Chicago and the Camorra

[Grouchy Sinatra]

IMO, New York didn't care what titles or even how the Chicago Outfit was structured. All the Genovese Family cared about was how they were going to make money with Chicago & that Chicago would "vote their way" on the Commission.

Rarely do I agree with Confederate.

The rules and traditions were deferred to when necessary (or convenient), but money was the ultimate factor since the Commission was formed.

[PolackTony]

This also further confirms the territorial boss theory and also the theory that the Outfit never had a "consigliere", or in other words, they continued to operate in almost the same manner even when Capone became the boss, meaning he was at the top with Ricca right beneath him, and since he had the whole city for himself, he possibly divided it in the old Chicago underworld tradition, meaning the city was always divided on territories, and in Capones case i strongly believe that he created four factions, or those same already existing previous factions which he managed to unite with or without force, north, west, south and the heights.

I definitely buy the idea that their crews were always more or less defined by territory, but I'm not understanding what confirms that Chicago never had a consigliere. It's certainly possible, as Stefano Magaddino was a boss since the early 1920s and was recorded saying he never had a consigliere, plus other groups seem to have gone without consiglieri, especially later.

For me, the only thing that would confirm that they never had a consigliere would be a member source saying those exact words, like Magaddino did: "Chicago never had a consigliere." Otherwise it's just too hard to know without an inside member source explicitly commenting on the position.

I agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be any definitive info indicating that they DID have a consigliere, either. The consigliere is also a somewhat amorphous position and informants have described it ranging from an ineffective senior member with little influence to someone equal in power to the boss, so without someone commenting on it directly it's almost impossible to figure out as an outsider. It's a position that tends to be almost entirely related to mafia politics and not the functional "organized crime" / racketeering side of the group so even more than positions like boss and underboss it requires a member source.

Re-posting this section of B.'s recent post from the "Capone and the Mafia" thread, as it's relevant to the question of how comparable Chicago's senior advisor/"boss emeritus" role was to various ways that the consigliere position may have functioned in other families.

[Villain]

This also further confirms the territorial boss theory and also the theory that the Outfit never had a "consigliere", or in other words, they continued to operate in almost the same manner even when Capone became the boss, meaning he was at the top with Ricca right beneath him, and since he had the whole city for himself, he possibly divided it in the old Chicago underworld tradition, meaning the city was always divided on territories, and in Capones case i strongly believe that he created four factions, or those same already existing previous factions which he managed to unite with or without force, north, west, south and the heights.

I definitely buy the idea that their crews were always more or less defined by territory, but I'm not understanding what confirms that Chicago never had a consigliere. It's certainly possible, as Stefano Magaddino was a boss since the early 1920s and was recorded saying he never had a consigliere, plus other groups seem to have gone without consiglieri, especially later.

For me, the only thing that would confirm that they never had a consigliere would be a member source saying those exact words, like Magaddino did: "Chicago never had a consigliere." Otherwise it's just too hard to know without an inside member source explicitly commenting on the position.

I agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be any definitive info indicating that they DID have a consigliere, either. The consigliere is also a somewhat amorphous position and informants have described it ranging from an ineffective senior member with little influence to someone equal in power to the boss, so without someone commenting on it directly it's almost impossible to figure out as an outsider. It's a position that tends to be almost entirely related to mafia politics and not the functional "organized crime" / racketeering side of the group so even more than positions like boss and underboss it requires a member source.

Re-posting this section of B.'s recent post from the "Capone and the Mafia" thread, as it's relevant to the question of how comparable Chicago's senior advisor/"boss emeritus" role was to various ways that the consigliere position may have functioned in other families.

I think i just showed you at least a dozen of files or member sources regarding Chicagos top boss position and semi-retired position....do you want to see a chat between Accardo, Ricca and Alex in which the Greek asks Joe B about when he is going to put down the "contracts"? A consigliere being in charge of "contracts"? Thats a tough one but im sure that in the end you will again find a way to make the situation questionable....

[Confederate]

This also further confirms the territorial boss theory and also the theory that the Outfit never had a "consigliere", or in other words, they continued to operate in almost the same manner even when Capone became the boss, meaning he was at the top with Ricca right beneath him, and since he had the whole city for himself, he possibly divided it in the old Chicago underworld tradition, meaning the city was always divided on territories, and in Capones case i strongly believe that he created four factions, or those same already existing previous factions which he managed to unite with or without force, north, west, south and the heights.

