Cleveland Crime Family

[Angelo Santino]

Thanks. That worked.

Wording is strange. "An LA Family." It came out in 2017 that Todaro of Buffalo was upset about not being informed. Makes it sound recent, not like something that occurred a decade ago.

Not sure what "LA family" they're talking about but it sure as hell wasn't the Los Angeles LCN family. Take that report with an aircraft carrier full of salt.

Whoever the hell the new poster is who's starting topics on various families needs to start the Los Angeles Crime Family thread NOW because it'll be 200 pages in a month! In the words of Samuel L Jackson:


J/K, I don't know, bo, I'm not jumping to any conclusions or speculations at this point. It's interesting, all I can say.

Happy Saturday, may Sunday be a downright amazing day for you and your family. Thank you for being a formidable back and forth, broheim. Salut.

[Antiliar]

Thanks. That worked.

Wording is strange. "An LA Family." It came out in 2017 that Todaro of Buffalo was upset about not being informed. Makes it sound recent, not like something that occurred a decade ago.

Not sure what "LA family" they're talking about but it sure as hell wasn't the Los Angeles LCN family. Take that report with an aircraft carrier full of salt.

General rules of thumb:

1. Keep an open mind.
2. Follow the evidence, even if it takes you somewhere you don't think you should go.
3. Be prepared to upgrade or change your theories based on new facts and evidence.
4. Don't assume facts not in evidence.
5. Remember that correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
6. Question and be skeptical of everything.

[B.]

If the information is reliable, it would be an LA Cosa Nostra family given that Buffalo Cosa Nostra boss Todaro is alleged to have been concerned about membership protocol in his area (Ontario). It's easier to believe the historic LA family made at least one new member than it is to believe a brand new Cosa Nostra family was established in LA. Especially since we know Milano's alleged underboss Tommy Gambino (who would be a candidate for current boss if they have one) has strong ties to the current Gambino leadership and the boss of Torretta, which points to further networking potential.

It's not as if the earlier LA family ever had a strong recruitment base. The California mafia families in general relied heavily on transfers and national networking. If there is something left there, it likely follows in that mold. Kind of like the culture of Los Angeles in general -- if you've ever been there, it feels like nobody you meet is from there.

Accursio Dimino discussed the idea of putting slot machines in Montreal but said he couldn't because the Ribera mafia was already working with the Rizzuto-connected crew there and suggested California instead. Who would he contact about that? I can't answer that myself, but Tommy Gambino is certainly a candidate given his ties to the Sicilian mafia. If a Sicilian mafia boss was discussing connections to Canada and California, it's not difficult to believe a Canadian figure like Iavarone might have ties to California. It's not a slam dunk and I'm not going to broadcast it as a definitive fact, though I question what incentive a Canadian LE officer and journalist would have in claiming a murdered Ontario mafia figure was made in Los Angeles. Usually the more questionable Canadian coverage claims that everyone is a "don" of their own "family" up there, which is not supported by known info.

I just love that the article references both the LA family being active and Todaro being involved. It's like the article was written to upset Wiseguy. I agree with him that we shouldn't take one article and update the LA family's Wikipedia page (maybe MafiaWiki), but to completely block out the possibility is disingenuous in my opinion, especially considering the increase in international mafia networking that has been evidenced in recent cases.

[Wiseguy]

General rules of thumb:

1. Keep an open mind.
2. Follow the evidence, even if it takes you somewhere you don't think you should go.
3. Be prepared to upgrade or change your theories based on new facts and evidence.
4. Don't assume facts not in evidence.
5. Remember that correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
6. Question and be skeptical of everything.

Problem is, this can result in a neverending cycle of what if's, maybe's, and could be's. You never arrive at any certainties or conclusions even when they exist.

As far as there being no LCN family left in Los Angeles, that's as certain as the sun coming up tomorrow. Anyone who has to question that...in 2020...has some major catching up to do.

If the information is reliable, it would be an LA Cosa Nostra family given that Buffalo Cosa Nostra boss Todaro is alleged to have been concerned about membership protocol in his area (Ontario). It's easier to believe the historic LA family made at least one new member than it is to believe a brand new Cosa Nostra family was established in LA. Especially since we know Milano's alleged underboss Tommy Gambino (who would certainly be a candidate for current boss) has strong ties to the current Gambino leadership and the boss of Torretta, which points to further networking potential.

Accursio Dimino discussed the idea of putting slot machines in Montreal but said he couldn't because the Ribera mafia was already there and suggested California instead. Who would he contact about that? I can't answer that myself, but Tommy Gambino is certainly a candidate given his ties to the Sicilian mafia. If a Sicilian mafia boss was discussing connections to Canada and California, it's not difficult to believe a Canadian figure like Iavarone might have ties to California. It's not a slam dunk and I'm not going to broadcast it as a definitive fact, though I question what incentive a Canadian LE officer and journalist would have in claiming a murdered Ontario mafia figure was made in Los Angeles. Usually the more questionable Canadian coverage claims are that everyone is a "don" of their own "family" up there, which is not supported by known info.

