Los Angeles odds & ends

[Costigan]

In his book he says that one day LT Dragna called him, this would have been early 60's, and asked when he was coming down to SoCal to visit his old buddies? Dragna eventually cuts to the chase and mentions "they had heard he had been transferred" and wants to know how he got it done. "I went to Chicago and did it." "Nick and Frank says you didn't talk to them about it." Fratianno admits he didn't talk to them about it,"they tried to put a blanket on me. I'm not telling them nothing." Dragna then quizzes him about Roselli's involvement in the said transfer. Jimmy tells Dragna that such a move by Roselli would have been against the rules and to stop trying to get Roselli in trouble.
During this time Jimmy was spending a lot of time with Roselli and Frank laPorte, as well as meeting with Giancana a couple of times. I never realized this supposed transfer to Chicago by Fratianno was such a mess. I mean, it looks like HE thought he was transferred, but nobody else thought that, outside of maybe Roselli & Giancana.

[Villain]

In his book he says that one day LT Dragna called him, this would have been early 60's, and asked when he was coming down to SoCal to visit his old buddies? Dragna eventually cuts to the chase and mentions "they had heard he had been transferred" and wants to know how he got it done. "I went to Chicago and did it." "Nick and Frank says you didn't talk to them about it." Fratianno admits he didn't talk to them about it,"they tried to put a blanket on me. I'm not telling them nothing." Dragna then quizzes him about Roselli's involvement in the said transfer. Jimmy tells Dragna that such a move by Roselli would have been against the rules and to stop trying to get Roselli in trouble.
During this time Jimmy was spending a lot of time with Roselli and Frank laPorte, as well as meeting with Giancana a couple of times. I never realized this supposed transfer to Chicago by Fratianno was such a mess. I mean, it looks like HE thought he was transferred, but nobody else thought that, outside of maybe Roselli & Giancana.

Thanks for additional info and yeah that was my point, meaning he was probably swindled by Giancana and Roselli by thinking that he was a member of the Outfit, OR he somehow tried to "sneak" in with their help but didn't succeed lol

[Villain]

In addition im currently having bad luck in finding the MF file in which the Chi boys referred to Fratianno as "kook" (a mad or eccentric person) regarding the same problem....so if some1 has better luck, pls post it in this thread

[B.]

I strongly believe that Fratianno was swindled by both Roselli and Giancana, and they either took money or received some interests from Fratianno for it, and thats why they kept their mouths shut in Chicago so they wont share....or in other words it is possible that Fratianno somehow paid for his alleged membership, just to getaway from the LA fam, but was swindled by Giancana and Roselli by not being recognized by any high level member of the Outfit. Thats why Licata stayed out of it.

Great find on the Lucchese bit. I knew Bompensiero wanted to transfer to Chicago like Roselli and Fratianno, but didn't realize Lucchese contacted Giancana to block Bompensiero's transfer. Given Giancana approved Roselli and was planning to approve Bompensiero, it gives Fratianno's claim more weight that he was approved by Giancana. Bompensiero says Licata was actively avoiding making contact with Giancana, too, suggesting he didn't want to give Fratianno any chance at having the transfer legitimized. Bompensiero said Licata's plan was to shelve Fratianno.

This shows that a family's Commission representative could veto transfers even if the bosses approved. Lucchese and Bompensiero had both been part of the Willie Moretti murder conspiracy and Bompensiero was one of LA's more prolific killers earlier on. Interesting Lucchese used a murder contract as an argument against the transfer.

Here is a doc about transfer protocol:



^ This was pretty typical transfer protocol and is corroborated by Nick Gentile and others. Interesting how Commission rep Lucchese intervened in Bompensiero's transfer and Licata claimed Fratianno's captain and the soldiers in his decina also had to be consulted. Shows that the process could be more complicated than just bosses approving and sending letters. Nick Gentile said the SF family's council / consiglio had to meet in order to approve his transfer to SF.

I doubt Fratianno was swindled for money or any kind of material gain by Roselli / Giancana, but it would have given Chicago yet another well-connected member on the west coast. Before that, Fratianno, Bompensiero, and Roselli were trying to get support from Chicago, Tampa, Cleveland, and possibly other families in their plot to take over the LA family, so Giancana may have been politically motivated by the idea having three Chicago members in California with an interest in pushing the LA family out.