I definitely buy the idea that their crews were always more or less defined by territory, but I'm not understanding what confirms that Chicago never had a consigliere. It's certainly possible, as Stefano Magaddino was a boss since the early 1920s and was recorded saying he never had a consigliere, plus other groups seem to have gone without consiglieri, especially later.

For me, the only thing that would confirm that they never had a consigliere would be a member source saying those exact words, like Magaddino did: "Chicago never had a consigliere." Otherwise it's just too hard to know without an inside member source explicitly commenting on the position.

I agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be any definitive info indicating that they DID have a consigliere, either. The consigliere is also a somewhat amorphous position and informants have described it ranging from an ineffective senior member with little influence to someone equal in power to the boss, so without someone commenting on it directly it's almost impossible to figure out as an outsider. It's a position that tends to be almost entirely related to mafia politics and not the functional "organized crime" / racketeering side of the group so even more than positions like boss and underboss it requires a member source.

Re-posting this section of B.'s recent post from the "Capone and the Mafia" thread, as it's relevant to the question of how comparable Chicago's senior advisor/"boss emeritus" role was to various ways that the consigliere position may have functioned in other families.

Nick Calabrese's testimony proved it. I don't understand the point of going round & round about something that the Outfit themselves never cared about mentioning. It's just a bunch of "Sicilian Mental Masturbating" at this point. Nick Calabrese testified the structure & never mentioned the word "Consigliere". If it was THAT important, he would have mentioned it because he mentioned everything else about the hierarchy. Only outsiders like us in 2020 would continue obsessing over it. If Al Capone could read some of these postings, he would be laughing in his grave.

[Villain]

This also further confirms the territorial boss theory and also the theory that the Outfit never had a "consigliere", or in other words, they continued to operate in almost the same manner even when Capone became the boss, meaning he was at the top with Ricca right beneath him, and since he had the whole city for himself, he possibly divided it in the old Chicago underworld tradition, meaning the city was always divided on territories, and in Capones case i strongly believe that he created four factions, or those same already existing previous factions which he managed to unite with or without force, north, west, south and the heights.

I definitely buy the idea that their crews were always more or less defined by territory, but I'm not understanding what confirms that Chicago never had a consigliere. It's certainly possible, as Stefano Magaddino was a boss since the early 1920s and was recorded saying he never had a consigliere, plus other groups seem to have gone without consiglieri, especially later.

For me, the only thing that would confirm that they never had a consigliere would be a member source saying those exact words, like Magaddino did: "Chicago never had a consigliere." Otherwise it's just too hard to know without an inside member source explicitly commenting on the position.

I agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be any definitive info indicating that they DID have a consigliere, either. The consigliere is also a somewhat amorphous position and informants have described it ranging from an ineffective senior member with little influence to someone equal in power to the boss, so without someone commenting on it directly it's almost impossible to figure out as an outsider. It's a position that tends to be almost entirely related to mafia politics and not the functional "organized crime" / racketeering side of the group so even more than positions like boss and underboss it requires a member source.

Re-posting this section of B.'s recent post from the "Capone and the Mafia" thread, as it's relevant to the question of how comparable Chicago's senior advisor/"boss emeritus" role was to various ways that the consigliere position may have functioned in other families.

Nick Calabrese's testimony proved it. I don't understand the point of going round & round about something that the Outfit themselves never cared about mentioning. It's just a bunch of "Sicilian Mental Masturbating" at this point. Nick Calabrese testified the structure & never mentioned the word "Consigliere". If it was THAT important, he would have mentioned it because he mentioned everything else about the hierarchy. Only outsiders like us in 2020 would continue obsessing over it. If Al Capone could read some of these postings, he would be laughing in his grave.

No matter what you say or place on the table, in the end your evidence will be ignored

[Villain]

In addition, heres another proof regarding the Outfits "Sicilian" way....

[B.]

In addition, heres another proof regarding the Outfits "Sicilian" way....

This doesn't really play out as Sicilian or non-Sicilian, though, as the Bonanno and DeCavalcante families also had a long history of doing casual "verbal only" ceremonies and they were two of the most Sicilian families in the United States for generations with large "zip" "factions. The Lucchese family also did at least one "verbal only" ceremony in the 1950s. It seems like the more tight-knit and insular families were willing to forego the ceremony when they saw fit regardless of their heritage.

