Grand Ave in the Pre-Lombardo Era

[Villain]

As for Mangano being a simple associate....its the same as saying Capone was a simple bagman for Guzik....no offence to anyone

[PolackTony]

@Villain and @ Antilliar two questions regarding Mangano. First, maybe Mangano was never made by the Outfit. But seems like a good possibility that he was made by the Sicilian organization. One wonders if those "grandfathered in" from the Sicilian family were seen the same as those actually made in the Outfit? Second, even if Mangano wasn't answering to Circella and was a power in his own right, seems that he was never part of the central power structure of the Outfit and thus if Circella had the ear of Nitti, Ricca, Campagna then maybe it's still possible that with Circella away and Accardo a rising power seeking to assert himself over the Northwest side, Mangano was cut off from the leadership and vulnerable?

[Villain]

@Villain and @ Antilliar two questions regarding Mangano. First, maybe Mangano was never made by the Outfit. But seems like a good possibility that he was made by the Sicilian organization. One wonders if those "grandfathered in" from the Sicilian family were seen the same as those actually made in the Outfit? Second, even if Mangano wasn't answering to Circella and was a power in his own right, seems that he was never part of the central power structure of the Outfit and thus if Circella had the ear of Nitti, Ricca, Campagna then maybe it's still possible that with Circella away and Accardo a rising power seeking to assert himself over the Northwest side, Mangano was cut off from the leadership and vulnerable?

Capone was first made a capodecina by the Sicilians and later recognized as boss, again by the Sicilians. The ones who had dual memberships were probably Camorra guys later indicted into the Sicilian Mafia.

As I previously said, Mangano belonged to the old guard. During the 20s he and Orazio Tropea were partenrs in a restaurant and he even owned few restaurants and few gambling joints. Lots of action for one associate dont you think? Also theres a great possibility that Mangano was made way before Capone. Proof for these claims are his close connections to the old north/Sicilian faction and i dont believe that his murder during the conflict was just a coincidence or that it occurred because of another or different reason

[PolackTony]

@Villain and @ Antilliar two questions regarding Mangano. First, maybe Mangano was never made by the Outfit. But seems like a good possibility that he was made by the Sicilian organization. One wonders if those "grandfathered in" from the Sicilian family were seen the same as those actually made in the Outfit? Second, even if Mangano wasn't answering to Circella and was a power in his own right, seems that he was never part of the central power structure of the Outfit and thus if Circella had the ear of Nitti, Ricca, Campagna then maybe it's still possible that with Circella away and Accardo a rising power seeking to assert himself over the Northwest side, Mangano was cut off from the leadership and vulnerable?

Capone was first made a capodecina by the Sicilians and later recognized as boss, again by the Sicilians. The ones who had dual memberships were probably Camorra guys later indicted into the Sicilian Mafia.

As I previously said, Mangano belonged to the old guard. During the 20s he and Orazio Tropea were partenrs in a restaurant and he even owned few restaurants and few gambling joints. Lots of action for one associate dont you think? Also theres a great possibility that Mangano was made way before Capone. Proof for these claims are his close connections to the old north/Sicilian faction and i dont believe that his murder during the conflict was just a coincidence or that it occurred because of another or different reason

Yes I think that it's likely that Mangano was made already in the Sicilian family. Another point of evidence here is that, IIRC, he was arrested in 1931 as part of a kidnapping conspiracy in Chicago also involving two Buffalo members (Palmieri and Di Carlo), as well as another guy who was part of the Castellemmarese faction in NYC. This further goes to show his significant links to the Sicilian mafia nationally.

[PolackTony]

Also, if it's useful, here's the relevant section from the Tribune article:

[PolackTony]

Can't figure out how to post a hosted image. Here's a link anyway:
https://ibb.co/4Z8hLJ8

[Villain]

@Villain and @ Antilliar two questions regarding Mangano. First, maybe Mangano was never made by the Outfit. But seems like a good possibility that he was made by the Sicilian organization. One wonders if those "grandfathered in" from the Sicilian family were seen the same as those actually made in the Outfit? Second, even if Mangano wasn't answering to Circella and was a power in his own right, seems that he was never part of the central power structure of the Outfit and thus if Circella had the ear of Nitti, Ricca, Campagna then maybe it's still possible that with Circella away and Accardo a rising power seeking to assert himself over the Northwest side, Mangano was cut off from the leadership and vulnerable?

