Cleveland Crime Family

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Wiseguy
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

Post by Wiseguy »

Chris Christie wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:38 pmNo one said over 30 members, they said 30 members because that's what Violi was recorded saying. For the 2019 case to have happened they were either always there or were reconstituted, either way they're there in 2020. However, if it comes out that Violi was only playing once Todaro sues him for slander and proves he's completely innocent I'll admit the entire story was inflated.
The thing of it is, I agree with you guys and the viability argument most of the time. Let's say someone came in and inquired about Buffalo, my response wouldn't be: "They are just as active as ever. Under Joe Todaro he's beefed up the family to 30 members and counting and is making money not headlines like a true gangster. His territory now extends from Hamilton to Florida." No, instead I'd say: "Since the 1990's the family appeared to be on its last legs, the FBI stopped listed it as an existing group, then in 2018 Violi was picked on wiretaps stating x, y, z which could indicate it's still active. We need to wait for more information but there's some very interesting links with the Bonannos and Montreal." The moment anyone were to say Joe Todaro is a criminal genius who rebuilt the family I'd be on your side asking for sources. I'm open to speculation that this happened, but I'm not about to say it's a fact without sources. This forum, in part to you guys, has a very high bar. Like I previously said, you guys are fighting a battle in the war you've already won.
I'm usually not one for predictions but I continue to maintain we won't get anything remotely that definitive. We had what we did before the Violi bust. The Violi bust (and everything with that) came and went. And now people are waiting for the next shoe to drop but what if it doesn't? What if it's back to what we saw 20 years before Violi came into the scene? Todaro keeps making pizza. Violi sits in prison. No other news about a Buffalo reorganization. No revelations about who these 20 mystery members are. One year slips into the next and slowly the Buffalo bandwagon chorus dies out. Eventually to join the Detroit chorus that we haven't heard from for sometime. Remember them?

That's what is likely going to happen.

Of course, simply because Buffalo is close to Canada, I expect the Buffalo chorus will try to associate them with everything north of the border as much as possible.
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

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Wiseguy wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:43 pm
Chris Christie wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:38 pmNo one said over 30 members, they said 30 members because that's what Violi was recorded saying. For the 2019 case to have happened they were either always there or were reconstituted, either way they're there in 2020. However, if it comes out that Violi was only playing once Todaro sues him for slander and proves he's completely innocent I'll admit the entire story was inflated.
The thing of it is, I agree with you guys and the viability argument most of the time. Let's say someone came in and inquired about Buffalo, my response wouldn't be: "They are just as active as ever. Under Joe Todaro he's beefed up the family to 30 members and counting and is making money not headlines like a true gangster. His territory now extends from Hamilton to Florida." No, instead I'd say: "Since the 1990's the family appeared to be on its last legs, the FBI stopped listed it as an existing group, then in 2018 Violi was picked on wiretaps stating x, y, z which could indicate it's still active. We need to wait for more information but there's some very interesting links with the Bonannos and Montreal." The moment anyone were to say Joe Todaro is a criminal genius who rebuilt the family I'd be on your side asking for sources. I'm open to speculation that this happened, but I'm not about to say it's a fact without sources. This forum, in part to you guys, has a very high bar. Like I previously said, you guys are fighting a battle in the war you've already won.
I'm usually not one for predictions but I continue to maintain we won't get anything remotely that definitive. We had what we did before the Violi bust. The Violi bust (and everything with that) came and went. And now people are waiting for the next shoe to drop but what if it doesn't? What if it's back to what we saw 20 years before Violi came into the scene? Todaro keeps making pizza. Violi sits in prison. No other news about a Buffalo reorganization. No revelations about who these 20 mystery members are. One year slips into the next and slowly the Buffalo bandwagon chorus dies out. Eventually to join the Detroit chorus that we haven't heard from for sometime. Remember them?

That's what is likely going to happen.

