Capone and the Mafia

[DPG]

Heres some additional info regarding early operations between Madden and the Outfit down in Florida...

The proceeds from the sell of this track were deposited into the Arkansas Trust Bank in Hot Springs in the form of a cashiers check. At the time it was the biggest transaction ever made at the bank. This money was eventually used for Madden to make two separate investments in Hot Springs. Once again I’m working so I don’t have the info in from of me but the trail from this money proves that contrary to everyone’s belief that Madden Lorded over the town of Hot Springs, he was only invested in two establishments in the whole town. And he did not gain control of the wire service until he was forced to sell his interests in order to allow the gambling in Hot Springs to reopen after the elections of 1958(once again off the top of my head) and the wire was shut down in August of 1960 after Madden was forced to appear before Congress.

I think you may have been who supplied me with a newspaper article that claims Madden also staffed the Southern Club with imported people from Chicago.

I’m working on a Madden timeline ATM. With the help on Snakes I’ve requested Maddens FBI files and should be able to fill in some holes and finish the project soon I hope.

[Villain]

Heres some additional info regarding early operations between Madden and the Outfit down in Florida...

The proceeds from the sell of this track were deposited into the Arkansas Trust Bank in Hot Springs in the form of a cashiers check. At the time it was the biggest transaction ever made at the bank. This money was eventually used for Madden to make two separate investments in Hot Springs. Once again I’m working so I don’t have the info in from of me but the trail from this money proves that contrary to everyone’s belief that Madden Lorded over the town of Hot Springs, he was only invested in two establishments in the whole town. And he did not gain control of the wire service until he was forced to sell his interests in order to allow the gambling in Hot Springs to reopen after the elections of 1958(once again off the top of my head) and the wire was shut down in August of 1960 after Madden was forced to appear before Congress.

I think you may have been who supplied me with a newspaper article that claims Madden also staffed the Southern Club with imported people from Chicago.

I’m working on a Madden timeline ATM. With the help on Snakes I’ve requested Maddens FBI files and should be able to fill in some holes and finish the project soon I hope.

Yeah, long time ago you and I had one quite productive chat regarding the whole situation and i think one part of it can be found in my article on Alex...as for the rest, i need to go through my history which is a lot of "work" lol

Btw i think this file corresponds with your last info...

[DPG]

Heres some additional info regarding early operations between Madden and the Outfit down in Florida...

The proceeds from the sell of this track were deposited into the Arkansas Trust Bank in Hot Springs in the form of a cashiers check. At the time it was the biggest transaction ever made at the bank. This money was eventually used for Madden to make two separate investments in Hot Springs. Once again I’m working so I don’t have the info in from of me but the trail from this money proves that contrary to everyone’s belief that Madden Lorded over the town of Hot Springs, he was only invested in two establishments in the whole town. And he did not gain control of the wire service until he was forced to sell his interests in order to allow the gambling in Hot Springs to reopen after the elections of 1958(once again off the top of my head) and the wire was shut down in August of 1960 after Madden was forced to appear before Congress.

I think you may have been who supplied me with a newspaper article that claims Madden also staffed the Southern Club with imported people from Chicago.

I’m working on a Madden timeline ATM. With the help on Snakes I’ve requested Maddens FBI files and should be able to fill in some holes and finish the project soon I hope.

Yeah, long time ago you and I had one quite productive chat regarding the whole situation and i think one part of it can be found in my article on Alex...as for the rest, i need to go through my history which is a lot of "work" lol

Btw i think this file corresponds with your last info...

Yep he backed that group against another group led by a man named Hoff. Hoof won and shut down all gambling in the town until Madden sold all interests in the town. Madden relented for for the good of the gambling community.

After this he established the race wire. Once Hoff caught wind of this he sent Richard Galantas(of Frank Nash/Kanas City Massacre fame, but that’s a story for another day) to travel to the buyou and put pressure on Poretto’s operations in order to force him to the negotiating table in the hope that they could take the wire from Madden. After this is when Poretto came to town and then the Camel came to Maddens rescue.

[Confederate]

Guzik wasn't just a bookkeeper, he was the head of the "connection crew" before Murray Humphreys and Gus Alex. So he was the equivalent of a capo and a top adviser.

I completely agree again, thanks.

Yes, that makes complete sense & is the reason why this pattern continued onward with Humphreys & Alex. Do you have any evidence as to who the others were under Guzik in the "Connection" crew besides Humphreys?

I think Villain already made a post about Guzik and his crew.

Can You or Villain point me in the direction of that post?