Another issue may have been that transfers were blocked (or at least severely limited) for a period after Apalachin:

[motorfab]

Great sutff guys. The way I interpret things after reading The Last Mafioso

For his transfer: he was transferred to Chicago but only under Giancana's control with Roselli's complicity (no one in L.A. liked DeSimone, which is why 4 or 5 guys got off). And Licata did not recognize his transfer. Fratianno waited until Dragna called him back before returning completely.

For his position in the mid-70's: he wasn't a co-acting boss but definitely acting underboss. Sam Sciortino was also in prison with Brooklier at the time. Besides, he did not describe himself as a co-boss in his book (he did not say the opposite either that said). On the other hand he seemed to behave as if he were acting boss when he went to NY or Cleveland.

[Angelo Santino]

Great sutff guys. The way I interpret things after reading The Last Mafioso

For his transfer: he was transferred to Chicago but only under Giancana's control with Roselli's complicity (no one in L.A. liked DeSimone, which is why 4 or 5 guys got off). And Licata did not recognize his transfer. Fratianno waited until Dragna called him back before returning completely.

For his position in the mid-70's: he wasn't a co-acting boss but definitely acting underboss. Sam Sciortino was also in prison with Brooklier at the time. Besides, he did not describe himself as a co-boss in his book (he did not say the opposite either that said). On the other hand he seemed to behave as if he were acting boss when he went to NY or Cleveland.

Same. Fratianno believed the transfer but it seems others did not. Chicago's members didn't consider Fratianno part of them because Giancana didn't make any introductions between Fratianno and Chicago members as such. It's a grey area. But what it showcases for us is the limitation of so-called "secret members" and if one's own membership could only be confirmed by one individual who dies, your membership would be null and void. Hence, one of the important reasons for socializing and why members seek to meet each other.

[B.]

This one is hard to read in places, but lays it out pretty well. The scenario remains consistent. It sounds like Giancana pressured Desimone into agreeing, which may have been why he did nothing to formalize it on LA's end. During that time we know too that Desimone was avoiding meeting with other family members.

Bompensiero, Roselli, and Fratianno were also enjoying the fact that Licata was having to deal with this dilemma, as this report says. As the end of it notes, captain Adamo was trying to collect all of the LA member's votes for the new boss election and Adamo was upset he couldn't collect Fratianno's vote due to the Chicago issue.

[Villain]

It seems that Giancana also avoided the whole mess and thats why everyone went to Ricca and Accardo who didnt know anything about it. Fratianno was quite aware about the problem and thats why he protected Roselli in front of everyone and saw his own salvation in him but it was too late since the damage has already been done

[Confederate]

I never knew there was a trend against DeSimone and it fits perfectly with all the transfers at the time. It is interesting to see if the Lucchese family were also aware of the transfer or not, since we know they were involved with the LA fam and the informant also mentiones Tommy Brown...




To be honest guys im still not convinced that Fratianno was ever a official full fledged member of the Outfit mainly because he wasnt recognized as one by anyone in the Chi organization, except by one former boss and one soldier. I mean, if you consider yourself a member of a family, but on the other hand no1 from that same family recognizes you as one, than you have a huge problem.

I strongly believe that Fratianno was swindled by both Roselli and Giancana, and they either took money or received some interests from Fratianno for it, and thats why they kept their mouths shut in Chicago so they wont share....or in other words it is possible that Fratianno somehow paid for his alleged membership, just to getaway from the LA fam, but was swindled by Giancana and Roselli by not being recognized by any high level member of the Outfit. Thats why Licata stayed out of it.

It is possible that they also looked at him as a fool or a "conniver" like Alderisio said, and simply swindled him...what was Fratianno going to do? Go against Giancana and the Outfit? Giancana was out of the country by 66 and became one of the Mobs main international reps around the world...also, as I already stated by that time Roselli lost his influence within the Outfit because of stuff like these...Fratianno...losing points at the Frontier by the Detriot fam....trying to extort Dalitz...and trying to takeover the LA fam...and i believe this was all Giancanas influence and his alibi was being out of the country

On top of that, during those days Fratianno was in debt to Alderisio who in turn was giving him loans at the time, and high level member such as Alderisio wasnt aware that Fratianno was in his own family? That stinks because as I already said that Alderisio was Giancana loyalist and knew almost everyone or who was who in the Outfit, KC, Milwaukee etc. since he controlled interests all around the country, same as LaPorte

If you have any F.B.I. Transcripts to back up how much Fratianno owed Alderisio, in addition to the fact that the Outfit guys thought he was a conniver, leads me to the obvious conclusion that Giancana told Fratianno whatever he wanted to hear so he could repay whatever money he owed Alderisio. Then, after that was done, Giancana forgot the whole transfer thing because they never want Fratianno anyway. I think your swindle theory is correct but it looks like it was based more on getting a debt repaid IMO.
Giancana did the same thing with the CIA. Pretended to go along with them & did nothing.