Capone was first made a capodecina by the Sicilians and later recognized as boss, again by the Sicilians. The ones who had dual memberships were probably Camorra guys later indicted into the Sicilian Mafia.

As I previously said, Mangano belonged to the old guard. During the 20s he and Orazio Tropea were partenrs in a restaurant and he even owned few restaurants and few gambling joints. Lots of action for one associate dont you think? Also theres a great possibility that Mangano was made way before Capone. Proof for these claims are his close connections to the old north/Sicilian faction and i dont believe that his murder during the conflict was just a coincidence or that it occurred because of another or different reason

Yes I think that it's likely that Mangano was made already in the Sicilian family. Another point of evidence here is that, IIRC, he was arrested in 1931 as part of a kidnapping conspiracy in Chicago also involving two Buffalo members (Palmieri and Di Carlo), as well as another guy who was part of the Castellemmarese faction in NYC. This further goes to show his significant links to the Sicilian mafia nationally.

Great find and thanks!!! Yeah i remember reading about that case which as you already said, additionally confirms his made status. Ill be honest that the only thing i might be wrong is me placing Mangano under the west side bloc (Ricca, Campagna, Nitto, Rio), but instead maybe i should place him under the old north faction as their old time rep around the north/west....

[PolackTony]

@Villain and @ Antilliar two questions regarding Mangano. First, maybe Mangano was never made by the Outfit. But seems like a good possibility that he was made by the Sicilian organization. One wonders if those "grandfathered in" from the Sicilian family were seen the same as those actually made in the Outfit? Second, even if Mangano wasn't answering to Circella and was a power in his own right, seems that he was never part of the central power structure of the Outfit and thus if Circella had the ear of Nitti, Ricca, Campagna then maybe it's still possible that with Circella away and Accardo a rising power seeking to assert himself over the Northwest side, Mangano was cut off from the leadership and vulnerable?

Capone was first made a capodecina by the Sicilians and later recognized as boss, again by the Sicilians. The ones who had dual memberships were probably Camorra guys later indicted into the Sicilian Mafia.

As I previously said, Mangano belonged to the old guard. During the 20s he and Orazio Tropea were partenrs in a restaurant and he even owned few restaurants and few gambling joints. Lots of action for one associate dont you think? Also theres a great possibility that Mangano was made way before Capone. Proof for these claims are his close connections to the old north/Sicilian faction and i dont believe that his murder during the conflict was just a coincidence or that it occurred because of another or different reason

Yes I think that it's likely that Mangano was made already in the Sicilian family. Another point of evidence here is that, IIRC, he was arrested in 1931 as part of a kidnapping conspiracy in Chicago also involving two Buffalo members (Palmieri and Di Carlo), as well as another guy who was part of the Castellemmarese faction in NYC. This further goes to show his significant links to the Sicilian mafia nationally.

Great find and thanks!!! Yeah i remember reading about that case which as you already said, additionally confirms his made status. Ill be honest that the only thing i might be wrong is me placing Mangano under the west side bloc (Ricca, Campagna, Nitto, Rio), but instead maybe i should place him under the old north faction as their old time rep around the north/west....

Following this then, do we have any basis for placing Mangano and DeGeorge/DeJohn in the same camp? Were they formally tied through specific power structures or just as a faction of Sicilians made under the old Sicilian family? One wonders of poat-1931 they had grown accustomed to divvying up the terrorized on the Northwest and Near Northwest until the rise of the Circus boys to dominance led to them being wiped out.

