Grand Ave in the Pre-Lombardo Era

[Villain]

Yes, he was put in charge of Cicero after Infelice died, and was already boss of Chinatown.

Thats just one of the evidences regarding the close connections and also regarding the territorial boss theory...

[PolackTony]

Thanks to @Antilliar for clarifying that the notion of "territorial boss" remains contended. I think it's a useful and productive debate.

@Villain, out of curiosity, how do you see Lombardo fitting into the territorial boss framework? In the 70s and early 80s would you place Lombardo under Cerone as a territorial boss? Or do you think Lombardo still warrants being considered a territorial boss over the Westside/Melrose on his own terms as Battaglia before him?

People may remember Gerry Denono, alleged Chicago associate and hitman operating in FL and Vegas who rolled. He was interviewed in one of those older BBC documentaries and referenced distinct "families" in Chicago. Since coming across this notion of territorial boss and superordinate factions under the top Outfit leadership on this forum, I've wondered if DeNono is referring to this. Of course @Chris Christie and others on here have been keen to rightly warn us not to take the testimony of non-made guys at face value when it comes to questions of organizational structure, Denono's statement might at least give us an idea of how the structure was perceived by street level guys. Curious to see people's thoughts on this.

[Villain]

@Villain, out of curiosity, how do you see Lombardo fitting into the territorial boss framework? In the 70s and early 80s would you place Lombardo under Cerone as a territorial boss? Or do you think Lombardo still warrants being considered a territorial boss over the Westside/Melrose on his own terms as Battaglia before him?

According to one informant by 1974, Lombardo (west) sat on the same table with Torello (cicero/south), Pilotto (heights/indiana) and DiBella (north), or again according to that same informant, they were the main guys who still kept the Outfit in one piece during those days. By 1982 Lombardo was indicted and taken to custody and later imprisoned....when he got out, Lombardo possibly received the senior advisor or semi-retired position but still kept his connections to his old crew to an extent, probably with the help of Centracchio and Cozzo. You know the rest of the story....

Back in 1974, Cerone took the senior advisor position since he was fresh out of prison and on top of that, Alex had to take care of his wife and so he took a step back for a short time period... but by September 1975 or right after Giancanas demise, Cerone became the official underboss with Aiuppa being the official boss, while Accardo was the top boss and Alex was brought back to his previous position. Back in the days i never believed that guys can go up and down like that but the thing is, it wasnt only Chicago since similar situations also occurred in other families

[Confederate]

@Villain, out of curiosity, how do you see Lombardo fitting into the territorial boss framework? In the 70s and early 80s would you place Lombardo under Cerone as a territorial boss? Or do you think Lombardo still warrants being considered a territorial boss over the Westside/Melrose on his own terms as Battaglia before him?

According to one informant by 1974, Lombardo (west) sat on the same table with Torello (cicero/south), Pilotto (heights/indiana) and DiBella (north), or again according to that same informant, they were the main guys who still kept the Outfit in one piece. By 1982 Lombardo was indicted and taken to custody and later imprisoned....when he got out, Lombardo possibly received the senior advisor or semi-retired position but still kept his connections to his old crew to an extent, probably with the help of Centracchio and Cozzo. You know the rest of the story....

Back in 1974, Cerone took the senior advisor position since he was fresh out of prison and on top of that, Alex had to take care of his wife, but by September 1975 or right after Giancanas demise, Cerone became the official underboss with Aiuppa as the official boss, Accardo as the top boss and Alex was brought back to his previous position.

Also, those "titles" do not explain the "chemistry" of how the top 4 interacted with each other. When I say top 4, I mean Accardo, Auippa, Cerone & Alex. The Outfit was not a "dictatorship". In other words, according to other testimony, Cerone was certainly not subordinate to Auippa.

[Villain]

@Villain, out of curiosity, how do you see Lombardo fitting into the territorial boss framework? In the 70s and early 80s would you place Lombardo under Cerone as a territorial boss? Or do you think Lombardo still warrants being considered a territorial boss over the Westside/Melrose on his own terms as Battaglia before him?