[Villain]

If you have any F.B.I. Transcripts to back up how much Fratianno owed Alderisio, in addition to the fact that the Outfit guys thought he was a conniver, leads me to the obvious conclusion that Giancana told Fratianno whatever he wanted to hear so he could repay whatever money he owed Alderisio.

Yeah i completely forgot to check that....right now all we have is that Alderisio was making loans to Fratianno at the time but wasnt aware regarding his alleged transfer and your theory might be just one of the many complications which prohibited Fratianno in being recognized as member of the Outfit

[Angelo Santino]

In his book he says that one day LT Dragna called him, this would have been early 60's, and asked when he was coming down to SoCal to visit his old buddies? Dragna eventually cuts to the chase and mentions "they had heard he had been transferred" and wants to know how he got it done. "I went to Chicago and did it." "Nick and Frank says you didn't talk to them about it." Fratianno admits he didn't talk to them about it,"they tried to put a blanket on me. I'm not telling them nothing." Dragna then quizzes him about Roselli's involvement in the said transfer. Jimmy tells Dragna that such a move by Roselli would have been against the rules and to stop trying to get Roselli in trouble.
During this time Jimmy was spending a lot of time with Roselli and Frank laPorte, as well as meeting with Giancana a couple of times. I never realized this supposed transfer to Chicago by Fratianno was such a mess. I mean, it looks like HE thought he was transferred, but nobody else thought that, outside of maybe Roselli & Giancana.

Before that point, when Fratianno is just released and Roselli tells him he's transferring back to Chicago. During that conversation he gives Jimmy an envelope: Philly Alderisio sent 1000, Tom Dragna 1500, Roselli 2500. So Fratianno had to have known Alderisio. And given Fratianno's connection to Frank LaPorte, you would expect LaPorte to at least be familiar with the situation. Although again, there's no evidence that Fratianno was ever under LaPorte as a soldier. The book doesn't even imply it.

After what Costigan posted above, and I believe it was done by a phone call and that Giancana was introduced to him near Burbank and very little in the way of formalities is discussed. Giancana concludes it with saying if there's anything Fratianno needed to go to Roselli.

Cut to 1976 when LT Dragna brings it up: "I told them I'd do it only if you came in with me. You know, we'll run the family together. They liked the idea."
JF: "You mean we'll be acting bosses, share the responsibility?
LTD: "Exactly, but you'll be carrying most of the load. I'm so busy right now I don't know if I'm coming or going ."
JF: "Number one, Louie, I'd have to get Chicago's permission to transfer back to LA."
LTD: "That won't be no problem. Just tell the old man we're going to be acting bosses while Brooklier's in jail."
JF: "Number two, if I agree to go along, I'm staying put in San Francisco. I'm making a living up there and I'm not coming down here to make money for a bunch of deadheads. I'll set things up, start making some movies, but these guys here are going to do the work. This family has been laying dead for twenty years. It's about time we shake everybody up, including NY and Chicago. They've been getting away with murder around here for years."
LTD: "That's fine, Jimmy. You do what you want and I'll back you."

The next day, Fratianno traveled to Cleveland and met with Moceri and Delsanter where he "told them about LT Dragna's proposal."
LM: "I think you should do it.
TD: "I do too... Revamp the family, Jimmy. Then put it to a vote when he comes out of the joint. A lot can happen in twenty months."

Would Delsanter (Under) encourage an acting boss of another family to try and dethrone the current one? Seems like Dope would get in trouble if it ever came out he suggested that. I could be wrong and I'm sure its happened in the annals of mob history.

Some time later who goes to Chicago.
JF: "I told them I had to get your blessings on this transfer."
Aiuppa: "Go ahead, Jimmy. You can tell them you've got our blessings."

Again, I believe it would need to be Brooklier and Aiuppa having a formal discussion or agreement, or least least their representatives. But perhaps it could be argued that Fratianno's upcoming position as AU circumvented that necessity? Again, I don't know, these are random thoughts. Not saying it was this way or that way.

The back to LA to meet Brooklier:
JF: "The old man gave me his blessings, I'll do the best I can, you know. If I can make some money while you're in prison, we'll see that your family gets a piece of it."
DB: "I'd appreciate it, Jimmy."
JF: "I told Louie I plan to make some movies, you know, shake up a few people that's taken over in our country."
DB: "I'm glad to hear that, Jimmy, I'm all for doing something with this porno shit New York's pulling on us."

