Crea as Boss?

[SonnyBlackstein]

Not to mention, Junior can still be killed since all of the family’s hitters are likely under Tony. Junior has Bobby Bacala and...um...?

Ever seen salted cod hungry?



The sea was angry that day my friends.

[SonnyBlackstein]

It should have been annoying to me but I kinda found it adorable.

Enjoyed this sentence.

[Angelo Santino]

Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.

Didn't gangland even report that Corozzo was taking over? That Gotti gave his consent? I read that back in the day.

Look, Junior Gotti was supposed to have been acting boss until DiLeonardo came out and said he wasn't. It took an insider to reveal that because most non-members aren't going to be in a position to be told inside information. We are left to observe the operational: people looking influential based on the respect given, someone calling someone else their boss or calling their sidekick their underboss. It's a vital important aspect but it doesn't reveal the internal organization. However, in the operational sense, Jr was the boss' son and his stature was over the captains on the panel, but without the official position his status rested fully on that of his father's.

Anastasia, got bless him, is another example in his speculating that Anthony Staino was Ligambi's Underboss for some time. And then it came out it was Angelina, Anastasia said something like"some people say (Stain's) the real underboss." Who says that? No one that was a member. Anastasia had a hard time believing that because by that point everyone had made such a business of Ligambi's character: Uncle Joe, Make Money Not Headlines, Running The Family The Way It Should Be Ran. Certainly he'd surround himself with what we consider to be the best and brightest and Staino wears glasses and dresses well, he looks like he'd be a higher up?... In the end, it was still Angelina, the guy who got his ass kicked by his girlfriend. It might not make sense to George or us why Angelina held that position but it don't have to.

[JeremyTheJew]

Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.

Ya.
Same w Pizza / East Bronx. I THINK a lot of the Crea is boss talk came from him to be honest. And he use to say AMUSO IN NO WAY bla bla.

Few other things that ppl literally took as gospel too... He's a good guy n all.... But turns out his info was really off lol.

But yes, corrozzo is another huge battle.

The big battle a decade ago was believe it or not....
Who was more powerful : Chicago or NYC .
And it would lead to the rizzuto family being over e eryone

[SonnyBlackstein]

As for Amuso, we also had an FBI agent testify in open court that Amuso was still the boss.

I give you, the F.B.I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JI5gblI82rg

[JeremyTheJew]

Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.

Didn't gangland even report that Corozzo was taking over? That Gotti gave his consent? I read that back in the day.

Look, Junior Gotti was supposed to have been acting boss until DiLeonardo came out and said he wasn't. It took an insider to reveal that because most non-members aren't going to be in a position to be told inside information. We are left to observe the operational: people looking influential based on the respect given, someone calling someone else their boss or calling their sidekick their underboss. It's a vital important aspect but it doesn't reveal the internal organization. However, in the operational sense, Jr was the boss' son and his stature was over the captains on the panel, but without the official position his status rested fully on that of his father's.

Anastasia, got bless him, is another example in his speculating that Anthony Staino was Ligambi's Underboss for some time. And then it came out it was Angelina, Anastasia said something like"some people say (Stain's) the real underboss." Who says that? No one that was a member. Anastasia had a hard time believing that because by that point everyone had made such a business of Ligambi's character: Uncle Joe, Make Money Not Headlines, Running The Family The Way It Should Be Ran. Certainly he'd surround himself with what we consider to be the best and brightest and Staino wears glasses and dresses well, he looks like he'd be a higher up?... In the end, it was still Angelina, the guy who got his ass kicked by his girlfriend. It might not make sense to George or us why Angelina held that position but it don't have to.

It was reported that GENE said "go ahead and give him the title. He deserves it" meant corozzo and boss.... But.... He was busted in Fl shortly after and it was a wrap.

I'm surprised no one is talking about him coming out and taking over

[Angelo Santino]

Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.

Didn't gangland even report that Corozzo was taking over? That Gotti gave his consent? I read that back in the day.

Look, Junior Gotti was supposed to have been acting boss until DiLeonardo came out and said he wasn't. It took an insider to reveal that because most non-members aren't going to be in a position to be told inside information. We are left to observe the operational: people looking influential based on the respect given, someone calling someone else their boss or calling their sidekick their underboss. It's a vital important aspect but it doesn't reveal the internal organization. However, in the operational sense, Jr was the boss' son and his stature was over the captains on the panel, but without the official position his status rested fully on that of his father's.