Just to clarify, since it comes up, I've never wanted to prove the post-1931 Chicago family was a heavily Sicilian-centric family. While they continued to have members of Sicilian heritage and there were a number of figures like D'Andrea, Prio, Bacino, etc. who could be considered a bridge between the old Sicilian factions and the Capone element, in no way do I think they were heavily influenced by Sicilian mafia culture in later generations beyond continuing to be a recognized Cosa Nostra / mafia family.

When I've mentioned Sicily in connection to the post-1931 Chicago family, all I mean is they were a continuation of the same Chicago mafia family that had previously been led by Sicilian bosses and they used the basic rules and protocol establish by the Sicilian mafia -- even if they did ignore and change some of the protocol over time. Capone took over the boss position from Salvatore LoVerde and they continued to be recognized as a mafia (or "Cosa Nostra") family by other mafia organizations. Beyond that, I have no reason to believe they maintained a significant Sicilian influence over the years and it is clear they were heavily Americanized early on.

[Villain]

In addition, heres another proof regarding the Outfits "Sicilian" way....

This doesn't really play out as Sicilian or non-Sicilian, though, as the Bonanno and DeCavalcante families also had a long history of doing casual "verbal only" ceremonies and they were two of the most Sicilian families in the United States for generations with large "zip" "factions. The Lucchese family also did at least one "verbal only" ceremony in the 1950s. It seems like the more tight-knit and insular families were willing to forego the ceremony when they saw fit regardless of their heritage.

You are talking about a limited time periods and limited number of inductions, im talking about constant 50 years time period

[B.]

That isn't true. In the Bonanno family we have evidence from many sources of "verbal only" inductions happening possibly as early as the late 1920s, based on Bonanno's description of his own induction, plus ceremonies in the 1950s and 1970s-2000s. That's a comparable amount of time to Chicago, possibly even longer.

With the DeCavalcantes, we only know that they did "verbal only" inductions in the 1970s and 1980s. We don't have any information on their inductions from the 1950s and earlier, so it's entirely possible it went back further with them as well, we just don't have the data to trace it back.

Chicago is definitely not unique in terms of their "casual" approach to inductions, though I would agree this approach added to their other nontraditional qualities and character as an organization.

[Villain]

That isn't true. In the Bonanno family we have evidence from many sources of "verbal only" inductions happening possibly as early as the late 1920s, based on Bonanno's description of his own induction, plus ceremonies in the 1950s and 1970s-2000s. That's a comparable amount of time to Chicago, possibly even longer.

With the DeCavalcantes, we only know that they did "verbal only" inductions in the 1970s and 1980s. We don't have any information on their inductions from the 1950s and earlier, so it's entirely possible it went back further with them as well, we just don't have the data to trace it back.

Chicago is definitely not unique in terms of their "casual" approach to inductions, though I would agree this approach added to their other nontraditional qualities and character as an organization.

You are constantly using the word "possibly" dont you think? Lots of possibilities out there but the problem is that Chicago was unique in having non-traditional inductions for 5 straight decades...im not using "possibly" and im not using hot and cold situations and examples

Agree to disagree? And lets switch to PolackTony so we can continue the same convo...

[Confederate]

In addition, heres another proof regarding the Outfits "Sicilian" way....

This doesn't really play out as Sicilian or non-Sicilian, though, as the Bonanno and DeCavalcante families also had a long history of doing casual "verbal only" ceremonies and they were two of the most Sicilian families in the United States for generations with large "zip" "factions. The Lucchese family also did at least one "verbal only" ceremony in the 1950s. It seems like the more tight-knit and insular families were willing to forego the ceremony when they saw fit regardless of their heritage.

Just to clarify, since it comes up, I've never wanted to prove the post-1931 Chicago family was a heavily Sicilian-centric family. While they continued to have members of Sicilian heritage and there were a number of figures like D'Andrea, Prio, Bacino, etc. who could be considered a bridge between the old Sicilian factions and the Capone element, in no way do I think they were heavily influenced by Sicilian mafia culture in later generations beyond continuing to be a recognized Cosa Nostra / mafia family.