Fratianno and Rizzi went to Chicago to meet with Joey Lombardo, Jack Cerone and Joe Batters.
JF: "Jackie, you know, Mike's not a made guy, be sure to tell the old man."
Jackie Cerone: "Yeah, okay. Listen, Joe Batters is also coming over.
J.Aiuppa arrives, Frat introduces him as a friend of Mine. Then Accardo arrives and Aiuppa introduces Mike to him as a friend of Ours.
JF: "Wait a minute, hold the phone. (Mike), go sit near the bar."
Joseph Aiuppa: "What the fuck is going?"
JF: "Joey, Mike's not a made guy. He's proposed but we ain't gotten around to making him yet. I told Spilotro and Jackie to tell you this."
JC: "Wait a minute, why tell Spilotro? He's nothing but a fucking soldier. You've got no right telling that guy nothing."
JA: "That's okay. No harm done, the guy's going to get made. Call him back here."
...
JA: "I hear you and Mike also went to see Sid awhile back. I told you last time, we don't allow nobody in the family to talk to this guy. We don't want no fucking heat on him."
JF: "Joey, he's in our country and won't raise a finger to help us. He bullshits me about being on the outs with Andy. You said you'd talk to him, but he says nobody from Chicago talked to him."
Anthony Accardo: "Let's calm down. Jimmy, Sid's been with Gussie over 30 years and Gussie's with us. Sid's a good provider for our family and we don't want nobody to fuck with him."
JF: "But Joe, all we did is talk to the man. We need a fucking favor."
AA: "I appreciate your problem, but we don't want him to be seen with nobody. I can't make it no plainer than that. He's off limits. That's it, Jimmy."
JF: "That's rediculous! We don't pull dumb shit like that in our family. Look, I went to talk to the man, that's it. That's bullshit. If he said that, he's lying, or he's got some enemy I don't know nothing about."
AA: "Jimmy, look into it, see if you can find out who did it. We don't want nobody muscling the guy."

Fratianno meets with the Genoveses in NYC- Mangano and Tieri
JF: "The boss and underboss are in jail and me and Louie Dragna are running things until they come out."
Funzi Tieri: "That's the way it should be, guys helping each other out. We have some bosses in prison here, too. It happens and when it does it's good to have someone step in that can carry on.
Funzi then asks who the Weasel is why he's meeting with Joe Bonanno. Fratianno claims he's the Weasel and 100% denies it and the conversation shifts to Bompensiero.
JF: "I know that, Funzi, and I've told this guy not to fuck with this Bonanno."
FT: "Well, now that you're acting boss you better clean up your family. This Bonanno's a leper. Anybody that touches him gets poisoned, capito?"
..
While in NY, Fratianno meets with Sinatra and sits with Carlo Gambino, what was said isn't covered. We don't know how they were introduced.
..
Later on Tieri tells Fratianno that if Cleveland needs anything to let him know.
..
They meet after Mike Rizzi is made and a captain. Funzi goes into it:
FT: "My underboss Eli (Zeccardi), this's Fat Tony, my consigliere, and Chin Gigante. This's Jim Fratianno, the acting boss in Los Angeles and Mike Rizzi."
..
Another sitdown with the Gambinos, Paul as acting boss, Jimmy Brown acting Under, Gallo consig." How the introduction is made isn't clarified.
..
Another meet and great includes "Brooklyn hierarchy" Tom Di Bello, underboss Abbattermarco, consig Alphonse Persico. Andrew Russo, D'Ambrosio, Benny Eggs, Louie and Vinnie beans, Terry Zappi, Frankie Felice, Angelo Bruno and Russel Bufalino.
Russel Bufalino: "They tell me you're the acting boss in LA but that you live in Frisco. Is that right?"

So by this point, the entire east coast is operating on the belief that Fratianno is Acting Boss. I could see why this would get him into hot water. Tieri, Castellano and DiBella dealt with him as the AB only to be told later he wasn't.

"Jimmy walked into Marson's garage as an acting boss and walked out a few minutes later as just another soldier."
DB: "Well, Jimmy, I'm feeling pretty good, so we're taking back control of the family. We appreciate what you did for us and we'll continue cutting up the money on the deals you've got going with Marson and the Sinatra benefit."
Jimmy took it without flinching.

