Cleveland Crime Family

[Lefty_Ruggiero]

I am sure the next one will be Wilkes-Barre/Scranton.

[Angelo Santino]

Such a thread sounds interesting. What challenges in 2014 are you referring to?

Let me get my thoughts together and I'll start it.

In 2014 Rick and I wrote an article where we try to explain the formation of NY 1860-1920. We wrote it backed up everything with sources so it could pass The Wiseguy Scrutiny Test by others who may have doubted our findings. Ten years ago if I read an article with Masseria being arrested with 5 Italian names I would include them as early Genovese members. Today my conclusion would be they might have been amico nos but unless confirmed by an informant then its lost to history. That's what I mean when I say you encourage people to make stronger evidence-based cases.

You told me to be ready to nitpick it when it came out and I did my best. The most controversial claim I could find is that Cascio Ferro was a Morello member and even then there is a strong argument to be made for that and I have no slam dunk counter-evidence that proves otherwise, only circumstantial info/reasoning. That this was the only thing I could really challenge speaks to the article's reasoning and sources.

I'm not kissing your ass, I just think it's worth everybody's time to comb through Informer issue May 2014 and absorb what's there. Even though things have come a long way in the last ten years even, I believe a lot of misunderstandings about the mafia still stem from people not understanding the continuity / connections that date back to the 1800s + 1900s-1910s.

It's also helped with other research. For example, the discovery that the Governale-Orlando-Schiro clan likely started the "Bonanno" family before the Castellammarese were much of a presence has explained how early figures like consigliere Filippo Rappa fit in -- he was from Borgetto and immigration records show relation/connection to the earlier Governale-Orlando-Schiro clan. Rappa was likely elected consigliere after the Castellammarese took over as a remnant of the earlier leadership regime. It also explains why, during an era of political marriages, Joe Bonanno married into the Camporealesi.

Yeah, along with a few other Bisacquinese people who seemed affiliated with Morello in more ways than one. No informant ever said directly one way or the other. From my outsider view, for Cascio Ferro to be with the Gambinos and not the Morellos would be like suggesting Bobby Manna was a Gambino despite being around Chin. But if somewhere, somehow some credible source says he was Gambino I'll say ok, I was wrong, thank you truly for the confirmation. So how does this and that coincide with...."

When I do go through the 1900's stuff again I will try and approach it from the perspective that CF might have been a Gambino and see where that goes. But man, he was ass buddies with Clemente and then Morello, he was around people who were around people. With Lupo, those ties dwindled down to Pietro Inzerillo who was already connected to everyone as far as Cleveland.

Giuseppe Boscarino was another Bisacquinese individual suspected of being a member long affiliated with Morello. I strongly get the sense that this Bisacquinese faction was under Morello before D'Aquila. If it comes out or I'm proven wrong I'll freely own up up it.

The only argument I can muster against it is that Clemente, a Genovese member, was very close Gambino members. If you didn't know any better you'd think they were the same group. But we know he was Genovese (Morello). But what Clement showed was that everyone was connected to everyone. Guilt by associatation between NY's Family has severe limitations. However, the flip side would be for me (and Rick) to start color coding origins and claiming Palermo was 100% Gambino, interior 100% Corleonese and so on. But it's not. It's an organic group and if I was born in Palermo but married your sister and you're a Corleonese member and I join the mob through you then chances are I'd be Gen and not Gam. Bisacquino, in Sicily, falls under Corleonese territory. You don't see them with the Sciaccatani despite the links. But then Sicily isn't America.

[Angelo Santino]

I am sure the next one will be Wilkes-Barre/Scranton.

Good point. We know that Big Billy was close to Ralph Natale. Maybe Big Bill had a successor who was connected to Uncle Joe who personally taught him how to make money and not make headlines. It is a social organization after all.

[Patrickgold]

They were watching it for 5 years and it brought in half million. Open since the early 80’s and you don’t think it’s multi million? I love how you think you can determine the amount an organization has to make to be considered a LCN organization. Why don’t you actually do some real research and stop acting like you are actually knowledgeable about these subjects.

In response to question, do some actual research on the subject and figure out how they found these guys. Then tell me if it was connected to the family secrets trial.