When I've mentioned Sicily in connection to the post-1931 Chicago family, all I mean is they were a continuation of the same Chicago mafia family that had previously been led by Sicilian bosses and they used the basic rules and protocol establish by the Sicilian mafia -- even if they did ignore and change some of the protocol over time. Capone took over the boss position from Salvatore LoVerde and they continued to be recognized as a mafia (or "Cosa Nostra") family by other mafia organizations. Beyond that, I have no reason to believe they maintained a significant Sicilian influence over the years and it is clear they were heavily Americanized early on.

Wrong again. You still are stuck on that "Sicilian Obsession". The Capone Syndicate "absorbed" the smaller Chicago Mafia group. The Outfit was a huge Syndicate Organization BEFORE Capone ever was made in 1928. In 1927, the Capone Organization grossed $105 Million Dollars in Business. They were way bigger than the smaller Chicago Mafia Group. They "absorbed" them & the "Capone Organization" became recognized as one of the LCN Families.

[B.]

Induction tangent...

- Every known Genovese induction involved the full traditional ceremony. They are historically the least Sicilian NYC family and for that matter one of the least Sicilian families in the entire country. Go figure that the Bonannos, with all of their Sicilian pomp and heritage, would let go of the traditional ceremony while the Genovese, who get called an Americanized racketeering syndicate dominated by Neapolitans and Calabrians, kept the traditional Sicilian mafia ceremony going consistently.

- An informant told the FBI in the 1960s that the Buffalo family had stopped using the traditional ceremony many years earlier, though they didn't give details and we don't know how consistent this was (or who the informant was). Buffalo was a heavily Sicilian family.

- All of Philadelphia's non-Sicilian leaders officiated traditional ceremonies... then leave it to John Stanfa, from a Sicilian mafia background, to induct Ron Previte just by verbally telling him he's made.

- The problem with Chicago is we don't know what their ceremonies were like under the early Sicilian leadership. They were probably traditional, but we don't have examples and can't definitively say there was a change in approach. The detailed report of the 1956 ceremony where Ferriola and others were brought in was fairly formal but didn't have the gun, knife, and card, though it was far more traditional than the report about members simply being told they're "in", which is more like an associate being put "on record".

- Then we have the 1980s Chicago ceremony that was totally in the Sicilian mafia tradition, which Antiliar thinks was a result of Ricca's death and Accardo/Aiuppa's Sicilian heritage. That theory would indicate that traditional Sicilian influence was alive and well in Chicago after decades of dormancy. No inside source has explained the reasoning (if any) for the formality of the 1980s ceremony in contrast with earlier informal inductions, so I'm not sure what to make of it, but it stands out that they decided to formalize the ceremony after decades of allegedly ignoring tradition.

If nothing else, we can conclude that the decision to use or not use the traditional ceremony among various families didn't have much to do with the Sicilian heritage of the leadership or make-up of the family. It appears to be more a matter of convenience and surely Americanization.

--


Have any Chicago member sources ever mentioned whether they had to be introduced to another chicago member via a third party? They would have to be introduced via third party to non-Chicago mafia members, as this protocol is strictly followed, but I'm curious if we have information about how Chicago members were introduced within their own family.

[Villain]

In addition, heres another proof regarding the Outfits "Sicilian" way....

This doesn't really play out as Sicilian or non-Sicilian, though, as the Bonanno and DeCavalcante families also had a long history of doing casual "verbal only" ceremonies and they were two of the most Sicilian families in the United States for generations with large "zip" "factions. The Lucchese family also did at least one "verbal only" ceremony in the 1950s. It seems like the more tight-knit and insular families were willing to forego the ceremony when they saw fit regardless of their heritage.

Just to clarify, since it comes up, I've never wanted to prove the post-1931 Chicago family was a heavily Sicilian-centric family. While they continued to have members of Sicilian heritage and there were a number of figures like D'Andrea, Prio, Bacino, etc. who could be considered a bridge between the old Sicilian factions and the Capone element, in no way do I think they were heavily influenced by Sicilian mafia culture in later generations beyond continuing to be a recognized Cosa Nostra / mafia family.

When I've mentioned Sicily in connection to the post-1931 Chicago family, all I mean is they were a continuation of the same Chicago mafia family that had previously been led by Sicilian bosses and they used the basic rules and protocol establish by the Sicilian mafia -- even if they did ignore and change some of the protocol over time. Capone took over the boss position from Salvatore LoVerde and they continued to be recognized as a mafia (or "Cosa Nostra") family by other mafia organizations. Beyond that, I have no reason to believe they maintained a significant Sicilian influence over the years and it is clear they were heavily Americanized early on.