[Villain]

Guzik wasn't just a bookkeeper, he was the head of the "connection crew" before Murray Humphreys and Gus Alex. So he was the equivalent of a capo and a top adviser.

I completely agree again, thanks.

Yes, that makes complete sense & is the reason why this pattern continued onward with Humphreys & Alex. Do you have any evidence as to who the others were under Guzik in the "Connection" crew besides Humphreys?

I think Villain already made a post about Guzik and his crew.

Can You or Villain point me in the direction of that post?

Its in Bs understanding Chicago thread

[Villain]

Here it is...first comes the Guzik crew and then Humphreys' crew...

In 1931, Capones brother and overall boss of the South Side and Cicero mob, Ralph, went to prison, followed by Capones top adviser Jake Guzik who in turn was indicted on tax evasion charges that same year. So it was time for Phil D'Andrea to become the new overall boss of the so-called South Side mob that controlled the First Ward, Loop and Near South Side, including Chinatown, followed by Cicero and the South Side.

The Chinatown area was under the jurisdiction of D'Andreas protege Bruno Roti Sr, while the Loop and Near South Side belonged to the Guzik group. While in prison, Guziks interests were overseen by his older brother Harry.

Phil D'Andrea active (1925 - 1952), capo (1931), overall or territorial boss (1932 - 1943, 1947 - 1952)

Jake Guzik active (1925 -1955), crew boss (1928 - 1930) member of the ruling administration (1931; 1935 -1955)

Harry Guzik - acting crew boss under capo Phil D'Andrea (1931), official crew boss (1932 - 1935)

Crew members (1931 - 1936): Sam Guzik, Hyman Levine, Louis Lipshultz, Maxie and Jack Eisen, Joe Epstein, Charlie Tolposky, Sam, George and Gus Alex, John Ferraro, Frank Ferraro, Mike Potson, James Cuba, Nick Biondi, Frank Locascio, Malcolm and James Clarke, Jim Mullen

In 1935 Guzik was out of prison and remained as one of the Outfits top advisors, and so his top lieutenant Hyman Levine took over as acting boss of the crew until 1948, when he received a stroke, remained paralyzed and couldnt speak for the rest of his life.

Hyman Levine active (1925 - 1948), crew boss (1935 - 1948)

Crew members (1936-1947): Harry Guzik, Malcolm Clarke, Louis Lipshultz, Maxie and Jack Eisen, Joe Epstein, Jens Larkin, Charlie Tolposky, Sam, Gus and George Alex, Frank Ferraro, John Ferraro, Tom Deveno, Mike Potson, Phil Katz, Frank Ryan, Joe Bagnola, Max Caldwell. By this time Fred Morelli from the First Ward also joined this crew since his former boss from South Side Dennis Cooney died in 1942.

During the late 40s and early 50s Guzik was still looked upon as one of the top leaders in the Outfit but during this period his prime crew boss Levine was out of the picture, followed by Malcolm Clarke and Harry Guzik who both retired at the time, while Larkin was previously eliminated. I also think that during this period Maxie Eisen also retired and later died.

In 1952, Guziks close associate and old time Capone member Phil D'Andrea died and was succeeded by Bruno Roti Sr as boss of the South Side mob.

So from this point on the younger generation took over the crew but now for the first time it was headed by Italian member. Frank Ferraro allegedly took over the old Guzik crew with Gus Alex being his prime lieutenant. Both of them knew Roti Sr since the old days and sometimes used to work for him.There were still some leftovers from the old days but now we have more rising Italians in the crew.

During this period Rotis son-in-law Frank Caruso together with his brothers were in charge of the Chinatown area, but reports say that by now Caruso was still a lieutenant, not a capo, and besides being direct with his father-in-law, he also answered to his buddies from the old days Ferraro and his lieutenant Alex. This means that the Chinatown crew merged with the large Guzik/Ferraro group, which in fact gave Ferraro huge influence among his peers in the Outfit.

In addition, in 1952 or 53, Roti Sr and the Outfits boss Tony Accardo made a plan to infiltrate several of Rotis and Ferraros crew members in the First Ward and they succeeded in doing it.

Frank Ferraro active (1930s -1964) capo (1948 - 1956) underboss (1957 - 1964)

Crew members (1948 - 1956): Gus, Sam and George Alex, Frank Ryan, Joe Epstein, Fred Morelli, Phil Katz, Louis, Joe, Mike and Tom Briatta, Louis, Frank and Tony Tornabene, Augie Circella, Louis Arger, Pete Kokenes, Max Dolgin. Durind the early 1950s Kokenes transfered from the former Paul Labriola crew.