Of course, simply because Buffalo is close to Canada, I expect the Buffalo chorus will try to associate them with everything north of the border as much as possible.
I'll respond tomorrow but seriously do you put the gloves on? Given the opportunity you're someone I'd like to put my dukes up against because I think you'd knock me on my ass. I'll get up until I can't but I'll admit you're a formidable mofo. If you don't box I'd suggest taking it up because the neighborhood guys that coined Sammy the Bull for brawling for ownership of his childhood bicycle never witnessed you in a brawl over viability, Holy shit. You'd inspire Toddo Aurello to take his hat off and say he's not viable. Not really but you know what I mean. Have a good night.
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Pogo The Clown
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

Post by Pogo The Clown »

B. wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:58 pm We don't have a lot to go off of as far as precedent goes for dissolving families or forming them.

Dissolving Families

I remember several years back some MF documents were posted that went deep into the process of how Madison disbanded. I'm going from memory so some of my details may be off.


But they had about 10 members left with a Boss and UnderBoss. They got to the point that their level of activity got so low that they got together to vote to disband the family. My memory may be playing tricks on me but I seem to remember that about 2 members (still criminally active?) wanted to continue so were allowed to transfer to the Milwaukee family. I think the formality of the remaining members getting together to vote to disband (or asking NY to do like Birmingham) has gone by the wayside like so many other traditions.


My take way from it was they viewed criminal activity as the basis for their existence and that without it there was no point in being a family so they got together to officially disband. This seems to have been Angelo Lonardo's view when he said there was no family in Clevleand but added that it could come back if some of the members got out of prison and they inducted new members.


Does anyone else remember this? Can anyone post it if they still have it.

Wiseguy wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:43 pm I'm usually not one for predictions but I continue to maintain we won't get anything remotely that definitive. We had what we did before the Violi bust. The Violi bust (and everything with that) came and went. And now people are waiting for the next shoe to drop but what if it doesn't? What if it's back to what we saw 20 years before Violi came into the scene? Todaro keeps making pizza. Violi sits in prison. No other news about a Buffalo reorganization. No revelations about who these 20 mystery members are. One year slips into the next and slowly the Buffalo bandwagon chorus dies out. Eventually to join the Detroit chorus that we haven't heard from for sometime. Remember them?

That's what is likely going to happen.

Of course, simply because Buffalo is close to Canada, I expect the Buffalo chorus will try to associate them with everything north of the border as much as possible.

And by the time that happens we'll be on to discussing if Chicago, NJ and NE are viable families and the whole process will start again. :mrgreen:


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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

Post by Uncle Pete »

Pogo The Clown wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:30 pm More recently we have Gene Borello (not a member but knee deep in the life who likely would have gotten made if he hadn't gone to prison) saying that the Colombos "were barely a family". Now obviously he was exaggerating but I'll bet he is simply echoing the prevailing perception of the members and associates he was around on the street. I don't think he would be alone in that view. If we somehow were able to read the minds of the average wiseguy on the streets of NY, NJ and Philly I don't they would would consider a few old retired members in KC, LA, Cleveland or Buffalo a family like they think of themselves as a family.


Pogo

I get your point particularly because I do believe that Gene was exaggerating / trolling and I honestly agree with you about the other families. But when it comes to Gene, I actually think of him more so as an example of someone “knee deep” in the life whose expertise is limited to his crew and his neighborhood with little knowledge of other families or crews other than street gossip.

If you were to listen to him, the Colombo’s were “barely a family” and the Genovese family “don’t do no violence”. Now, if he’s echoing the perception of the street, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the perception is reality. Perception is subjective and I’m sure there are guys in Dyker Heights who would have different thoughts on the Colombo’s and guys from the Bronx that would have a different opinion of the West Side. The perception held by the Howard Beach Bonnano’s regarding the Genovese family and their willingness to commit violence does not define the Genovese family’s willingness to commit violence.

Either way, Gene’s statements on other families in the same city as him doesn’t seem to be based on anything other than street gossip and shit talk.