According to one informant by 1974, Lombardo (west) sat on the same table with Torello (cicero/south), Pilotto (heights/indiana) and DiBella (north), or again according to that same informant, they were the main guys who still kept the Outfit in one piece. By 1982 Lombardo was indicted and taken to custody and later imprisoned....when he got out, Lombardo possibly received the senior advisor or semi-retired position but still kept his connections to his old crew to an extent, probably with the help of Centracchio and Cozzo. You know the rest of the story....

Back in 1974, Cerone took the senior advisor position since he was fresh out of prison and on top of that, Alex had to take care of his wife, but by September 1975 or right after Giancanas demise, Cerone became the official underboss with Aiuppa as the official boss, Accardo as the top boss and Alex was brought back to his previous position.

Also, those "titles" do not explain the "chemistry" of how the top 4 interacted with each other. When I say top 4, I mean Accardo, Auippa, Cerone & Alex. The Outfit was not a "dictatorship". In other words, according to other testimony, Cerone was certainly not subordinate to Auippa.

I agree....Cerone was the acting boss from 67 until 1970....so he reached higher stature before Aiuppa, meaning he was still powerful but since he went to prison and also had drinking problems, Accardo and Alex leaned more towards Aiuppa...so they were probably on the same level in terms of power, but according to Cosa Nostra rules, Aiuppa was the boss. This was also the main reason for which the feds placed both Aiuppa and Cerone on the same or horizontal level, rather than the standard vertical one

[Villain]

Chinatown. That's based on his file and Caruso's file.

Ok ive seen most of that info, like Catuara and Caruso took over from Roti Sr, but ive also seen files that Cataura belonged to Buccieri or even to Alex, and i believe that the confusion comes from his old time presence in Chinatown with the former Belcastro group and after switching sides or going with the LaPorte group, he probably still kept his interests around the near south side and Chinatown, but received additional ones in C City and Chicago Heights. Back in the old days, Chinatown was very similar to the Cicero area, meaning several crews operated in it with the Rotis being the "home team".

I also think that from time to time he was used as a muscleman and partner by other closely associated crews such as the Alex/Ferraro/Caruso group, same as members from the Buccieri crew. Catuara knew Alex, Caruso and Ferraro since the 20s, but that didnt stop him in joining John Robertos crew under Emery/LaPorte during later years, like when Catuara was released from jail or maybe even later.

So whats your opinion on these few files?....i think all of them confirm my theory, meaning during the 60s and 70s he was obviously with the LaPorte/Pilotto crew, or in other words he was a capo under LaPortes regime...

[Antiliar]

If Catuara was under LaPorte he wouldn't have been a capo since LaPorte was the capo of the Chicago Heights and south suburbs. I can't say definitely that Catuara didn't switch crews, but for me it's easier to believe that the informants were confused and mistaken when they placed him in different crews. I say this because different files place Catuara in the Chinatown crews and the Chicago Heights crews AT THE SAME TIME. Considering the secrecy the Outfit maintained, I think some CI's took a reasonable guess that was mistaken.

[Villain]

If Catuara was under LaPorte he wouldn't have been a capo since LaPorte was the capo of the Chicago Heights and south suburbs. I can't say definitely that Catuara didn't switch crews, but for me it's easier to believe that the informants were confused and mistaken when they placed him in different crews. I say this because different files place Catuara in the Chinatown crews and the Chicago Heights crews AT THE SAME TIME. Considering the secrecy the Outfit maintained, I think some CI's took a reasonable guess that was mistaken.

Ok, I know you dont believe much in the territorial boss theory and thats cool, and yeah I agree that there are different files which place Catuara in both the Chinatown and Chicago Heights crews, and as I previously stated, there are also files that place him under Buccieri or Alex, and you and I both know thats nonsense.

But lets look at situation like this...do we have any infos from that time period regarding other Chinatown bosses such as Caruso, or bosses who had interests in that same area like Alex and Buccieri, having additional interests in the Chicago Heights area and Will County, besides Catuara?

I know about Caruso and Alex having few interests in C City with Catuaras help but that was it. I also know that during the late 60s Buccieri tried to enter the Heights area and few guys were killed but in the end he was stopped and that was the end of it...or until the early 90s when the old Heights faction was finished, including the Indiana crew. I dont know, maybe im wrong...