Members from the Chinatown and First Ward under the jurisdiction of Roti Sr and Ferraro: Frank, Morris and Pete Caruso, Pat Marcy, John D'Arco, Sam Roti, Fred Roti, Tony Munizzo, Charles Bertucci, Dominick Scalfaro, Benjamin Jacobson, Edward Joyce, Dominick Scalfaro

In 1956 Guzik died followed by Roti Sr in 1957, and so Ferraro was bumped up to the underboss position, while Alex received his first high stature as being Ferraros overseer of the old South Side faction.

In addition, it seems that from this point on Caruso's crew began to operate separately from the old Guzik crew, but still under the jurisdiction of the representative for the South Side mob Gus Alex and the new underboss Ferraro.

Heres how the old Guzik crew looked like from 1957 until 1964

Frank Ferraro - underboss for the whole organization

Gus Alex active (mid 1930s - 1991), territorial boss (1957 - 1970), member of ruling administration (1971 - 1991) - acting territorial boss for Ferraro for the whole South Side mob. In plane words, Alex took Rotis and D'Andreas previous positions.

Louis Briatta active (1930s - 1962) crew boss (1957 - 1962) - crew boss for Ferraro and Alex over the old Guzik/Ferraro crew. I labeled Briatta as crew boss since i dont have any official information if he was ever an official capo, although most of his actions confirmed very similar stature

Crew members (1957 - 1962): Sam Alex, Louis, Tony and Frank Tornabene, Nick Kokenes, Louis Arger, George and Nick Bravos, John Varlas, Pete Kokenes, August Circella, Frank Tornabene, Dominick Laino, Sid Frazin, George Pappas, John Fezekas, John and George Photakis, Phil Scher, Joe, Mike and Tom Briatta

In 1964 Ferraro died, but Alex remained as the overall boss of the South Side mob, same as Caruso as capo of the Chinatown crew. By 1963, Alexs crew boss around the Loop and Near South Side Louie Briatta retired because of serious health issues and so in his place came Pat Marcy who by now was in charge of the First Ward but now he also received the Loop, while Caruso absorbed the Near South Side.

Pat Marcy active (1940s - 1991) crew boss (1964 - 1970) - I labeled Marcy as crew boss because i dont believe that he was an official capo, but instead he took care of Alex's jurisdiction over the group, since many of these fellas brought cash, took adice or asked for protection from Marcy.

Crew members: Fred Roti, John D'Arco, Richard Cain, Ignatius Spachese, Augie Circella, Nick Kokenes, Willie Lamnatos, John Valsamolis, John Carone, Gust Koroveses, George and Nick Bravos

By the mid 60s, Alex asked one powerful capo from the West Side area Fiore Buccieri to help with their collections around the Loop, mainly because most of Marcys associates were political fixers and bookmakers, not musclemen or enforcers. By the late 1960s, Alex ordered for most of crew's illegal operations around the Loop and Near South Side to be closed down temporarily, so thats when the Buccieri crew from the west side area began taking over many of Alexs interests and the old South Side mob in general.

After awhile, or by the early 70s, the old South Side mob was almost finished, with Alex, Caruso, Marcy, Roti and one Lenny Patrick being the last of the Mohicans.

By now Alex took over Guziks previous position on the ruling administration as senior adviser, with Marcy and Roti being his top lieutenants in the First Ward.

In 1979, Caruso retired because of health issues and so his territory and what was left of his crew, was absorbed by the Buccieri group.

Back in 1959, Giancana ordered for Lenny Patrick to answer directly to Alex and from that point on Patrick operated as one of Alexs quite successful crew bosses in Lawndale and also in Rogers Park on the North Side, until 1990 when Patrick became informer and brought down his old boss. During the same time period both Marcy and Roti also had serious problems with the government, and so Marcy died during his trial, while his buddy Roti was sentenced to prison.

History of the so-called Murray Humphreys crew..

The crew's first boss was known as Dennis Cooney whose connections to the Capone mob and later the Chicago Outfit went all the way to the days before Prohibition.

Cooney's first "headquartes" was the South Side area where he made close connections with Big Jim Colosimo, mainly because their main and mutual racket was prostitution. From that point on Cooney also received interests around the Loop and Near South Side.