Also, do we have any guess as to their formal status in the Outfit? Were Mangano, DeGeorge, DeJohn all capidecina? If so, were either Accardo or Capezio also capidecina at the same time? Wondering how to make sense of how these various parts fit together in the 30s and 40s.

[PolackTony]

@Villain and @ Antilliar two questions regarding Mangano. First, maybe Mangano was never made by the Outfit. But seems like a good possibility that he was made by the Sicilian organization. One wonders if those "grandfathered in" from the Sicilian family were seen the same as those actually made in the Outfit? Second, even if Mangano wasn't answering to Circella and was a power in his own right, seems that he was never part of the central power structure of the Outfit and thus if Circella had the ear of Nitti, Ricca, Campagna then maybe it's still possible that with Circella away and Accardo a rising power seeking to assert himself over the Northwest side, Mangano was cut off from the leadership and vulnerable?

Capone was first made a capodecina by the Sicilians and later recognized as boss, again by the Sicilians. The ones who had dual memberships were probably Camorra guys later indicted into the Sicilian Mafia.

As I previously said, Mangano belonged to the old guard. During the 20s he and Orazio Tropea were partenrs in a restaurant and he even owned few restaurants and few gambling joints. Lots of action for one associate dont you think? Also theres a great possibility that Mangano was made way before Capone. Proof for these claims are his close connections to the old north/Sicilian faction and i dont believe that his murder during the conflict was just a coincidence or that it occurred because of another or different reason

Yes I think that it's likely that Mangano was made already in the Sicilian family. Another point of evidence here is that, IIRC, he was arrested in 1931 as part of a kidnapping conspiracy in Chicago also involving two Buffalo members (Palmieri and Di Carlo), as well as another guy who was part of the Castellemmarese faction in NYC. This further goes to show his significant links to the Sicilian mafia nationally.

Great find and thanks!!! Yeah i remember reading about that case which as you already said, additionally confirms his made status. Ill be honest that the only thing i might be wrong is me placing Mangano under the west side bloc (Ricca, Campagna, Nitto, Rio), but instead maybe i should place him under the old north faction as their old time rep around the north/west....

Following this then, do we have any basis for placing Mangano and DeGeorge/DeJohn in the same camp? Were they formally tied through specific power structures or just as a faction of Sicilians made under the old Sicilian family? One wonders of poat-1931 they had grown accustomed to divvying up the terrorized on the Northwest and Near Northwest until the rise of the Circus boys to dominance led to them being wiped out.

I guess to be more specific, Mangano's territory would've been coveted by both Grand Ave/Elmwood on one side and Taylor St on the other. After he was taken out seems like Grand Ave And the old 42 boys divvied up his and DeJohn's territories. While.most of the Northwest side was taken over by Grand guys, I did see an old map that showed Smokes Aloisio in control of Logan Square.

[Villain]

@Villain and @ Antilliar two questions regarding Mangano. First, maybe Mangano was never made by the Outfit. But seems like a good possibility that he was made by the Sicilian organization. One wonders if those "grandfathered in" from the Sicilian family were seen the same as those actually made in the Outfit? Second, even if Mangano wasn't answering to Circella and was a power in his own right, seems that he was never part of the central power structure of the Outfit and thus if Circella had the ear of Nitti, Ricca, Campagna then maybe it's still possible that with Circella away and Accardo a rising power seeking to assert himself over the Northwest side, Mangano was cut off from the leadership and vulnerable?

Capone was first made a capodecina by the Sicilians and later recognized as boss, again by the Sicilians. The ones who had dual memberships were probably Camorra guys later indicted into the Sicilian Mafia.

As I previously said, Mangano belonged to the old guard. During the 20s he and Orazio Tropea were partenrs in a restaurant and he even owned few restaurants and few gambling joints. Lots of action for one associate dont you think? Also theres a great possibility that Mangano was made way before Capone. Proof for these claims are his close connections to the old north/Sicilian faction and i dont believe that his murder during the conflict was just a coincidence or that it occurred because of another or different reason

Yes I think that it's likely that Mangano was made already in the Sicilian family. Another point of evidence here is that, IIRC, he was arrested in 1931 as part of a kidnapping conspiracy in Chicago also involving two Buffalo members (Palmieri and Di Carlo), as well as another guy who was part of the Castellemmarese faction in NYC. This further goes to show his significant links to the Sicilian mafia nationally.