I also believe that the main thing which played a major role in Catuaras transfer was his old time interests in C City. He probably received those interests after the Belcastro/Roti Sr vs the Gennero bros conflict. Before their elimination, the brothers had interests around the 20th ward and also in C City. Later 90% of that same area, meaning Calumet, went under the jurisdiction of the Heights mob.

On top of that look at the last file that ive sent you....the informant is saying what Pilotto told him about his associates or underlings, meaning Catuara and Palermo...the informant is not giving his own personal opinion but instead he gives us on what he was told by the boss of the Heights.

Fidanzi, Rubino, Tocco, the Guzzinos, Dauber, Palermo, the D'Andreas, the Franzes, Rich Ferraro etc. all were members of LaPorte/Pilottos crew, including Catuara who in turn was considered being above them but right below Pilotto.

Same as Frank Zizzo, meaning he didnt answer to Catuara but instead he answered to Pilotto...Catuara and Zizzo were colleagues or capos under Pilotto...some may label them as top lieutenants or crew bosses but i strongly believe they were legit capos under one top representative from their own faction or territorial boss. According to one file, Catuara wanted to enter some of the Indiana rackets with Zizzos help but both had to receive permission from Pilotto, especially Catuara.

Dont get me wrong, Catuara and Caruso were colleagues/capos also but they are represented more like partners by the feds, rather than like boss and underling. Meaning, Caruso was on record with Ferraro/Alex while Catuara was with LaPorte, besides having old time interests in Chinatown.

Caruso and the Rotis were the prime bosses of Chinatown, while guys like Catuara and Buccieri/LaPietras were on second place in that same area at the time. Maybe Catuara used to be one of the main lieutenants in Chinatown during the 30s but later things obviously changed, especially when he went to prison.

The only alleged Chinatown guys that i personally read about, who answered directly to Catuara, were Pete Gushi and James Maniatis aka Jimmy the Greek, although Gushi also allegedly answered to Caruso but his Chinatown alliances are also questionable since according to one informant, in 1973 or 74 Gushi personally told him that he worked for few high ranking mobsters, including Catuara, Caruso but also Joey Lombardo.

In addition, Gushi also told the informer “From now on, if anyone asks you, you’re working for Pete Gushi and you’re working for the family!”, meaning theres no question that Gushi was a legit Outfit guy. I also belive that one of Gushis parents was Italian but im not 100% sure

[Confederate]

If Catuara was under LaPorte he wouldn't have been a capo since LaPorte was the capo of the Chicago Heights and south suburbs. I can't say definitely that Catuara didn't switch crews, but for me it's easier to believe that the informants were confused and mistaken when they placed him in different crews. I say this because different files place Catuara in the Chinatown crews and the Chicago Heights crews AT THE SAME TIME. Considering the secrecy the Outfit maintained, I think some CI's took a reasonable guess that was mistaken.

LaPorte was a "Territory Boss" (Or a High level Capo as you would say) over a "Huge" vast area. He had some Crew Bosses (Capos as you would say) under him. Each Crew Boss had at least one made guy or more under him who "assisted" that person in running the Crew. Under them were the crew members who worked for them. LaPorte also had a few guys "direct" with him who were his Assistant/Driver/Bodyguard type guys who would assist him directly.

Even if you take the example of Frank Calabrese. He was a Street Boss (Capo as you would say) of a Crew. Nick Calabrese was a made guy under Frank and his chief assistant. The other guys worked for them as collectors. That was a Juice Crew. Gambling Crews had more than one made guy under the Crew Boss (Capo as you would say) because it was a more involved operation.

The Outfit never used the exact same terminology as the New York 5 & their structure was slightly different. I know there is this argument that Chicago was "exactly like" New York but it is simply untrue. The Outfit never even had a position called "Consigliere". Ricca & Accardo were never referred to with that "Title". The Outfit was different from the very beginning. The Outfit never started out as a Mafia Family. The Outfit "evolved" into a Mafia Family as proven by your research that Capone was "Made" in 1928 by Masseria. Before that, the Capone Organization was "already" a huge thriving power in Chicago not being part of the Mafia.