I just love that the article references both the LA family being active and Todaro being involved. It's like the article was written to upset Wiseguy. I agree with him that we shouldn't take one article and update the LA family's Wikipedia page (maybe MafiaWiki), but to completely block out the possibility is disingenuous in my opinion, especially considering the increase in international mafia networking that has been evidenced in recent cases.

All things considered, it's most likely just an article with bad info all around. It's unreliable on it's face.

Some here seem slow to write a family off no matter how much evidence there is; while they jump at even the slightest, most implausible suggestion of a family still existing or bouncing back.

[CabriniGreen]

I clicked view source:

"Albert was a real estate agent and entrepreneur. He was known to police before his death because of associations with people involved in traditional organized crime. He did not have a criminal record."

"The Iavarones were thought to be allies of the Musitano crime family in the 1990s, but by the time of Albert's murder they were not. The Iavarone name comes up several times in the transcript of wiretap conversations recorded by police in Project Otremens. The RCMP-led, joint forces investigation led to the imprisonment of Joey and Dom Violi for fentanyl trafficking and included a high-level turncoat who recorded conversations as a paid police agent. The brothers pleaded guilty, so the information in the court documents was never tested in court."

"On June 30, 2017 the police agent talks about A Iavarone (believed to be Albert) being "straightened out" with an L.A. Family and that Joe Todaro was mad about not being told this. Being "straightened out" is a term used when a man is initiated as "made" Mafia member."

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/thesp ... =195082890

This paid police agent IS Morena, correct?

Could B. be on to something, with an " L.A. family" being a reference to a Sicilian cell?

Thing is, is Ivarone sicilian? Would the Gambinos make a non family member into their network?

The idea of membership as a kinda bastardized union card..... this is an interesting idea. I think I had a similar but inarticulate idea along the same lines...... I lacked this specific analogy.....

One COULD view the Mafia as part bastardized Union, they even have different " types" of unions.... Gambling, Loans, Drugs, Scams, ect.... similar idea as far as their corrupt masonic lodges.....interesting....

[Patrickgold]

Thanks. That worked.

Wording is strange. "An LA Family." It came out in 2017 that Todaro of Buffalo was upset about not being informed. Makes it sound recent, not like something that occurred a decade ago.

Not sure what "LA family" they're talking about but it sure as hell wasn't the Los Angeles LCN family. Take that report with an aircraft carrier full of salt.

Oh course we should disregard it. It goes against everything you stand for. But we will all listen to all the articles you believe are credible. As long as you give the approval.

[B.]

I clicked view source:

"Albert was a real estate agent and entrepreneur. He was known to police before his death because of associations with people involved in traditional organized crime. He did not have a criminal record."

"The Iavarones were thought to be allies of the Musitano crime family in the 1990s, but by the time of Albert's murder they were not. The Iavarone name comes up several times in the transcript of wiretap conversations recorded by police in Project Otremens. The RCMP-led, joint forces investigation led to the imprisonment of Joey and Dom Violi for fentanyl trafficking and included a high-level turncoat who recorded conversations as a paid police agent. The brothers pleaded guilty, so the information in the court documents was never tested in court."

"On June 30, 2017 the police agent talks about A Iavarone (believed to be Albert) being "straightened out" with an L.A. Family and that Joe Todaro was mad about not being told this. Being "straightened out" is a term used when a man is initiated as "made" Mafia member."

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/thesp ... =195082890

This paid police agent IS Morena, correct?

Could B. be on to something, with an " L.A. family" being a reference to a Sicilian cell?

Thing is, is Ivarone sicilian? Would the Gambinos make a non family member into their network?

The idea of membership as a kinda bastardized union card..... this is an interesting idea. I think I had a similar but inarticulate idea along the same lines...... I lacked this specific analogy.....

One COULD view the Mafia as part bastardized Union, they even have different " types" of unions.... Gambling, Loans, Drugs, Scams, ect.... similar idea as far as their corrupt masonic lodges.....interesting....

Haha, just to clarify, I'm not saying anything about the Los Angeles family being a Sicilian "cell". Tommaso Gambino is a made member of the LA Cosa Nostra family. We know American Cosa Nostra is still recognized by Sicilian Cosa Nostra and that Gambino's father is a member in Sicily who was arrested last year with the boss of Passo di Rigano (a relative of the Gambinos) and his cousin who is a member of the NYC Gambino family (which Tommaso's uncle John was helping run until his death). They are all Cosa Nostra members who are part of one of the strongest modern American->Sicilian networks, which could factor into whatever Tommy Gambino tries to do in LA, especially given that Accursio Dimino referenced California during the slot machine conversation.