Great find and thanks!!! Yeah i remember reading about that case which as you already said, additionally confirms his made status. Ill be honest that the only thing i might be wrong is me placing Mangano under the west side bloc (Ricca, Campagna, Nitto, Rio), but instead maybe i should place him under the old north faction as their old time rep around the north/west....

Following this then, do we have any basis for placing Mangano and DeGeorge/DeJohn in the same camp? Were they formally tied through specific power structures or just as a faction of Sicilians made under the old Sicilian family? One wonders of poat-1931 they had grown accustomed to divvying up the terrorized on the Northwest and Near Northwest until the rise of the Circus boys to dominance led to them being wiped out.

Also, do we have any guess as to their formal status in the Outfit? Were Mangano, DeGeorge, DeJohn all capidecina? If so, were either Accardo or Capezio also capidecina at the same time? Wondering how to make sense of how these various parts fit together in the 30s and 40s.

Pre-Capone connections or as you already said, Sicilians probably made under the old regime.

The Circus squad was a thorn in the eyes of the North/West Mafia obviously because they were in their own territory, same as the Touhy gang but they were independent. But the biggest problem for the North/West mob was that the Circus squad represented the main muscle for the Capone mob with connections to professional killers from all around the country. Just look at the Aiello and Red Barker hits...pure military precision. I dont about Heeney or Capezio but i know that Maddox aka Moore went through WWl and probably had the skills and connections.

We have full confirmations regarding the capo statuses of both DeGeorge and DeJohn and possibly about O'Neglia, as for Mangano we can place him in the same category of Accardo, Ralph Capone, Charlie Fish, Frank Maritote, Rocco DeGrazia or Charlie Gioe, meaning we dont have completely full confirmation regarding their high positions, but we are 100% sure that they controlled large crews and even larger areas.

Also i dont think that Capezio was a capo until 1944, or when Accardo became the number two guy. Even though Capezio was older or had more seniority, and I also strongly believe that he was possibly one of Accardos mentors or some type of guardian, still if you look at the reports from the 1930s regarding Capezio, youll notice that his actions are mostly made out of burglaries and stickups because he obviously still loved that old adrenaline, while the younger Accardo was already on a higher level by being involved in gambling and union racketeering. In plane words, Accardo was the brain and was always in front of Capezio, while the latter one was his shadow and muscle.

So it seems Capezio was a capo from 1944 until 1946, and during the late 40s, according to Dan Serritella, he was one of the top leaders, meaning he probably became the top rep for the west side with Cerone as his capo for their EP crew.

[Villain]

@Villain and @ Antilliar two questions regarding Mangano. First, maybe Mangano was never made by the Outfit. But seems like a good possibility that he was made by the Sicilian organization. One wonders if those "grandfathered in" from the Sicilian family were seen the same as those actually made in the Outfit? Second, even if Mangano wasn't answering to Circella and was a power in his own right, seems that he was never part of the central power structure of the Outfit and thus if Circella had the ear of Nitti, Ricca, Campagna then maybe it's still possible that with Circella away and Accardo a rising power seeking to assert himself over the Northwest side, Mangano was cut off from the leadership and vulnerable?

Capone was first made a capodecina by the Sicilians and later recognized as boss, again by the Sicilians. The ones who had dual memberships were probably Camorra guys later indicted into the Sicilian Mafia.

As I previously said, Mangano belonged to the old guard. During the 20s he and Orazio Tropea were partenrs in a restaurant and he even owned few restaurants and few gambling joints. Lots of action for one associate dont you think? Also theres a great possibility that Mangano was made way before Capone. Proof for these claims are his close connections to the old north/Sicilian faction and i dont believe that his murder during the conflict was just a coincidence or that it occurred because of another or different reason

Yes I think that it's likely that Mangano was made already in the Sicilian family. Another point of evidence here is that, IIRC, he was arrested in 1931 as part of a kidnapping conspiracy in Chicago also involving two Buffalo members (Palmieri and Di Carlo), as well as another guy who was part of the Castellemmarese faction in NYC. This further goes to show his significant links to the Sicilian mafia nationally.

