, they are smaller than what we're used to seeing in the U.S.

[Eline2015]

Thanks guys

[InCamelot]

But has anyone been able to pin down the function of the underboss so far?

The most common explanation is "they fill in for the boss", but then the need for "street boss" or "acting boss" still eventually came up in America.
Even 'acting underbosses' became a thing.

They don't seem to be another layer of insulation between capos and bosses, because capos often meet direct with bosses.

[scagghiuni]

Sorry for stupid question, but anderboss position is only American experience and doesn’t exist in Sicilian mafia?

In the Sicilian mafia, there is no sottocapo since there’s just not enough guys to control, most clans/families have 5-10 actual members so having an underboss is pointless when most street guys have direct contact with the capo mandamento/boss

it depends on the size of the family, some are big 60/70 members and they have underboss, consigliere and capodecina ranks

[Shellackhead]

Sorry for stupid question, but anderboss position is only American experience and doesn’t exist in Sicilian mafia?

In the Sicilian mafia, there is no sottocapo since there’s just not enough guys to control, most clans/families have 5-10 actual members so having an underboss is pointless when most street guys have direct contact with the capo mandamento/boss

it depends on the size of the family, some are big 60/70 members and they have underboss, consigliere and capodecina ranks

Oh really I didn’t know, I’ve never read anything mafia related in Italian & those sources are usually accurate when speaking about the Italian Mafia groups. I always thought it was 5-20 members some vary & they didn’t operate with underboss or capodecinas since there was elections every year.

[Shellackhead]

But has anyone been able to pin down the function of the underboss so far?

The most common explanation is "they fill in for the boss", but then the need for "street boss" or "acting boss" still eventually came up in America.
Even 'acting underbosses' became a thing.

They don't seem to be another layer of insulation between capos and bosses, because capos often meet direct with bosses.

UB is really just there as a Vice President if you look at it that way, Only thing is that 9/10 the UB is a childhood friend/very tight with the boss. Obviously you have your gravanos who were very active in the scheming & earning side of things during his tenure.

[johnny_scootch]

Only thing is that 9/10 the UB is a childhood friend/very tight with the boss.

9/10 childhood friends? Cmon


The underboss is the number 2 in rank overall but they only have as much power as the boss gives them. You could be a Neil Dellcroce who controls an entire faction of the family or be Sal Vitale who had the rank but was stripped of all power and duties.

Rank doesn't necessarily equal power and vice versa.

[scagghiuni]

Sorry for stupid question, but anderboss position is only American experience and doesn’t exist in Sicilian mafia?

In the Sicilian mafia, there is no sottocapo since there’s just not enough guys to control, most clans/families have 5-10 actual members so having an underboss is pointless when most street guys have direct contact with the capo mandamento/boss

it depends on the size of the family, some are big 60/70 members and they have underboss, consigliere and capodecina ranks

Oh really I didn’t know, I’ve never read anything mafia related in Italian & those sources are usually accurate when speaking about the Italian Mafia groups. I always thought it was 5-20 members some vary & they didn’t operate with underboss or capodecinas since there was elections every year.

the families based in palermo city are usually bigger than the ones based in the villages, corso dei mille family has about 70 members for example, and the whole mandamento (brancaccio) over 200... the mandamento has also an underboss (sottocapo mandamento)

[InCamelot]

But has anyone been able to pin down the function of the underboss so far?

The most common explanation is "they fill in for the boss", but then the need for "street boss" or "acting boss" still eventually came up in America.
Even 'acting underbosses' became a thing.

They don't seem to be another layer of insulation between capos and bosses, because capos often meet direct with bosses.

UB is really just there as a Vice President if you look at it that way, Only thing is that 9/10 the UB is a childhood friend/very tight with the boss. Obviously you have your gravanos who were very active in the scheming & earning side of things during his tenure.

I have to look more into vice presidents, but I think some have this question about them as well: I'm curious to know why a boss would bother having an underboss as an official position, and how has it not been rendered obsolete after all this time?

A lot of people say well they're a mouth-piece, or they're there when the boss isn't available. But years and years of having an underboss still created the need to have an acting-boss in some cases, a right-hand man in other cases, a driver, an assistant, etc.

The theory I had is the concept of an underboss in pre-contemporary times, is that they pad some sort of political concern the boss has. It is a little bit like a partnership (which is how apparently Chicago worked). That is how underbosses were still a thing through all these years.

The underbosses often (although not always) are politically fairly strong within their own family. I would go as far to suggest that if you look at who the underboss was, you get a glimpse into what the boss might be concerned about politically or even psychologically.

Could go more into it, but yeah. Look at some examples - see if they fit.

[InCamelot]

And I would add, if you see an underboss like a Vitale, or any other one you think was just a lackey that the boss tacked on? It might a clue as to how that boss thinks, and what he's concerned about. He might not trust as many other factions beyond his own personal circle.