Tommaso Gambino was identified by LE in a congressional hearing as the underboss to Pete Milano in Los Angeles, who was of Calabrese descent. There haven't been ethnic preferences in US families for decades now, though of course the Sicilian "zip" element appears to prefer their own. Anyone made in Los Angeles would be an American Cosa Nostra member, like Tommaso's relatives in NYC.

The biggest question is if Iavarone has any known ties to Los Angeles. We heard rumors that Frank Cali (another relative of Tommaso Gambino) had ins with Calabrians and may have touched base in Canada, though I don't remember anything substantial about that.

And you know, I didn't think about whether the police agent referred to Morena. That would make sense. He must have acquired way more information than the little bit that leaked out during the Violi trial. Good observation.

EDIT: Excuse me, I've been posting in this thread that it was the boss of Torretta who was arrested with Tommaso's father Rosario -- I meant the boss of Passo di Rigano. Figures from Torretta were arrested, too, and that town has close ties to this group as well, including Lorenzo Mannino.

[Angelo Santino]

I think I recall some article or memo which stated the Milanos were recruiting Sicilians with Mafia connections. It was a while ago (late 90's/early 2000's and I never gave much credence to it. (My mind has been playing tricks on me and I can't find the source for this now.)

I wonder if there could be any correlation between Milano's meeting with DiLeonardo and Gambino being made underboss. If they were formally retired and done, why put someone in that position? We know there's no Crime Family there in the way we perceive one to be, which leads me to suspect some symbolism in promoting Gambino to under. It wasn't done simply for the hell of it.

Carmen Milano cooperated in 1998 and according to Kenji, Milano never replaced him. 2006 I believe is when we first heard about Tommy Gambino holding rank in LA. I didn't know that it came out officially, I thought it was an online rumor.

Another factor in LA are the amount of its members who were more legitimate than not. This group had more than a few attorney members, I think Rosario DeSimone (Frank's father) was a doctor. Gallo once said of LA: "They dabble in crime, they're not gangsters." Individuals like Fratianno or Gallo could never understand it, to them a gangster is a criminal who goes out and steals, Gallo proudly boasted that he didn't work a job for 20 years but lived a playboy lifestyle. That is his measuring tool for what constitutes a true gangster. On his blog he constantly trashed Pete Milano, once even saying if he found out Milano had 10k on him he'd go up and steal it from him (echoing Gene Borrello in NY). Towards the end he changed his tune and commended Milano on dying free and relatively wealthy.

So this Iavarone with his business background and lack of a criminal record, is kinda reflective of the type of members that made up LA in the 20th century. Aside from a few colorful characters, It was mostly a family of sleepy housecats.

[scagghiuni]

I think I recall some article or memo which stated the Milanos were recruiting Sicilians with Mafia connections. It was a while ago (late 90's/early 2000's and I never gave much credence to it. (My mind has been playing tricks on me so maybe I made this up too. I can't find any source for it now.)

I wonder if there could be any correlation between Milano's meeting with DiLeonardo and Gambino being made underboss. If they were formally retired and done, why put someone in that position? We know there's no Crime Family there in the way we perceive one to be, which leads me to suspect some symbolism in promoting Gambino to under. It wasn't done simply for the hell of it.

Carmen Milano cooperated in 1998 and according to Kenji, Milano never replaced him. 2006 I believe is when we first heard about Tommy Gambino holding rank in LA. I didn't know that it came out officially, I thought it was an online rumor.

Another factor in LA are the amount of its members who were more legitimate than not. This group had more than a few attorney members, I think Rosario DeSimone (Frank's father) was a doctor. Gallo once said of LA: "They dabble in crime, they're not gangsters." Individuals like Fratianno or Gallo could never understand it, to them a gangster is a criminal who goes out and steals, Gallo proudly boasted that he didn't work a job for 20 years but lived a playboy lifestyle. That is his measuring tool for what constitutes a true gangster. On his blog he constantly trashed Pete Milano, once even saying if he found out Milano had 10k on him he'd go up and steal it from him (echoing Gene Borrello in NY). Towards the end he changed his tune and commended Milano on dying free and relatively wealthy.