Maybe Gene will reveal more in his book but from what I’ve seen of him, it seems that all he really knew was Howard Beach, and even there, he is a legend in his own mind. His status as an associate of the Howard Beach Bonnanos doesn’t really seem to have given him the expertise to speak on the structure or mentality of other crews or families. At least I haven’t seen much of it watching any of his interviews/podcasts.
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

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Pogo The Clown wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:43 pm
B. wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:56 pm Franzese out of the loop by the early 1990s at the latest. I know he has had contact with his father in recent years, though I would question whether his father was telling him, "You know what, rat boy? There are only 9 families left."

Franzese's number of families matches the FBI's number because he got it from the FBI. He isn't an insider on the mafia of the past 30 years and unless he says he received this number in the 1980s we can figure he read about it in the same place we all did.
Chris Christie wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:14 pm He became an informant in 1988 an was cut off from the organization after that point. He still kept in touch with his father but who knows to what extent they still spoke about current events. After being off the street for 40 years he likely keeps up to date with current events the same way we do. You want me to try and ask him? Worst he can do is tell me to go find God.

That is not really the point though. You guys are arguing that families exist until they officially disband and that any city that has a recognized LCN member constitutes a family. Well obviously Franzese didn't subscribe to that notion and he as a a high ranking member with a high ranking father as a member. Same with Angelo Lonardo. Lonardo could have easily answered the senators question that "yes the LCN family is still in Clevleand" but he didn't. He very clearly stated that there was no family there despite knowing there were still a dozen living members, some with titles and some with contacts to NY.


Pogo
depsite the feds saying there is no cleveland family , how come they reconize the borgata during there investagations from 2013 ?
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

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Pogo The Clown wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:57 pm I remember several years back some MF documents were posted that went deep into the process of how Madison disbanded. I'm going from memory so some of my details may be off.

But they had about 10 members left with a Boss and UnderBoss. They got to the point that their level of activity got so low that they got together to vote to disband the family. My memory may be playing tricks on me but I seem to remember that about 2 members (still criminally active?) wanted to continue so were allowed to transfer to the Milwaukee family. I think the formality of the remaining members getting together to vote to disband (or asking NY to do like Birmingham) has gone by the wayside like so many other traditions.

My take way from it was they viewed criminal activity as the basis for their existence and that without it there was no point in being a family so they got together to officially disband. This seems to have been Angelo Lonardo's view when he said there was no family in Clevleand but added that it could come back if some of the members got out of prison and they inducted new members.
Awesome, that's a great example. Totally slipped my mind.

I can only find an online write-up about it, but the source was Milwaukee member informant Augie Maniaci:

This was all perhaps for naught on the part of the FBI as federal informants continually pointed out that although Caputo was the undisputed boss, he was a boss of a family that was more or less inactive since the 1940s. Interestingly, a May 21, 1973 FBI report detailed a conversation that a Milwaukee informant (made member Augie Maniaci) had with Rockford members Charles Vince, Frank Correnti, Phil Emordeno, Sebastian Gulotta, Joe Maggio and Phil Priola regarding the Madison LCN. Charles Vince, who was Rockford’s capo, told Maniaci that the Madison family had recently disbanded by vote. Two of the members voted to keep the family intact while the rest voted against it. The family did indeed disband and the two who voted in favor ended up joining the Milwaukee family. Maniaci then told his FBI handlers that the dissolution of the Madison family didn’t surprise him because, “they haven’t had anything but bad breath and armpits going for them for more than ten years.”

I've seen similar accounts of Madison being mostly criminally inactive basically since post-prohibition period. I'm sure lack of criminal activity played a role, as we know that is a large part of what these families do, though it doesn't say what the exact motivation was for a formal break-up. Maniaci heard it second-hand from the Rockford member and this excerpt doesn't say anything specific about Madison's internal reasoning. Maybe there is more in the original report if we find it.