Months later, Jimmy gets called in by Brooklier.
JF: "What's up? We are going to play games?"
DB: "Jimmy, I want to hear it from you."
JF: "What do you want to hear?"
DB: "I understand there's two factions?"
JF: "What the fuck you getting at?"
DB: "I hear you've got a crew of your own?"
JF: "Hey, let me tell you something, Jimmy- Dominic, or whatever your name is today. While you were in the joint, I came here to try and do some good. I went and grabbed a few people, tried to make some money for this family. Do you remember I saved your life when I pulled you away from Mickey Cohen? What's this bullshit all about. Who's starting it? What the fuck do you mean two factions?"
DB: "Jimmy, you've got a bad mouth, like Bomp, you know."
JF: "If anybody's got a bad mouth, it's Sciortino. Where'd you find that prick, anyway? He's been poisoning your mind about me. Look, if I've got a complaint I'll tell it straight to you. And you do the same with me. Don't go telling me about two factions. Don't try that Nick Licata shit on me. I've had that treatment once before and that's enough. Look, I transferred here from Chicago to help you guys when Louie asked me. There's nothing I want in LA. I hate that town, it's all yours, Dominic. You're welcome to it."
DB: "Your living in San Francisco makes no difference. You're still a soldier in my family. You understand that, I'm the boss?"
JF: "I don't want to fight you. Say what you've got to say and let me get out of here. And one last thing, what's Sciortino getting at when he says, "we eliminated Bomp and there's more to come."

So after this, he again meets with guys in NY, Tieri about the Sinatra thing. None of this is addressed.
Fratianno met with NY after he had been demoted to soldier. So the AB thing must have taken some time to come out?

Fratianno meets with Delsanter and Licavoli in CL.
J.Licavoli: "Them cocksuckers knew better than to come directly to us. They know how close you are to this family. I told them it was bullshit, that we knew the whole story, that you're acting boss while Brooklier was in the joint. But, listen, Jimmy, them guys are up to something, laying the groundwork. I know they also went to Chicago."
JF: "That's crazy."
Delsanter: "Jimmy, they denied Brooklier made you acting boss. They said Louie Dragna was the acting boss and all he asked you to do was shake down a few porno guys."

I believe this is what happened. First he claims LTD suggested they both be acting bosses, then he goes to NY and states the B and U are in jail and that he and LT Dragna are the AB and AU. That's similar to what Al Pajamas was telling people in Phila: "I'm a capo, if John goes away, me and Frank Martines (under) are taking over. It's stretching the envelope and giving one the impression they are higher than they are.

I really think Brooklier knew that he had to do was give Fratianno enough rope to hang himself. He wasn't Sherlock Holmes who could predict what someone would exactly do, but with Jimmy, treachery, conniver and deception were a trademark of his character. It would have been out of character for him to be any other way. It's interesting.

[Villain]

Thanks.

This is from Fratianno's book right?...if so, dont you think that the convo between him and Accardo is a little bit exaggerated, I mean there was no way for Fratianno to talk in that type of form to Accardo, like "Thats ridiculous, We don't pull dumb shit like that in our family. Look, I went to talk to the man, that's it. That's bullshit. "...i mean common, ive read dozens of convos between Accardo and numerous guys and no1 talked to him like that

Also, theres no question that Alderisio knew Fratianno since he loaned money to him and thats why Alderisio used bad words to describe him....not many people know this but Fratianno was also associated with both Dave Yaras and Lenny Patrick since the early 50s and still, he wasnt recognized by anyone in Chicago 10 years later...not by Alderisio, nor by Yaras or his alleged capo LaPorte

[Angelo Santino]

Yes. I also have Vengeance is Mine which functions as a sequel and details his time after agreeing to cooperate, trials and what not. Anything you want me to keep an eye out for?

[Villain]

Yes. I also have Vengeance is Mine which functions as a sequel and details his time after agreeing to cooperate, trials and what not. Anything you want me to keep an eye out for?

I dont want to bother you but if you have them in electronic versions, see if theres something regarding David Zatz and whats Fratiannos conclusion about it? If you have the books in hard copy, dont bother then since I think that we are almost reaching the final conclusion....it seems that the whole transfer started as one huge mess, but in the end it is possible that Fratianno was still recognized by some of the following bosses such as Aiuppa...who knows, since the main problem at the time was that both Giancana and Roselli, Fratiannos so-called sponsors, lost their influence within the organization but its possible that some guys saw Fratianno as additional income.....

[Angelo Santino]

I'm not seeing David Zatz in the index. And no, I had to type that up but I don't mind, it's a good reference tool that we can all kick back and forth.