Great find and thanks!!! Yeah i remember reading about that case which as you already said, additionally confirms his made status. Ill be honest that the only thing i might be wrong is me placing Mangano under the west side bloc (Ricca, Campagna, Nitto, Rio), but instead maybe i should place him under the old north faction as their old time rep around the north/west....

Following this then, do we have any basis for placing Mangano and DeGeorge/DeJohn in the same camp? Were they formally tied through specific power structures or just as a faction of Sicilians made under the old Sicilian family? One wonders of poat-1931 they had grown accustomed to divvying up the terrorized on the Northwest and Near Northwest until the rise of the Circus boys to dominance led to them being wiped out.

I guess to be more specific, Mangano's territory would've been coveted by both Grand Ave/Elmwood on one side and Taylor St on the other. After he was taken out seems like Grand Ave And the old 42 boys divvied up his and DeJohn's territories. While.most of the Northwest side was taken over by Grand guys, I did see an old map that showed Smokes Aloisio in control of Logan Square.

Nicely said. Mangano had interests around the Near North, Northwest and all around the West Side, including Taylor St and Melrose Park. If the sources are true regarding Montana Jr being one of Manganos runners in the Hollywood scheme, then theres no question that he was also present around MP. There was a reason for which investigators at the time refered to Mangano as "King of the West Side".

You are also completely correct for saying that the Taylor St/Giancana and Accardos guys took over some of his areas, and also the interests of some of the old North Side guys. For example, Potenza was in Niles and Wheeling, Daddono was in DuPage and McHenry County, Caifano and Rudy Fratto received interests on Rush St, Battaglia received interests around the northwest and MP, Gianola received interests on the north, the English bros were around the northwest also etc.

Also dont forget that some of those same Taylor St guys possibly started under Mangano, such as Daddono, Gianola, the English bros and possibly even Glimco...my personal belief is that Glimco came under Louie Romano and Willie O'Donnell, especially O'Donnell who in turn was main associate of Mangano regarding all union activities in their own group. O'Donnell was also involved both in the Hollywood scheme and the early release of the bosses.

[PolackTony]

So it seems Capezio was a capo from 1944 until 1946, and during the late 40s, according to Dan Serritella, he was one of the top leaders, meaning he probably became the top rep for the west side with Cerone as his capo for their EP crew.

Thanks Villain. If it were the case that Capezio was boss over the Northwest during this period, with Cerone as his capo for EP, then I suppose either DeBiase played the same role for Grand ave. Or, perhaps Capezio maintained direct control over the Grand Ave neighborhood until his death with DeBiase as his lieutenant and then DeBiase took over as the main rep in the area after Capezio's death. Either way, Pascente provides evidence that by the late 50s DeBiase was seen as in charge of the Grand Ave Patch. Further evidence is supplied by a case in the 60s, where DeBiase and some crooked cops were indicted for bribery to provide false testimony in a burglary case involving Arthur Bravieri and Angelo Boscarino. This indicates that DeBiase may have continued in his role over the Grand Ave Patch possibly up until Lombardo's promotion to Capo.

[PolackTony]

The Circus squad was a thorn in the eyes of the North/West Mafia obviously because they were in their own territory, same as the Touhy gang but they were independent. But the biggest problem for the North/West mob was that the Circus squad represented the main muscle for the Capone mob with connections to professional killers from all around the country. Just look at the Aiello and Red Barker hits...pure military precision. I dont about Heeney or Capezio but i know that Maddox aka Moore went through WWl and probably had the skills and connections.