[Villain]

If Catuara was under LaPorte he wouldn't have been a capo since LaPorte was the capo of the Chicago Heights and south suburbs. I can't say definitely that Catuara didn't switch crews, but for me it's easier to believe that the informants were confused and mistaken when they placed him in different crews. I say this because different files place Catuara in the Chinatown crews and the Chicago Heights crews AT THE SAME TIME. Considering the secrecy the Outfit maintained, I think some CI's took a reasonable guess that was mistaken.

LaPorte was a "Territory Boss" (Or a High level Capo as you would say) over a "Huge" vast area. He had some Crew Bosses (Capos as you would say) under him. Each Crew Boss had at least one made guy or more under him who "assisted" that person in running the Crew. Under them were the crew members who worked for them. LaPorte also had a few guys "direct" with him who were his Assistant/Driver/Bodyguard type guys who would assist him directly.

Even if you take the example of Frank Calabrese. He was a Street Boss (Capo as you would say) of a Crew. Nick Calabrese was a made guy under Frank and his chief assistant. The other guys worked for them as collectors. That was a Juice Crew. Gambling Crews had more than one made guy under the Crew Boss (Capo as you would say) because it was a more involved operation.

The Outfit never used the exact same terminology as the New York 5 & their structure was slightly different. I know there is this argument that Chicago was "exactly like" New York but it is simply untrue. The Outfit never even had a position called "Consigliere". Ricca & Accardo were never referred to with that "Title". The Outfit was different from the very beginning. The Outfit never started out as a Mafia Family. The Outfit "evolved" into a Mafia Family as proven by your research that Capone was "Made" in 1928 by Masseria. Before that, the Capone Organization was "already" a huge thriving power in Chicago not being part of the Mafia.

Nice examples and i agree. Nick never had the brains for making money except for killing people and thats why Frank was always above him, no matter if they were on the same level according to CN standards...there were no operational stuff...it was one above the other since we are talking about Chicago here, not NY, and it seems most of researchers forget these types of differences....Nick talks about 6 separate crews....what about the Indiana crew...and by 2000 there were 5 crews, not 6....and by 2011 we are down to only four crews...so Nick obviously is not one of our greatest sources

[PolackTony]

Old man Cullotta says that Lombardo came under old time EP member John DeBiase but i find that suspicious since most of the leads point to Battaglia, Pranno and Alderisio. Who knows, maybe Cullotta saw Lombardo being closely associated with some of the old time EP members in later years and created his own opinion?! Or maybe they all operated as a whole faction, mean the West Side mob?

Fred Pascente talked about DeBiase as like the "boss" of the Grand Ave neighborhood in the 1950s. Seems to me that after the old Grand Ave crew moved its power base to Elmwood Park, DeBiase remained as the top guy calling the shots in the Patch once Capezio died, as DeBiase was still living at Grand and Artesian in 1955. So maybe Cullotta is referring to the period when Lombardo was still an associate and a neighborhood crook and tough guy when he makes that claim. DeBiase was like the "godfather" of the neighborhood in this era, as Lombardo became in later years, and thus any hoodlum in the area was "under" him in that sense. Then later in the 60s Lombardo was actually made under Alderisio, of course.

DeBiase is a very interesting figure, as he seems to be the one bridging the gap in the Grand Ave Patch between the old Grand Ave crew and the modern Grand Ave crew. Very little info on him out there following the 1950s that I've seen.

[Confederate]

I assume you're talking about Johnny "Bananas" DeBiase. He was born in January in 1901. He was known to bankroll robbers, burglars & high jackers. Sounds like a typical Grand Avenue guy. However, he did live in Oak Park. Don't know when he moved there.

[PolackTony]

I assume you're talking about Johnny "Bananas" DeBiase. He was born in January in 1901. He was known to bankroll robbers, burglars & high jackers. Sounds like a typical Grand Avenue guy. However, he did live in Oak Park. Don't know when he moved there.

Yes in the 60s I believe he seems to have moved to Oak Park. In 1955 the Tribune had him still living at Artesian and Grand which is where he grew up.