Conney continued the so-called tradition by being closely connected with the leading Italian element from around the South Side, first with Colosimo, later with John Torrio and in the end with Al Capone. So by the late 1920s, when Capone began unifying most of the gangs around Chicago, Conney also created his own crew which was mostly Anglo-Saxon, followed by few Jewish and Italian members. From that point on, besides prostitution, few of Cooneys new ventures were the policy and numbers rackets, followed by union racketeering and extortion.

During the same time, legend goes that one young hoodlum from the South Side known as Murray Humphreys was making problems to the Capone mob by allegedly hijacking some of their trucks. Story goes that he was brought before Capone and Humphreys life was spared, and was told to report to Dennis Cooney.

In addition, in 1932, same as the Guzik crew, Cooney's crew was also placed under the jurisdiction of the new boss od the South Side mob Phil D'Andrea. During this period the Cooney crew controlled the First Ward and allegedly donated a lot of cash to the Italian-American union, previously known as the Unione Siciliani.

Dennis Cooney active (1910's - 1942) crew boss (late 1920's - 1936) semi-retired (1936 - 1942) died (1942)

Crew members (late 1920's - 1936) - Sam Hunt, Julius, Caesar and Leo Benvenuti, Murray Humphreys, Ralph Pierce, Fred Morelli, James Fawcett, Martin Quirk, Danny Stanton, Jack Nevills, Robert McCullough, Sam Manno, Willie Niemoth, Louis Dorman

By 1936, Cooney was semi-retired and became the crew's elder statesman and so there were two cadidates for Cooneys number one man and those were Sam Hunt and Danny Stanton, but since Hunt had more seniority, he was looked upon as the next leader by the rest of the crew. This created some type of anger in Stanton and some of his associates but everyone kept quiet until Conney was still alive.

Cooney died in 1942 and thats when all hell broke loose. The crew instantly divided on two groups, one being under Hunt which included Humphreys, the Benvenuti brothers and Ralph Pierce, and second group was under Stanton who was followed by Quirk, McCullough and Louis Dorman. In 1943, Stanton, Quirk and Dorman were all killed and so the conflict was finished forever. After the death of Stantons, Hunts number one guy Humphreys became his prime lieutenant in the union racketeering business.

In addition, the crew's main guy in the numbers and policy rackets Julius Benvenuti died in 1945 out of natural causes and so his lucrative operations were inherited by his two brothers and also the so-called Manno clan. Also after Cooneys death and after the conflict, Fred Morelli from the First Ward joined the Guzik crew.

Sam Hunt - active (mid 1920s - 1954) official crew boss (1943 - 1955) inactive (1955) died (1956)

Crew members (1943 - 1953): Murray and Ernest/Jack Humphreys, Ralph Pierce, Pat, Sam, Tom, Fred and Nick Manno, Caesar and Leo Benvenuti, Pete Tremont (died in 1956), Hyman Godfrey, Albert Capizzi, Sam Pardy, Tom Pierson, Charles and Joe DiCaro, William McGuire

During the early 1950s there was some conflict between the Outfits top bosses Ricca and Accardo, and reports show that some capos and crew bosses began taking sides. For example Ross Prio from the North Side together with D'Andreas successor Bruno Roti Sr followed by Sam Hunt, both representing the South Side faction, joined Accardo in the complete takeover of the Bartenders and waiters union, by leaving out Riccas West Side mob under Giancana and Battaglia.

So both Roti Sr and Hunt were betrayed by some of their underlings and the whole scheme was uncovered which resulted with the 1954 deaths of two of Accardos enforcers and later the beef was sqaushed. From that point on, Roti Sr's faction was overseen by the guys who probably uncovered the scheme to Ricca and Battaglia, meaning Humphreys and his close associates from the Guzik crew, Frank Ferraro and Gus Alex.

So that same year or in 1954, Humphreys succeeded Hunt as the new boss of the crew, while by 1955 Hunt was in New York and died the next year. In addition, by 1956 the so-called Manno clan began having more than few problems with the goverment and so during the following years most of their operations were shut down.

Murray Humphreys active (late 1920s - 1965) crew boss 1954 - 1957) advisor (1957 - 1965) died (1965)

Crew members (1954 - 1957): Ralph and Frank Pierce, Hyman Godfrey, Ernest/Jack Humphreys, Pete Tremont, Pat, Sam, Tom and Fred Manno, Sam Pardy, Charles and Joe DiCaro, Gus Zappas, Albert Capizzi, Ralph Rizza, George Rubin, Tom Pierson, William McGuire, Andrew Hodo, Wallace and Eddie Jefferson

In 1957, the boss of the South Side Roti Sr. died and his position was taken by the two bosses of the old Guzik crew Ferraro and Alex, with the first one being the number two guy under the new boss Giancana, while Humphreys became the senior adviser for both the "underboss" and the overall boss of the South Side mob which was Alex. Besides being their main advisor, Humphreys also had the last word on all union matters.