Things to consider:

- The same informant, Augie Maniaci, told the FBI in 1965 that Frank Balistrieri told him he now had "authority" over the Madison family, but Maniaci felt this would require Chicago's approval.

- In 1968, Maniaci told the FBI that Balistrieri had tried to take over the Madison family in 1966, was unsuccessful, and that Madison was now under the Chicago family while still remaining a standalone family with their own boss.

- The Chicago connection in both accounts makes sense, as in other reports Maniaci told the FBI the Madison leadership were originally Chicago members in the 1920s.

I'm sure lack of activity played a role, though Madison may have voted to disband to avoid Balistrieri's attempts to meddle with them. The two Madison members who went with Milwaukee wouldn't have required Milwaukee's approval to engage in criminal activity, so it's more likely they supported Balistrieri's earlier attempts to influence Madison. Typically outside attempts to influence a family also have some support from the inside, so without deeper info this is one possibility. There were issues between Madison and Milwaukee, so it makes sense why most members wouldn't have been assigned to them.

Because only two members transferred to Milwaukee, where did the other members go? No affiliation? Birmingham was allegedly placed under Tom Gagliano decades earlier, then retired Frank Valenti was placed with LA by the Commission over a decade later. The other ex-Madison members would still need formal assignment regardless of their activity level and we know two members were re-assigned. It's likely they belonged to Chicago, who Maniaci said already controlled the family in 1968 and where Caputo, Aiello, and others had already been members in the 1920s.

A decision to formally disband a family would be a political decision. On a practical level, Madison had been "inactive" for many years and no sources disagree, so it doesn't make sense that they would suddenly decide to disband because of no criminal activity. If we look at the years leading up to Madison's break-up, we see they wanted to be left alone but were part of a political struggle between Milwaukee and Chicago. Breaking up ensured they'd be left out of it.

Another reason could be by 1973 there had been over a decade of intense FBI scrutiny, media coverage, and it was well-known that the US mafia had been infiltrated by informants. The Godfather had also come out the year previous. Bosses of similarly low-key families like San Francisco and San Jose had nervous breakdowns in the years leading up to this. Given Madison had little interest in the operational side of mafia activity for decades, they may have decided all of this external scrutiny wasn't worth it.

- It's surprising San Francisco didn't vote to disband. James Lanza ordered his members not to engage in criminal activity and he refused to meet anyone but his underboss. This continued throughout the 1970s and there was virtually no activity but they remained a family. Anthony Lima did want to become boss again and resume inducting members, though he was also an FBI informant.

- Joe Cerrito behaved similarly to Lanza in San Jose. San Jose still had more influence from other US families, though, which likely influenced them to stay together and remain slightly more "active" than SF.

Super glad you remembered Madison. It shows that the process of disbanding from within was a formal process that was voted on and resulted in at least some re-assignments. I suspect it had to do with Balistrieri, the politics between Milwaukee and Chicago, and LE/public scrutiny, though again maybe the original report has more on their internal reasoning.

I don't know that we can assume what various families have done or didn't do without similar reports. We have Madison taking a very formal approach to disbanding, while San Francisco remained a family even though they were in a similar state to Madison. Five years earlier New Orleans may have had as few as five members but decided to induct new members rather than disband or die out. There doesn't seem to be one single motivation or set of circumstance that motivates a small, dwindling family to disband vs. stay together or even induct new members.
Last edited by B. on Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:10 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

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Chris Christie wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:53 pmI'll respond tomorrow but seriously do you put the gloves on? Given the opportunity you're someone I'd like to put my dukes up against because I think you'd knock me on my ass. I'll get up until I can't but I'll admit you're a formidable mofo. If you don't box I'd suggest taking it up because the neighborhood guys that coined Sammy the Bull for brawling for ownership of his childhood bicycle never witnessed you in a brawl over viability, Holy shit. You'd inspire Toddo Aurello to take his hat off and say he's not viable. Not really but you know what I mean. Have a good night.
I did some of that when I was younger but, at this point, I'm a middle aged guy with a wife, kids, and lower back problems.
Stroccos wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:49 pmdepsite the feds saying there is no cleveland family , how come they reconize the borgata during there investagations from 2013 ?
Again, context.