Anastasia, got bless him, is another example in his speculating that Anthony Staino was Ligambi's Underboss for some time. And then it came out it was Angelina, Anastasia said something like"some people say (Stain's) the real underboss." Who says that? No one that was a member. Anastasia had a hard time believing that because by that point everyone had made such a business of Ligambi's character: Uncle Joe, Make Money Not Headlines, Running The Family The Way It Should Be Ran. Certainly he'd surround himself with what we consider to be the best and brightest and Staino wears glasses and dresses well, he looks like he'd be a higher up?... In the end, it was still Angelina, the guy who got his ass kicked by his girlfriend. It might not make sense to George or us why Angelina held that position but it don't have to.

It was reported that GENE said "go ahead and give him the title. He deserves it" meant corozzo and boss.... But.... He was busted in Fl shortly after and it was a wrap.

I'm surprised no one is talking about him coming out and taking over

Sounds like that time when Ligambi got word to an incarcerated Merlino in 2004 and told him that he's taking over and is going to run the family the way it should be ran... The forum talk at time was that New York is "quite happy" with how "Uncle Joe" is running things and when Merlino gets out he'll be offered a capo position. Take it to the bank!

[JeremyTheJew]

Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.

Didn't gangland even report that Corozzo was taking over? That Gotti gave his consent? I read that back in the day.

Look, Junior Gotti was supposed to have been acting boss until DiLeonardo came out and said he wasn't. It took an insider to reveal that because most non-members aren't going to be in a position to be told inside information. We are left to observe the operational: people looking influential based on the respect given, someone calling someone else their boss or calling their sidekick their underboss. It's a vital important aspect but it doesn't reveal the internal organization. However, in the operational sense, Jr was the boss' son and his stature was over the captains on the panel, but without the official position his status rested fully on that of his father's.

Anastasia, got bless him, is another example in his speculating that Anthony Staino was Ligambi's Underboss for some time. And then it came out it was Angelina, Anastasia said something like"some people say (Stain's) the real underboss." Who says that? No one that was a member. Anastasia had a hard time believing that because by that point everyone had made such a business of Ligambi's character: Uncle Joe, Make Money Not Headlines, Running The Family The Way It Should Be Ran. Certainly he'd surround himself with what we consider to be the best and brightest and Staino wears glasses and dresses well, he looks like he'd be a higher up?... In the end, it was still Angelina, the guy who got his ass kicked by his girlfriend. It might not make sense to George or us why Angelina held that position but it don't have to.

It was reported that GENE said "go ahead and give him the title. He deserves it" meant corozzo and boss.... But.... He was busted in Fl shortly after and it was a wrap.

I'm surprised no one is talking about him coming out and taking over

Sounds like that time when Ligambi got word to an incarcerated Merlino in 2004 and told him that he's taking over and is going to run the family the way it should be ran... The forum talk at time was that New York is "quite happy" with how "Uncle Joe" is running things and when Merlino gets out he'll be offered a capo position. Take it to the bank!

Ur right. Another one

[CabriniGreen]

Was it Gotti who said that Carlo created the " Acting" positions, and that he thought they were bullshit?

Another question, is it true that the entire time Gotti ran the Bergin, he was only an acting capo? That Cadtellano never made him an official capo?

[JeremyTheJew]

Was it Gotti who said that Carlo created the " Acting" positions, and that he thought they were bullshit?

Another question, is it true that the entire time Gotti ran the Bergin, he was only an acting capo? That Cadtellano never made him an official capo?

Not true.

One of his folk lore glory is he was the "acting capo" before he was made...

But if u remmember, there's wiretaps of him talking about splitting up Gotti whole crew.

[Angelo Santino]

Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.

Didn't gangland even report that Corozzo was taking over? That Gotti gave his consent? I read that back in the day.

Look, Junior Gotti was supposed to have been acting boss until DiLeonardo came out and said he wasn't. It took an insider to reveal that because most non-members aren't going to be in a position to be told inside information. We are left to observe the operational: people looking influential based on the respect given, someone calling someone else their boss or calling their sidekick their underboss. It's a vital important aspect but it doesn't reveal the internal organization. However, in the operational sense, Jr was the boss' son and his stature was over the captains on the panel, but without the official position his status rested fully on that of his father's.