Just to be a little more clear regarding the 2006 gambling bust, the Assistant U.S. Attorney at that trial kept trying to bring up the fact the gambling operation was in partnership with the Outfit and kept referencing the Family Secrets trial. Judge Philip Reinhard twice told the AUSA that he couldn't mention that because the death of Frank Saladino severed the others from that trial. It was my understanding from the trial that the $500,000 number that was given was only what the US could prove was bet through testimony and evidence over that number of years.
The government stated the operation went back to at least the early 1980s but I was in fact part of an ongoing floating gambling operation going back to at least the mid 1960s. This gambling operation was directly overseen by capo Charles Vince from the 1960s through the 1980s and was then overseen by capo Sebastian Gulotta. After Gulotta's death, this responsibility was passed on to Frank Saladino.
Not to stir the pot or take sides either way, but this is how it was.

Thanks Cavita for clearing that up about the gambling ring. I didn’t know it was actually going back since the 60s and was being overseen By Vince. These guys were lucky to get the case severed. If they would have got RICO added to their case, their 6 month sentences could have turned into 20 year sentences.

Do you know who oversaw the poker games that were going on in the 2000s that the article mentions?

[B.]

Cascio Ferro

I'll save it for the Cascio Ferro thread if I want to dig in again, haha.

Point being, the best I could do is point out ambiguities related to the affiliation of a guy who was in the US for a couple of years almost 120 years ago. Couldn't challenge anything to do with Mineo, Orlando, or Lupo, which are the boldest claims.

The article has provided a great skeleton for other research. Looking into Girolamo Asaro and seeing that Carlo Costantino bailed him out of jail -- thanks to the article, it wasn't a mystery why they were connected. The name Costantino is known because of the Petrosino murder, but I wouldn't have understood why a mafia figure from Partinico bailed out a Castellammarese mafioso at that time. Now it's a given.

[cavita]

They were watching it for 5 years and it brought in half million. Open since the early 80’s and you don’t think it’s multi million? I love how you think you can determine the amount an organization has to make to be considered a LCN organization. Why don’t you actually do some real research and stop acting like you are actually knowledgeable about these subjects.

In response to question, do some actual research on the subject and figure out how they found these guys. Then tell me if it was connected to the family secrets trial.

Just to be a little more clear regarding the 2006 gambling bust, the Assistant U.S. Attorney at that trial kept trying to bring up the fact the gambling operation was in partnership with the Outfit and kept referencing the Family Secrets trial. Judge Philip Reinhard twice told the AUSA that he couldn't mention that because the death of Frank Saladino severed the others from that trial. It was my understanding from the trial that the $500,000 number that was given was only what the US could prove was bet through testimony and evidence over that number of years.
The government stated the operation went back to at least the early 1980s but I was in fact part of an ongoing floating gambling operation going back to at least the mid 1960s. This gambling operation was directly overseen by capo Charles Vince from the 1960s through the 1980s and was then overseen by capo Sebastian Gulotta. After Gulotta's death, this responsibility was passed on to Frank Saladino.
Not to stir the pot or take sides either way, but this is how it was.

Thanks Cavita for clearing that up about the gambling ring. I didn’t know it was actually going back since the 60s and was being overseen By Vince. These guys were lucky to get the case severed. If they would have got RICO added to their case, their 6 month sentences could have turned into 20 year sentences.

Do you know who oversaw the poker games that were going on in the 2000s that the article mentions?

Rockford PD Detective Jeff Stovall stated (as a result of the 2005 poker game robbery/death) that the floating gambling games were known as "The Soccer Club" and was overseen by Salvatore Galluzzo and his brother Natale. The Soccer Club games were noted many times in FBI files from the 1990s and was reported to have floated all over northern Illinois but was centered in Rockford. It was noted that these games would sometimes be held in businesses or hotels- hotels in Itasca, Illinois and Crystal Lake, Illinois were specifically mentioned and it was generally noted that one needed at least $5,000 to participate in these games.
1990s FBI files indicated that Sebastian Gulotta was in charge of collecting the street tax on many of these gambling games and that he used, among others, Frank Saladino as a collector/enforcer for such.

[Angelo Santino]

Cascio Ferro

I'll save it for the Cascio Ferro thread if I want to dig in again, haha.

Point being, the best I could do is point out ambiguities related to the affiliation of a guy who was in the US for a couple of years almost 120 years ago. Couldn't challenge anything to do with Mineo, Orlando, or Lupo, which are the boldest claims.

The article has provided a great skeleton for other research. Looking into Girolamo Asaro and seeing that Carlo Costantino bailed him out of jail -- thanks to the article, it wasn't a mystery why they were connected. The name Costantino is known because of the Petrosino murder, but I wouldn't have understood why a mafia figure from Partinico bailed out a Castellammarese mafioso at that time. Now it's a given.