Wrong again. You still are stuck on that "Sicilian Obsession". The Capone Syndicate "absorbed" the smaller Chicago Mafia group. The Outfit was a huge Syndicate Organization BEFORE Capone ever was made in 1928. In 1927, the Capone Organization grossed $105 Million Dollars in Business. They were way bigger than the smaller Chicago Mafia Group. They "absorbed" them & the "Capone Organization" became recognized as one of the LCN Families.

Theres obviously a hidden agenda here. Its happening for the second time and some people simply dont have the respect for our work and want to discredit us by using "possibly" and "if" and unbased theories....other people are saying this also....let it go

[Confederate]

In addition, heres another proof regarding the Outfits "Sicilian" way....

This doesn't really play out as Sicilian or non-Sicilian, though, as the Bonanno and DeCavalcante families also had a long history of doing casual "verbal only" ceremonies and they were two of the most Sicilian families in the United States for generations with large "zip" "factions. The Lucchese family also did at least one "verbal only" ceremony in the 1950s. It seems like the more tight-knit and insular families were willing to forego the ceremony when they saw fit regardless of their heritage.

Just to clarify, since it comes up, I've never wanted to prove the post-1931 Chicago family was a heavily Sicilian-centric family. While they continued to have members of Sicilian heritage and there were a number of figures like D'Andrea, Prio, Bacino, etc. who could be considered a bridge between the old Sicilian factions and the Capone element, in no way do I think they were heavily influenced by Sicilian mafia culture in later generations beyond continuing to be a recognized Cosa Nostra / mafia family.

When I've mentioned Sicily in connection to the post-1931 Chicago family, all I mean is they were a continuation of the same Chicago mafia family that had previously been led by Sicilian bosses and they used the basic rules and protocol establish by the Sicilian mafia -- even if they did ignore and change some of the protocol over time. Capone took over the boss position from Salvatore LoVerde and they continued to be recognized as a mafia (or "Cosa Nostra") family by other mafia organizations. Beyond that, I have no reason to believe they maintained a significant Sicilian influence over the years and it is clear they were heavily Americanized early on.

Wrong again. You still are stuck on that "Sicilian Obsession". The Capone Syndicate "absorbed" the smaller Chicago Mafia group. The Outfit was a huge Syndicate Organization BEFORE Capone ever was made in 1928. In 1927, the Capone Organization grossed $105 Million Dollars in Business. They were way bigger than the smaller Chicago Mafia Group. They "absorbed" them & the "Capone Organization" became recognized as one of the LCN Families.

Theres obviously a hidden agenda here. Its happening for the second time and some people simply dont have the respect for our work and want to discredit us by using "possibly" and "if" and unbased theories....let it go

Read the "Drug Thread" some time & you'll get your answer.

[B.]

That isn't true. In the Bonanno family we have evidence from many sources of "verbal only" inductions happening possibly as early as the late 1920s, based on Bonanno's description of his own induction, plus ceremonies in the 1950s and 1970s-2000s. That's a comparable amount of time to Chicago, possibly even longer.

With the DeCavalcantes, we only know that they did "verbal only" inductions in the 1970s and 1980s. We don't have any information on their inductions from the 1950s and earlier, so it's entirely possible it went back further with them as well, we just don't have the data to trace it back.

Chicago is definitely not unique in terms of their "casual" approach to inductions, though I would agree this approach added to their other nontraditional qualities and character as an organization.

You are constantly using the word "possibly" dont you think? Lots of possibilities out there but the problem is that Chicago was unique in having non-traditional inductions for 5 straight decades...im not using "possibly" and im not using hot and cold situations and examples

Agree to disagree? And lets switch to PolackTony so we can continue the same convo...

We have many confirmed examples of the Bonannos doing this for over 50 years. I tend to say "possibly" in these discussions because I've learned not to make definitive statements about a shadowy subject that is constantly changing as we learn more. It is however a fact that the Bonannos held numerous nontraditional "verbal only" inductions between the 1950s - 2000s and this is confirmed by numerous CIs and CWs -- something we have very few of in Chicago.

Chicago isn't unique in their approach to nontraditional induction ceremonies and finding these parallels between different mafia organizations should be interesting to you, not an excuse to attack or accuse someone who shares valid information in good faith.