From that point on, Humphrey's main guy or personal crew boss became Ralph Pierce but the thing was that Pierce didnt answer only to Humphreys but instead he also answered to Alex.

Frank Ferraro died in 1964, followed by Murray Humphreys in 1965, and from that point on the West Side mob completely took over the top administration, while Alex remained as boss of the First Ward and South Side Mob until 1970. Some reports say that by the late 60s the old Joe Fusco crew was finished and some members such as the DeStefano bros Rocco and Frank joined the Pierce/Alex group.

Ralph Pierce active (late 1920s - 1974) crew boss (1957 - 1970) liasion (1971 - 1974) inactive (1975) died (1976)

Crew members (1957 - 1970): Hyman Godfrey, Charles and Joe DiCaro, Gus Zappas, William McGuire, Pat Manno, Pat Manno Jr, Frank Pierce, Ernest/Jack Humphreys, Erwin Harvey, George Rubin, Joe Melograno, Frank Capizzi, John Lorusso, Charles Carroll, Thomas Anderson, Melvin Baker, Charles Dart Jr., Malcom and Walter Coleman, James Irving, Daniel Gaines, Bernard Posner, Rocco and Frank DeStefano, Arthur and Mike Markovitz aka Louis and Mike Markle, Dana Nash, William Triplett, Gus Pope, Sammy Bell, Joe Whalan

By the end of the 1960s, Pierce's gambling empire was completely finished by the hand of the government, and many of his associates ended up in jail or switched to different crews. For example, Willie McGuire became close associate of the Inglesia aka English bros who by now fell under the Buccieri group, which during this period were also spreading their influence around the South Side. Also, some of the African-American operators decided to form their own and independent crews and stopped kicking up to the Outfit.

In 1971, the boss of what was left of the old South Side mob, Gus Alex was elevated to the senior advisor position which was among the top 3 members above the whole organization. From 1971until 1974 Pierce was looked upon as one of the most senior members and acted only as liasion or messenger between Alex and other high profile members, especially Pat Marcy, Les Kruse, Lenny Patrick and Frank Caruso. In 1975, Pierce developed serious health issues and his death in 1976 marked the end of the old Humphreys crew.

[B.]

No, Los Angeles wasn't subordinate to Chicago. The Lucchese Family represented L.A. on the Commission. L.A. had a close relationship with a number of Families, including Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Pueblo, Dallas, the other California Families, Lucchese and the Genovese Families.

Thanks a lot. Im not sure but i think i remember seeing some files regarding Giancana and Tommy Brown discussing or being involved on the west coast

The Gagliano/Lucchese family officially represented the Los Angeles Family on the Commission, while San Francisco was repped by the Bonanno family and San Jose by the Profaci/Colombo family. Chicago did have strong informal influence in Los Angeles through Roselli and Fratianno (both high-ranking members even when they were "only" soldiers) which can't be ignored, but it wasn't official during the Commission years.

We know from Bompensiero and now also a San Fran source that Al Capone helped mediate a conflict in the California mafia at a Chicago meeting shortly after Capone became boss, though we don't know if other US bosses were there or if it was just between Chicago and California. It's possible St. Louis or Detroit were also involved, as John Mirabella attended (he was also at the 1928 Cleveland meeting). Side note, but Mirabella is interesting, as he was involved with both the Detroit and St. Louis families (which were closely related) and was important enough in the late 1920s and early 1930s to attend these two high-level meetings, but by the 1960s he was an obscure soldier in St. Louis.

Given this meeting resulted in the murder of LA boss Ardizzone, we can be sure that the Commission approved of this meeting and if other Commission members weren't directly involved, they may have delegated Capone as their representative. We have seen other instances where the Commission appoints a representative to handle a specific issue.

Espositos group which included younger guys such as Ricca, Roselli or Mops Volpe, obviously played a major role in the so-called creation of the Capone Mob, meaning i see Esposito playing the same role as Colosimo, Yale and Torrio. When Esposito got killed, it seems that Capone doubled his "army" and political connections, with Ricca being his main contact with the old timers or the Sicilians, while Volpe was his personal assistant within their organization. So this again raises the question on whether Ricca was made before Capone, since like you already said, he also felt quite comfortable with the bosses? Same question goes for Volpe who in turn was also a big player during the 20s...although if guys like Ricca or Volpe were made before Capone, then its quite possible that Esposito had much higher stature then just being a simple soldier right?! Or maybe he was one of those "Chicago soldiers" who controlled larger areas and also had several made guys beneath him?