If and when it comes out I'm wrong I'll commend you for seeing what I didn't and do my best to learn from it.

[Patrickgold]

Let me get my thoughts together and I'll start it.

In 2014 Rick and I wrote an article where we try to explain the formation of NY 1860-1920. We wrote it backed up everything with sources so it could pass The Wiseguy Scrutiny Test by others who may have doubted our findings. Ten years ago if I read an article with Masseria being arrested with 5 Italian names I would include them as early Genovese members. Today my conclusion would be they might have been amico nos but unless confirmed by an informant then its lost to history. That's what I mean when I say you encourage people to make stronger evidence-based cases.

You know how you've sort of narrowed your research over time to focus on the early years, like the Mid-1800's to 1930? Well I'm on the other end, focusing on 2000 to the Present. As such, you usually won't see me get deeply involved in discussions about the very early years. Unlike with present day, there's just often too much we don't know with that time period, in my opinion. As a result, I don't feel like I've researched things enough about those years to take a hard stance. But the alternative theory is an interesting one.

Since you asked, and I'm not taking a stance one way or the other, here are some things that came to mind when I read it:

First, to establish the Gambinos as being the earliest family in New York (and not the Genovese as the conventional thinking has been) you have to find a clear line of succession. It was hard to see a clear connection between Gaetano Russo and later leaders. It's also hard to find any links between Nicola Taranto and Ignazio Lupo other than they were both Palermantani. But I get that the alternative theory is based on the region/kinship model.

Second, the "House of Lupo" letter and circumstantial conversations between Lupo, Morello, etc. results in inconclusive evidence, in my opinion.

Basically, the alternative theory of the Gambinos being the oldest family ultimately comes down to 1) Lupo succeeding Taranto, and 2) Lupo being separate from Morello. And even if Lupo was separate from Morello, it doesn't matter if clear link of succession with Taranto can't be established. If it can't be established, the Gambino family would either 1) originate from the late 1890's as well (if Lupo separate from Morello) or 2) originate from 1910 (if Morello and Lupo were together and with the D'Aquila breakoff).

Rockford is going to be the same argument taking place in a different city.

In the Family Secrets trial the FBI named Frank Saladino as the Boss of Rockford who died in 2005. Did Calabrese specifically state that? Nothing has come out since then so we don't really know. If asked if it exists currently, my opinion would fall on the WG/Pogo side until info comes out otherwise.

Cavita's from there, he'd be the one to ask and I think he's even doubtful about Saladino holding an actual title.

I wonder if Frank Trent Saladino is of any relation. He's an entrepreneur who dabbled in acting in the 80's (Geno in Sleepaway Camp). I met this guy years ago. And I just seen now he's related to the late great John Saxon.

The Family Secrets case also identified Saladino (one guy, by the way - not "they") as an associate of the Outfit's 26th Street crew. It's already been explained ad nauseum why a guy can be identified as a member, captain, or boss of a family that doesn't exist anymore. Plenty of examples have already been given. I mean, for God's sake, you won't see Rockford on any FBI list of families since the late 1980's.

If someone's automatic assumption is that this means there must be a family there, especially with a family like Rockford, it's because they want a family to be there. PatrickGold wants a family to be there. Just like he and a few others want families to still exist in Cleveland, Kansas City, Los Angeles, etc. They'll deny "caring one way or the other" until they're dying breath but it's obvious they do. It's the worst case of dumbf@ck-itis.

-Second: I don't know where you are getting multi million dollar operation from. They never even got close to a million dollars over a several year period. These guys were strictly small time even by typical small potatoes standards.

He was hoping people wouldn't actually click on the link.

So what do we have so far as families now being argued to still be around despite what the feds say or indictments show?

1. Buffalo
2. Cleveland
3. Kansas City
4. Los Angeles
5. Rockford

Who's next?

Do you think there anything wrong with your life that for the past 20 years you have been on forums arguing about which families are active? And no, I was not a part of those forums but to hear you and the clown say that is entertaining. Your a broken record. You talk about indictments and you had multiple indictments in Buffalo in the last 3 years and you still deny it. I have never been to Buffalo and I know absolutely nothing about Buffalo but the limited articles from indictments and experts that I have read and the UNDERBOSS stating they are still active gives no doubt that they are active. But guess since for the past 20 years (pathetic life) you have been arguing it you mine as well keep the course instead of being a man and admitting your wrong. Rockford you have not layed out any facts or fbi reports, since that is the only thing that you cite Bc you know absolutely NOTHING about Rockford except that is a small city that nobody knows about.