Anastasia, got bless him, is another example in his speculating that Anthony Staino was Ligambi's Underboss for some time. And then it came out it was Angelina, Anastasia said something like"some people say (Stain's) the real underboss." Who says that? No one that was a member. Anastasia had a hard time believing that because by that point everyone had made such a business of Ligambi's character: Uncle Joe, Make Money Not Headlines, Running The Family The Way It Should Be Ran. Certainly he'd surround himself with what we consider to be the best and brightest and Staino wears glasses and dresses well, he looks like he'd be a higher up?... In the end, it was still Angelina, the guy who got his ass kicked by his girlfriend. It might not make sense to George or us why Angelina held that position but it don't have to.

It was reported that GENE said "go ahead and give him the title. He deserves it" meant corozzo and boss.... But.... He was busted in Fl shortly after and it was a wrap.

I'm surprised no one is talking about him coming out and taking over

Sounds like that time when Ligambi got word to an incarcerated Merlino in 2004 and told him that he's taking over and is going to run the family the way it should be ran... The forum talk at time was that New York is "quite happy" with how "Uncle Joe" is running things and when Merlino gets out he'll be offered a capo position. Take it to the bank!

Ur right. Another one

With information like this, I "leave the door open," same goes for the "DeCavalcante being the first Family" or "Carlo creating Acting Positions" and whatever else. On the surface, if we're going for a black and white yes and no then all of these can be labeled as false. Digging beneath surface we might find elements of truth. I'm open to the idea that events did happen in these cases but the information went through a game of Chinese Whispers and it got misconstrued. Maybe Ligambi did speak with Merlino in '04 about some important "change", maybe the DeCavalcante's were the first at something in NJ, maybe Carlo having Castellano as Acting Boss while not away was a Gambino family first? We won't know until someone who was there can clarify.

[CabriniGreen]

Was it Gotti who said that Carlo created the " Acting" positions, and that he thought they were bullshit?

Another question, is it true that the entire time Gotti ran the Bergin, he was only an acting capo? That Cadtellano never made him an official capo?

Not true.

One of his folk lore glory is he was the "acting capo" before he was made...

But if u remmember, there's wiretaps of him talking about splitting up Gotti whole crew.

I couldnt find my copy of the book, so I couldnt get the whole convo, but I was remembering this passage here...

https://books.google.com/books?id=V0Cfj ... er&f=false

He says, " Carlo wouldnt make anyone official.."..

Anyone have the book? I'm sure there was more than the little bit in that link.....

[CabriniGreen]

Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.

Ya.
Same w Pizza / East Bronx. I THINK a lot of the Crea is boss talk came from him to be honest. And he use to say AMUSO IN NO WAY bla bla.

Few other things that ppl literally took as gospel too... He's a good guy n all.... But turns out his info was really off lol.

But yes, corrozzo is another huge battle.

The big battle a decade ago was believe it or not....
Who was more powerful : Chicago or NYC .
And it would lead to the rizzuto family being over e eryone

I liked Pizza just like a lotta guys, but he was VERY Bronx -centric. You couldnt really tell him anything about the Bronx guys....

What I always found intriguing was that it was Funari's proteges who took over.

This speaks to Chris's point, was Funari the most respected? Feared? Despite ONLY being consigliere?Why HIS proteges and not the Bronx or Harlem guys'?


Also, on Fratianno, he sounds much more like Vitale when Vitale was Acting boss, underboss, Massinos lackey, or whatnot....

[Angelo Santino]

Similar situation happened to me with Nicky Corozzo. At one point I would have bet 10k that he was the boss because I literally heard guys refer to him as the boss. One would assume a made guy would know who his boss is but turns out that's not always the case. The soldiers are just as susceptible to gossip and hearsay as any of us. Whether Nicky spread the rumor himself like DiLeonardo says or someone else started it it really caught on and people believed it hook line and sinker. Of course we were wrong and it made me realize the street level point of view is very narrow.

Ya.
Same w Pizza / East Bronx. I THINK a lot of the Crea is boss talk came from him to be honest. And he use to say AMUSO IN NO WAY bla bla.

Few other things that ppl literally took as gospel too... He's a good guy n all.... But turns out his info was really off lol.

But yes, corrozzo is another huge battle.