So this Iavarone with his business background and lack of a criminal record, is kinda reflective of the type of members that made up LA in the 20th century. Aside from a few colorful characters, It was mostly a family of sleepy housecats.

the sicilian mafia (but also the ndrangheta) copied masonic rituals and life-style, some crime family even in italy seems more a masonic lodge than a criminal gang, it is also the reason somebody thinks it's dead etc. they think it's a gang costantly involved in drug trafficking or in broad daylight shootings but it's a different thing

[Angelo Santino]

the sicilian mafia (but also the ndrangheta) copied masonic rituals and life-style, some crime family even in italy seems more a masonic lodge than a criminal gang, it is also the reason somebody thinks it's dead etc. they think it's a gang costantly involved in drug trafficking or in broad daylight shootings but it's a different thing

Yes, and the mentality doesn't correlate with the "gangster mentality" of a Fratianno/Gallo. I think most, if given a choice, would prefer to head a successful business and keep their affiliation out of the limelight rather than be known as a crime boss who has no employment. One rule that Provenzano had typed up was "avoiding social clubs," after "the ten mafia commandments" overhype came out, Franzese did a documentary going through each rule, on the one about avoiding public places and clubs he paused and said: "All of our business is done in social clubs so I don't know where that one came from."

We've seen members/associates like Gallo, Fratianno, Alite, Borello and others who hold grudges against these so-called "do nothings" because they had to work their way up and prove they could handle their positions, while preference is show to sons, relatives, Sicilians who are given the position with the expectation that they'll grow into it. It's these reoccurring families of generational involvement that keep the organization going, regardless if the street guys like them or not.

The 1850's and 60's is when we first start getting glimpses of Sicilian Mafia leaders and, unlike bosses in other groups, Sicilians generally were from respectable families, middle class and had a lack of criminal records, they were however aggressive at taking over local industries. It totally counters the argument that criminality is a result of poverty which most gangs reflect. Most crime bosses come from the worst neighborhoods and have the worst backgrounds. Sicilian Mafiosi do not. That's part of what I mean when I say that this is more than just a criminal gang.

[Wiseguy]

Oh course we should disregard it. It goes against everything you stand for. But we will all listen to all the articles you believe are credible. As long as you give the approval.

Not me. What law enforcement says. What organized crime experts say. What indictments show.

Anyone who has even a moderate understanding of the modern-day LCN should be able to immediately recognize a problem with anything saying there is an active LCN family making new members in LA today.

For those who wonder why some of us sound like broken records about certain topics, posters like you and some others here are precisely why. Left unchecked, your complete ignorance about the mob will quickly result in the horseshit piling high and deep on this forum.

Carmen Milano cooperated in 1998 and according to Kenji, Milano never replaced him. 2006 I believe is when we first heard about Tommy Gambino holding rank in LA. I didn't know that it came out officially, I thought it was an online rumor.

It was first reported in the Los Angeles Times (citing law enforcement sources) in 2001 and then cited by a Congressional Hearing in 2004.

[Angelo Santino]

Carmen Milano cooperated in 1998 and according to Kenji, Milano never replaced him. 2006 I believe is when we first heard about Tommy Gambino holding rank in LA. I didn't know that it came out officially, I thought it was an online rumor.

It was first reported in the Los Angeles Times (citing law enforcement sources) in 2001 and then cited by a Congressional Hearing in 2004.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

[Stroccos]

Here's the Rudy Fratto indictment, but it doesn't name the Cleveland guys:
http://americannewspost.com/docs/jfosco ... ronemo.pdf

Individual B is jack cerone
Russel Papalardo and I believe Sam Lucarelli Are the Cleveland guys

[Stroccos]

Question... earlier I stated that two individuals were made in LA after Milano had passed. I can't locate that source. If no one knows what I'm talking about then perhaps I'm confused or mistaken? Thanks.

I'd also like to know who claimed that. Milano died in 2012 and I highly doubt anyone was getting made in LA by that point.

Yeah, I have to retract that.

There are two individuals according from two separate sources who are LA members but I'll let B. explain it, it's not my information and I already muddled it. Sorry for the confusion.

This could like how Angelo lonardo allegedly had his brother made in buffalo because the books where closed in Cleveland

One of la Former members lives in Cleveland area russel massetta

[Angelo Santino]

Question... earlier I stated that two individuals were made in LA after Milano had passed. I can't locate that source. If no one knows what I'm talking about then perhaps I'm confused or mistaken? Thanks.

I'd also like to know who claimed that. Milano died in 2012 and I highly doubt anyone was getting made in LA by that point.

Yeah, I have to retract that.

There are two individuals according from two separate sources who are LA members but I'll let B. explain it, it's not my information and I already muddled it. Sorry for the confusion.

This could like how Angelo lonardo allegedly had his brother made in buffalo because the books where closed in Cleveland

It's possible.

DiLeonardo claims New York got around the membership ban in the 50's-70's by sending people to other cities to work, get made and transfer back to New York. We have evidence of Detroit and Cleveland doing this but NY was a new one to me. I never thought about it before but it makes sense, it's just nice to have someone in a position to confirm it.