[UTC]

I’m calling it, the next claim will be Birmingham is alive and well. This guy is relentless.

I guess everyone fell for that request to disband ruse.

[UTC]

I think your forgetting that 9 members and associates were indicted around the same time of the family secrets trial for running a multi million dollar bookmaking operation that had been in operation since the early 80’s. So to say there was literally nothing there is not really accurate. Rockford has always been under the radar and tight knit. See article links. All the guys that were arrested are out of jail. They all did minimal time. Joe Saldino is considered by most as the current boss. I don’t know if that is true or not.

-First: None of those arrested were identified as members. They weren't even identified as LCN Associates. From. some of the names we can assume that some of these guys had some connections to LCN but the fact that the article didn't feel the need to even mention it shows how loose and insignificant those connections were.


-Second: I don't know where you are getting multi million dollar operation from. They never even got close to a million dollars over a several year period. These guys were strictly small time even by typical small potatoes standards.

Officials believe the operation, which dated back to the early 1980s, netted more than a half-million dollars over the years and, at times, $2,000 a day.

-Third: You are using a pissant gambling bust with loose LCN ties from 14 years ago to prove that there is still a family in Rockford in 2020.


Pogo

Actually, the prosecutors explicitly said in one of the articles that there is no evidence linking them to an organized crime organization.

[Pogo The Clown]

Actually, the prosecutors explicitly said in one of the articles that there is no evidence linking them to an organized crime organization.

Well there you go. I didn't read the second article but sure enough the prosecutors says it outright. As I suspected these guys only had loose ties to LCN (and as I suspected it was to Chicago and not some Rockford "family").


In the middle of the second page.


https://history.rockfordpubliclibrary.o ... y/?p=51867

[UTC]

That is, the U.S. Attorney and the Interim police chief of Rockford said there was no evidence linking them to a criminal syndicate larger than themselves. I guess one could argue they were the entire local family, but that doesn't seem like the intent of what they were saying.

[Patrickgold]

I think your forgetting that 9 members and associates were indicted around the same time of the family secrets trial for running a multi million dollar bookmaking operation that had been in operation since the early 80’s. So to say there was literally nothing there is not really accurate. Rockford has always been under the radar and tight knit. See article links. All the guys that were arrested are out of jail. They all did minimal time. Joe Saldino is considered by most as the current boss. I don’t know if that is true or not.

-First: None of those arrested were identified as members. They weren't even identified as LCN Associates. From. some of the names we can assume that some of these guys had some connections to LCN but the fact that the article didn't feel the need to even mention it shows how loose and insignificant those connections were.


-Second: I don't know where you are getting multi million dollar operation from. They never even got close to a million dollars over a several year period. These guys were strictly small time even by typical small potatoes standards.

Officials believe the operation, which dated back to the early 1980s, netted more than a half-million dollars over the years and, at times, $2,000 a day.

-Third: You are using a pissant gambling bust with loose LCN ties from 14 years ago to prove that there is still a family in Rockford in 2020.


Pogo

Actually, the prosecutors explicitly said in one of the articles that there is no evidence linking them to an organized crime organization.

The exact term they used is larger organized crime syndicate which I find very confusing Bc they were obviously a criminal organization that had been operating since the 80’s that included, Saladino who was a very well know organized crime member/associate. This gambling organization was discovered while the feds were investigating the family secrets case. I believe they even talk about this in the family secrets book by Cohen. Not sure if maybe they were directed not to say they were connected to the Outfit bc of the judge and they didn’t want it to hurt their case in court. It could also be that they consider the Rockford organization a small organization and couldn’t link it directly to the Chicago Outfit. Maybe Cavita can comment on this since he is the only real expert on Rockford in this forum.

[UTC]

I know what you're saying, Patrick, and I don't pretend to know, but as a practical matter the phraseology used is consistent with saying they're not involved with LCN.

[Patrickgold]

I know what you're saying, Patrick, and I don't pretend to know, but as a practical matter the phraseology used is consistent with saying they're not involved with LCN.

Your right, it sure sounds like that. If they didn’t have documented LCN members/associates in this indictment like Saladino and Frisella then I would even say it was not connected. Bc I will be honest. The younger guys in the indictment, I never heard of them. Rockford has always been a mystery, I think even to the feds. I really don’t think they took them seriously and that is why they have thrived for so long with hardly any indictments. The FBI has barely talked about them. I think it has more to do with there being bigger fish to fry in Chicago, which is only 90 miles away.