Also, since Esposito was a made guy and was closely connected to them, I wonder if he represented the south side group also, meaning the Colosimo/Torrio/Capone mob, or maybe they were represented by the bosses themselves, meaning D'Andrea, Merlo or Lombardo which is more possible? OR maybe there was another officially made rep for the South faction before Capone, someone like Torrio or maybe even Colosimo? I mean in 1928 Capone "instantly" received the capodecina stature and the privilege to make his own people.....These are just few of the many important and unanswered questions...

Some good ideas to consider.

Frankie Yale was a Masseria/Genovese capodecina, so his role would have been quite a bit different from Esposito in Chicago, though his visits to Chicago and the fact that he had an associate (Capone) living in Chicago is pretty interesting. In theory it would be like a captain of an NYC crew who has an associate living/operating full-time in Florida or California, which isn't uncommon, or even the Bonanno member Amarante who lived in Chicago in recent decades is a good example. Not that these men can be compared on an individual level to Capone, but the same protocol would apply.

Capone wouldn't have needed representation by anyone in Chicago given he was a Masseria associate and was represented by Yale and Masseria, but Colosimo and Torrio may very well have been represented by local Chicago mafia leaders. Capone would have needed friends in the local mafia, though, which we know he had. I do wonder about Capone's transfer, though. If he was made and promoted to capodecina under Masseria in 1928, when did he officially transfer to Chicago? Immediately before he became boss in 1931? From Gentile's memoir, it sounds like Capone may have still been part of the Masseria family at the time of Masseria's murder -- he was at least still closely allied with Masseria up to that point and was part of the murder plot along with Luciano, etc.

Not sure if Colosimo and Torrio were Chicago members or just associated (officially or unofficially) with the Chicago family, but they could be comparisons to Esposito for sure if that's the case. In the traditional mafia, a soldier was usually a leader unto himself, as membership was much more limited and selective (with Sicilian families being as small as ten total members). Esposito and others could very well have been influential as soldiers, though it's very unlikely that other soldiers reported to them within the mafia structure. Esposito could have been direct with Merlo earlier on, as we know they were close, though it's just speculation.

The thing is, because we know Esposito was a member of the Chicago mafia family by the early 1920s, anyone who was on record with Esposito would have belonged to the Chicago family as well. If Ricca and the other names you mentioned were associates of Esposito, they would have been placed with another Chicago member upon his death. If they were all members by 1928, they would have all been under a captain or direct with the admin if they weren't already in leadership positions themselves.

It also gets back to the functional vs. formal discussion, which is especially confusing in Chicago but in the 1920s their protocol was no doubt more traditional. If Esposito's associates were inducted while he was still alive, they could still work for him on an operational level while holding the same formal rank in the mafia. He wouldn't have had a right to give them orders within the mafia, but they could have been subordinate to him in specific business/crime. This is very common in the mafia, where a member can work for another member's sportsbetting, numbers, or loanshark operation while holding the same rank in the mafia structure. You can even have situations where a made member works for an operation banked by a non-member associate. This can apply to legitimate business, too, where a made member is employed by an associate or equal-rank member.

When Esposito died, Al Capone wouldn't have been able to swoop his associates up without permission from the Chicago family, so would be curious what the exact relationship was after Esposito's death. Given that multiple sources say Capone took some abuse from Aiello and waited until he was inducted and given permission by Masseria to kill Aiello, it's unlikely to me that Capone would have absorbed Esposito's men without Chicago's approval. Now, they could have worked for him in operations -- in the mafia, anyone can become partners with anyone else or work for them regardless of their formal affiliation. For example, if Ricca was a Chicago mafia associate or even a made member, he could have worked for Capone's operations without being a member of Capone's official decina and/or non-mafia organization.

It's interesting that Capone became a Masseria member and capodecina the same year that Yale was killed. Yale's crew appears to have gone to Augie Carfagno in NYC, but given that Capone was a Chicago-based associate of the NYC Yale crew, it's possible Yale's murder impacted Masseria's decision to induct and promote Capone.

I may have made a post about this question several years ago: Who do you think were the ten men Capone made in 1928? Ricca was one of them.

Is there a source that confirms Ricca was one of the ten? I haven't seen that but if that's true it would mean Ricca was never officially associated with Esposito or he was released when Esposito died.