Given the strongly territorial nature of the Outfit in these decades, one can see why there was going to be an inevitable conflict between the old Sicilian faction in the North/West and the Circus boys and 42 boys on the other side. Unlike NYC for example, where multiple crews (multiple families even) have always operated within the same territories. I wonder how much of it was also driven by a conflict in vision between what may have been two different entities uneasily subsumed under the modern Outfit. It seems to me potentially like a replay of the older tensions between the "Greaseball" and Americanized/Mainlander factions before.

[Villain]

So it seems Capezio was a capo from 1944 until 1946, and during the late 40s, according to Dan Serritella, he was one of the top leaders, meaning he probably became the top rep for the west side with Cerone as his capo for their EP crew.

Thanks Villain. If it were the case that Capezio was boss over the Northwest during this period, with Cerone as his capo for EP, then I suppose either DeBiase played the same role for Grand ave. Or, perhaps Capezio maintained direct control over the Grand Ave neighborhood until his death with DeBiase as his lieutenant and then DeBiase took over as the main rep in the area after Capezio's death. Either way, Pascente provides evidence that by the late 50s DeBiase was seen as in charge of the Grand Ave Patch. Further evidence is supplied by a case in the 60s, where DeBiase and some crooked cops were indicted for bribery to provide false testimony in a burglary case involving Arthur Bravieri and Angelo Boscarino. This indicates that DeBiase may have continued in his role over the Grand Ave Patch possibly up until Lombardo's promotion to Capo.

Well i have to say thats some interesting thinking since i never looked at the situation from that perspective....as you already said, DeBiase was one of those mysterious cases who in turn was with mob since the last days of Prohibition, and it is quite possible that he held some high spot within the EP/Grand Av crew. I think that Capezio was the top guy of the group, followed by Cerone as his second in command and DeBiase probably came on third place...i dunno im just speculating here

Maybe in later years DeBiase was some type of elder statesman for the crew, same as Rocco DeGrazia who held that position within Battaglias crew, although DeGrazia was a former capo.

Also if DeBiase brought in Lombardo, then your theory falls in line but what about Alderisio and Nicoletti. During the late 60s Lombardo was quite close with Alderisio who in those days was the top rep for the West Side, and the most interesting thing was that by the mid 60s the connections between the Battaglia and Cerone crews became cold and blurry out of various reasons. Who knows, maybe Lombardo disconnected himself from the EP crew to an extent and joined Alderisio and Nicoletti....

Another interesting thing is one file from that same time period which states that Bobby Doer...an alias for Rocco Salvatore, Battaglias personal assistant, was in charge of a group of young hoodlums that also included one Joe Lombardi Jr. There was one Lombardi in the EP crew under Cerone but during those days he was already quite known by LE so i doubt that it was him in the file. As for Lombardo, many say that his real name was in fact Lombardi and on top of that, Salvatore was in the same group with Alderisio and Nicoletti...i also think that when Battaglia went to prison, Salvatore got shelved or something like that...just my two cents

[Villain]

The Circus squad was a thorn in the eyes of the North/West Mafia obviously because they were in their own territory, same as the Touhy gang but they were independent. But the biggest problem for the North/West mob was that the Circus squad represented the main muscle for the Capone mob with connections to professional killers from all around the country. Just look at the Aiello and Red Barker hits...pure military precision. I dont about Heeney or Capezio but i know that Maddox aka Moore went through WWl and probably had the skills and connections.

Given the strongly territorial nature of the Outfit in these decades, one can see why there was going to be an inevitable conflict between the old Sicilian faction in the North/West and the Circus boys and 42 boys on the other side. Unlike NYC for example, where multiple crews (multiple families even) have always operated within the same territories. I wonder how much of it was also driven by a conflict in vision between what may have been two different entities uneasily subsumed under the modern Outfit. It seems to me potentially like a replay of the older tensions between the "Greaseball" and Americanized/Mainlander factions before.

History always repeats itself, meaning at the "beginning" or during the pre-Capone era, the Chicago Mafia was allegedly divided on two groups....and in 2020 we allegedly again have two remaining groups...