The big battle a decade ago was believe it or not....
Who was more powerful : Chicago or NYC .
And it would lead to the rizzuto family being over e eryone

I liked Pizza just like a lotta guys, but he was VERY Bronx -centric. You couldnt really tell him anything about the Bronx guys....

What I always found intriguing was that it was Funari's proteges who took over.

This speaks to Chris's point, was Funari the most respected? Feared? Despite ONLY being consigliere?Why HIS proteges and not the Bronx or Harlem guys'?


Also, on Fratianno, he sounds much more like Vitale when Vitale was Acting boss, underboss, Massinos lackey, or whatnot....

It goes into operational vs organizational. That's my "viability" shtick. The thesis is that we can't really know the internal organization based off of observation alone. If we were FBI agents surveying Brooklyn and Queens in the early 1990's we'd see Sal Vitale and Spero apparently in charge based off who they're meeting, with the respect shown and the way they carry themselves.. Second, do made guys go around telling their relatives and friends the inner workings of the organization? Maybe they hear 'So and so's a prick' but do they really sit them down and explain "so and so became boss, this guy was made consig and so and so inherited this crew." I can't say it hasn't happened but do people think it happens often?.. Without internal sources stating that Vitale was only Acting Boss that's what the FBI would jot it down as. Luckily by the 1980's there were plenty of informants to hash things out. Slightly different than ten years prior when, without informants laying it out, it took us 30 years to learn Galante was never the official boss. That's organizational. But operational? He was trying to take the position, he was making members, he more or less was the "highest" guy on the street, but as Vitale said, "he was never a boss."

It sucks. I wish it were as easy as observing who gets their hand shook and kissed the most as a guide for putting together a chart but it would be a fallacy. It's why we have a Detroit FBI chart from 63 listing 130 people yet from informants there were about 64 members. It sucks for me because I deal in the early history and would love to put out charts. But I couldn't do them with any degree of accuracy. In most cases we know who the bosses were but beyond that, who was made, who was not, who held rank is open to interpretation. And as helpful as newspapers are they are dangerous to rely on. D'Aquila's murder barely made the news, without Gentile then Greg Conte would have been another in a long list of black hand victims and not the boss of Pittsburgh in the 1910's.

If Merlino/Stanfa had duked it out in 1903 and not 1993, we'd have been without the wiretaps, any informants wouldn't have been properly utilized and the papers would have written about the Stanfa and Merlino mobs as separate organizations. Historians today would argue that the Merlino mob wiped the Stanfa mob out and that the current mob descends from Merlino. Which is more or less what happened BUT its important not to lose sight that it was an internal division within a singular entity, not warring gangs of Siggies.

Let's take it back further to Monreale in the 1870's, there was the so-called new mafia Stuppaghliari in a war against the old mafia called giardinieri. Did completely new Mafia organization rise up and defeat the old Mafia organization or was it an internal division in the Monreale Family? I lean towards the latter but there's no proof either way, everyone who was there was dead and these questions weren't asked or discussed at trial. Most Family splits are amicable and agreed upon. I can't think of one in the US that had a violent split and continued separate. Maybe Rochester? But even that's debatable as there's informants say they were separate, they never left Buffalo, they were under the Bonannos. Nothing really concrete.

Regarding Furnari and his actions. We know his position and others in the admin. The info to be extracted would be to see how they're individual duties functioned. Was Furnari advising Corallo or was it a political promotion? Things like that. It goes into operational which is just as important as the organizational. It's important to remember that just because someone isn't a certain rank doesn't mean he's a flunky. Uncle Joe, if he's retired, is technically a soldier. I think "soldier" is misleading and "member" would be a better description of made affiliates without rank.

And this has everything to do with Crea, doesn't it? Sorry.

[johnny_scootch]

What I always found intriguing was that it was Funari's proteges who took over.

This speaks to Chris's point, was Funari the most respected? Feared? Despite ONLY being consigliere?Why HIS proteges and not the Bronx or Harlem guys'?

Christy Tick was respected, feared and any other positive adjective you could throw at a gangster. I put him in a category with guys like Neil Dellacroce and Sonny Franzese in terms of street status.

I think after Luongo is out of the picture the reason those spots went to Amuso and Casso was because of Casso's reputation. He really was the Mickey Mantle of the mafia for a time. Very promising member with enormous potential, literally a five tool Mafioso.