I still find it very telling that Stefano Magaddino described Ricca as representative of the Chicago mafia's "Americanized" faction at the time that Salvatore LoVerde was boss (who Magaddino described as the head of the "Greaseball" faction) and that both men attended the high-level banquet with other national bosses. This suggests to me that Ricca was already a captain or admin member before Capone became boss.

[Antiliar]

There's no source that gives us the names of the ten men Capone was allowed to make. Ricca is on my list of guesses.

I think the Americanized faction was the Capone organization. Gentile told us how Ricca went to New York representing Capone and threatened them with planes.

[Villain]

There's no source that gives us the names of the ten men Capone was allowed to make. Ricca is on my list of guesses.

I think the Americanized faction was the Capone organization. Gentile told us how Ricca went to New York representing Capone and threatened them with planes.

Thats right, we can only guess on who were the ten men under Capone since we still dont have any hard evidence, at least I personally dont have any. I have evidences regarding some members being made by Capone but all of those fellas were second generation, meaning most of them were made around 1931/32. But if we look at some of Capones prime players from the mid and late 1920s, we might make more then few good guesses.

Speaking about guesses and evidences (this is mainly for the previous thread not this one), sometimes and i say only sometimes, we dont need hard evidences so we can label somebody a capo or a soldier. Lets take Ralph Capone for example, I personally (speaking for myself here) have never seen any file (maybe you or someone else have seen it) which states that Ralph was a capo BUT ive seen dozens of files which say that Ralph was a high level member of the Outfit and used to have many people beneath him.

Or Frankie Rio, again I personally still never managed to find any straight evidences regarding he being a capo or a underboss, but ive seen references such as "secretary for the Capone Mob" or high level member of the Capone mob, OR Bioff saying that Rio received the contracts so later he can spread them out, which was usually a job for the Outfits number two guy....or Campagna or even Charlie Fischetti, again i personally have never seen any hard proof regarding he being a capo during the 30s but ive seen numerous reports regarding he being in charge of certain areas and later during the 1940s, he became one of the top 3 guys or possibly the boss. He was also seen having meetings with bosses from other families at the time, and he first held court in Cicero and later in Lake County.

You are right about me previously not knowing that D'Andrea was succeeded by Roti as boss of the south BUT i already knew that D'Andrea controlled the Loop, First Ward and South Side even before i found that file and later it simply confirmed the whole situation in details...you see my point?

Now lets get back to the old discussion...

@B my man, i began wondering about you and good to see you back. Thanks for explaining the connections on the west coast.

I was thinking a lil bit about that whole representation thing....

I also believe that Capone had one boss or captain at the beginning and it was probably Yale, but what about when he arrived in Chicago? His "captain" at the time was obviously Torrio and it seems that the main connection was maintained between him and Yale. We dont know if Yale reached out to Torrio and said "hey i got two guys in trouble and so i would like for you to take them in" but it seems thats how things went down since both Capone and Agoglia were wanted for murder i think

Also as you already said, Torrio was probably connected to the local Mafia through his previous boss Colosimo. So my belief is that Colosimo was possibly represented by the boss himself, meaning Merlo, same as Torrio. The only proof which i have is the pic of Merlo, Colosimo and Torrio celebrating, and even though its a weak evidence but still...and i also believe that the tradition went on even when Merlo died and Torrio fled the city shortly after, meaning Capone still sent money back home and still maintained close connections to the new boss of the Mafia in Chicago, meaning Lombardo. Proof for that is Lombardo saying to Capone not to pay any cash to NY because he was still not a member at the time.

So my point is that Colosimo, Torrio and Capone all had some old connections in NY and it is possible that they all sent some cash back to those same contacts. Afterall, Colosimo allegedly reached out to NY so he can bring Torrio to Chicago and to help him eliminate his enemies right?! Or at least thats how the mob lore goes....just one example. On top of that, they were also closely connected to the local Mafia and were probably represented by them, meaning i dont have any evidence regarding Colosimo and D'Andrea but we already know that he and Torrio were associated with Merlo, and later Capone with Lombardo.

This means that the Torrio/Capone mob sent money back home to the Mafia clan they were associated with, and they didnt pay any cash to the local Chicago Mafia regime at the time but instead they only cooperated between each other. Dont forget that these theories apply only for the time period before 1928 or before Capone became a made guy and a crew boss for the Mafia.