That passage is referring to two members (of which there are only a few still alive) or associates of a defunct family, not a currently existing one. When D'Elia was literally the last man standing in Northeast PA, he could still be referred to as a member of the Bufalino family even though the family was long gone.
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

Post by Pogo The Clown »

That is a common practice. We have seen the Feds refer to a family that they have long considered extinct whenever they indict a remnant. It has happened with Cleveland, Scranton, Buffalo, KC, Rockford and Rochester.


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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

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Wiseguy wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:57 pm I did some of that when I was younger but, at this point, I'm a middle aged guy with a wife, kids, and lower back problems.
I hear you, tendinitis ended that for me along with racketball tournaments at LA Fitness.
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

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Pogo The Clown wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:54 pm That is a common practice. We have seen the Feds refer to a family that they have long considered extinct whenever they indict a remnant. It has happened with Cleveland, Scranton, Buffalo, KC, Rockford and Rochester.


Pogo
Also a common practice is you having to repeat this fact over and over again because people around here have short memories.
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

Post by Angelo Santino »

Maybe we need to start another thread comparing/contrasting the similarities/differences between The Mafia/La Cosa Nostra and other criminal organizations. Where they are alike and where they are different. The Mafia is a criminal organization but is not just a criminal organization, it is a subculture, it has lineage, it has history. Anybody right now could start up a criminal organization and give ourselves a Mafia chain of command, other groups have like the Black Mafia Family had a Boss and Underboss in their ranks. They were gone after a generation while the mafia has been in this country for 170 years with the same structure and modus operandi. Maybe, just maybe there's a little more to it than mere criminality for the sake of being criminals.

Are you both interested in such a new thread? We'll (continue to) leave our egos at the door and debate the facts and cite everything with sources if possible (honestly, if either of you made a claim about so and so or this or that, I would not think you were lying. I trust you both to be honest and hopefully likewise). I enjoy the back and forth. Your holding the lion makes helps me refine, think out and make better arguments (which is why we were kinda disappointed when neither of you had any challenges to what we published in 2014. We wrote that and sourced it like we were training for a debate with the likes of you. And it lead to a stronger, fact driven, carefully sourced piece of work. We wrote it 6 years ago and its so far withstood the test of time. If you want to help me I'd implore you to find flaws in the article.)

I can have disagreed with you both but I consider you trustworthy and genuine and hopefully you feel the same for me and B. We're all students striving for a deeper understanding and debates aside, the respect is always there. Salut.
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

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Pogo The Clown wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:54 pm That is a common practice. We have seen the Feds refer to a family that they have long considered extinct whenever they indict a remnant. It has happened with Cleveland, Scranton, Buffalo, KC, Rockford and Rochester.


Pogo
Rockford is far from extinct.
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

Post by Pogo The Clown »

Yeah they are quietly lurking in the shadows and under the radar. Thankfully you are here to tell us all about them.


Pogo
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

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Pogo The Clown wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:10 pm Yeah they are quietly lurking in the shadows and under the radar. Thankfully you are here to tell us all about them.


Pogo
They are not lurking anywhere. They are out in the open. Your limited knowledge of most of the cities that you write about has shown numerous times that you are wrong that these criminal organizations are dead. Your even going as far now to say that there are cases where the Feds indict remnants of family and still call it a family in the indictment but they are really defunct. So that deflects the evidence that you always ask for and are given. Just confused on your thinking. Your all about fbi indictments but now they don’t matter?
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Re: Cleveland Crime Family

Post by Pogo The Clown »

And you are no doubt out there observing all these out in the open Rockford family mobsters. Maybe even watching them holding meetings in restuarants and knowing what they order. Maybe even getting juicy inside knowledge from having gone to school with all of their kids.


Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
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