[Confederate]

I assume you're talking about Johnny "Bananas" DeBiase. He was born in January in 1901. He was known to bankroll robbers, burglars & high jackers. Sounds like a typical Grand Avenue guy. However, he did live in Oak Park. Don't know when he moved there.

Yes in the 60s I believe he seems to have moved to Oak Park. In 1955 the Tribune had him still living at Artesian and Grand which is where he grew up.

You know what would be a good for you? Captive City by Ovid Demaris. There are some exaggerations in the book about Numbers & a couple other things here & there, but overall it is a great book about the Chicago Outfit & how it's really a "Syndicate" that "encompasses" the Mafia in Chicago.
I like it because the Author gives a lot of detail about who controls what areas, explains the structure in a reasonably intelligent way & gives good personal detail about individuals. In addition, he doesn't approach the Outfit with all that Sicilian Obsession, but rather approaches it from it's actual origins in a more realistic way up through 1969.

[Villain]

Old man Cullotta says that Lombardo came under old time EP member John DeBiase but i find that suspicious since most of the leads point to Battaglia, Pranno and Alderisio. Who knows, maybe Cullotta saw Lombardo being closely associated with some of the old time EP members in later years and created his own opinion?! Or maybe they all operated as a whole faction, mean the West Side mob?

Fred Pascente talked about DeBiase as like the "boss" of the Grand Ave neighborhood in the 1950s. Seems to me that after the old Grand Ave crew moved its power base to Elmwood Park, DeBiase remained as the top guy calling the shots in the Patch once Capezio died, as DeBiase was still living at Grand and Artesian in 1955. So maybe Cullotta is referring to the period when Lombardo was still an associate and a neighborhood crook and tough guy when he makes that claim. DeBiase was like the "godfather" of the neighborhood in this era, as Lombardo became in later years, and thus any hoodlum in the area was "under" him in that sense. Then later in the 60s Lombardo was actually made under Alderisio, of course.

DeBiase is a very interesting figure, as he seems to be the one bridging the gap in the Grand Ave Patch between the old Grand Ave crew and the modern Grand Ave crew. Very little info on him out there following the 1950s that I've seen.

Yeah i havent read that book long time now, but I also remember Pascente talking about some other interesting stuff, like when they were kids around Taylor St and they were fighting some other youngsters from Grand Av, and how they yelled at each other stuff like "We have Mooney!" or "We have Joe B!". Thats another interesting example regarding the territorial separation between the crews, meaning even the youngest generation was aware about it and it seems that it was some type of different mentality in Chicago. In New York and other families, the crews usually operate/operated in each others areas, but not in Chicago. I mean there were still few half-open areas like Cicero, Rogers Park, C City and possibly Chinatow in which other members from different crews were allowed to operate, obviously for a certain percentage given to both the local district and territorial bosses.

For example when Lenny Patrick transferred to Rogers Park, he had to give percentage from his procceedings to Prio aka the overall boss of the north, and also to DiVarco and even to Kruse since Patrick also received few ops around Lake County.

Thanks for your opinion and additional info on DeBiase and yeah i agree regarding he being one of the old school players from around Grand, which also included Accardo, Capezio, Matteis, Guida, the Aloisio bros, the Mesi bros and Borcia. In fact, some old files regarding the early 30s connect Accardo, the Mesi bros and Borcia to the Mangano group from that same area, so it is possible that DeBiase also belonged to that same crew. I also think that DeBiase had a brother or cousin Frank DeBiase who was also involved in the rackets during those days.

One old time boss Mike the Pike Heitler was closely associated with the old Grand Av boys and this guy also had a lot of interests all around EP. So in 1931, Mangano, Capezio and Accardo eliminated old man Heitler and took over everything which he previously possessed, and thats when the Cerone clan comes into play.

Tony Jerfita and Joe Provenzano (possibly Loverdes and DeGeorges guys) also came from Grand Av but they also had a lot of interests around EP and they were both killed in 1932. Thats why i believe that sometime between 1932 and 1935, the Accardo/Capezio crew broke off from the Mangano group and created their own separate crew aka the EP crew.