Now, as you already said, it seems that Capone couldnt wait to eliminate his obstacles and when he entered the Mafia, he went on a killing spree and by 1930 he was the most famous gangster not just in Chicago, or not just in the US but all around the world lol he ordered spectacular killings and brought the attention of LE and mob on the highest level...he had to go on the Atlantic city meeting and he went to prison on that gun charge.....so my point is that Ricca was probably Capones voice on those meetings between the Americanized and old school groups.

Also as i previously said in some different threads, Capones ten made men were very different from those in New York or other families, meaning these guys controlled large areas and while eliminating their enemies, they controlled even larger areas. The old Capone mob functioned like a "gang" (crew of associates with a leader), meaning there was a boss, few top lieutenants and the rest followed orders. So nothing really changed later when Capone became a "capodecina", meaning he was still sending cash back home and he was still the boss of his own group, although this time they had connections all over the country, not just NY.

One proof for thier type of structure is Gentile who said that by 1930, Loverde was the representative (obviously for the old school guys) but Capone was the real power with Ricca being his most trusted associate (the Americanized faction). Ricca and Capone knew each other even before Capone got made and the main proof for that is Capone being Riccas best man in January 1927. Also we must not forget that Ricca probably inherited all of the political connections and areas that were previously controlled by his former boss, the late Esposito.

From the Roselli files we can see that Esposito was closely connected to the Capone mob and i also believe that he was also connected to Yale. They were both killed in 1928. So my point is that during those days or by 1930, Ricca was Capones second in command within their "decina" and so he had the power and backing to talk to anyone, and I also agree that all of these situations or should i say, absorbing crews and interests were probably approved by the Masseria regime since it was in their own interest for Capone to become bigger and bigger.

This also further confirms the territorial boss theory and also the theory that the Outfit never had a "consigliere", or in other words, they continued to operate in almost the same manner even when Capone became the boss, meaning he was at the top with Ricca right beneath him, and since he had the whole city for himself, he possibly divided it in the old Chicago underworld tradition, meaning the city was always divided on territories, and in Capones case i strongly believe that he created four factions, or those same already existing previous factions which he managed to unite with or without force, north, west, south and the heights.

On top of that, the "gang"/loose tradition or mentality continued by having non-Italians in the upper ranks within his own organization and by not having any Sicilian type of inductions. We have information that during the Giancana era there was no Sicilian type of ceremonies and its not like Giancana suddenly nixed the whole thing, but instead thats the only time period for which we have some good inside FBI info that confirms the previous rumors and continuance on what went down during the previous decades.

If Giancana (US born Sicilian/Americanized) continued the same non-traditional way, than its quite possible that he was also made in the same fashion back in 1939, afterall he was sponsored by two mainlanders and his boss was also a mainlander at the time.

[Confederate]

There's no source that gives us the names of the ten men Capone was allowed to make. Ricca is on my list of guesses.

I think the Americanized faction was the Capone organization. Gentile told us how Ricca went to New York representing Capone and threatened them with planes.

Thats right, we can only guess on who were the ten men under Capone since we still dont have any hard evidence, at least I personally dont have any. I have evidences regarding some members being made by Capone but all of those fellas were second generation, meaning most of them were made around 1931/32. But if we look at some of Capones prime players from the mid and late 1920s, we might make more then few good guesses.

Speaking about guesses and evidences (this is mainly for the previous thread not this one), sometimes and i say only sometimes, we dont need hard evidences so we can label somebody a capo or a soldier. Lets take Ralph Capone for example, I personally (speaking for myself here) have never seen any file (maybe you or someone else have seen it) which states that Ralph was a capo BUT ive seen dozens of files which say that Ralph was a high level member of the Outfit and used to have many people beneath him.

Or Frankie Rio, again I personally still never managed to find any straight evidences regarding he being a capo or a underboss, but ive seen references such as "secretary for the Capone Mob" or high level member of the Capone mob, OR Bioff saying that Rio received the contracts so later he can spread them out, which was usually a job for the Outfits number two guy....or Campagna or even Charlie Fischetti, again i personally have never seen any hard proof regarding he being a capo during the 30s but ive seen numerous reports regarding he being in charge of certain areas and later during the 1940s, he became one of the top 3 guys or possibly the boss. He was also seen having meetings with bosses from other families at the time, and he first held court in Cicero and later in Lake County.

You are right about me previously not knowing that D'Andrea was succeeded by Roti as boss of the south BUT i already knew that D'Andrea controlled the Loop, First Ward and South Side even before i found that file and later it simply confirmed the whole situation in details...you see my point?

Now lets get back to the old discussion...

@B my man, i began wondering about you and good to see you back. Thanks for explaining the connections on the west coast.

I was thinking a lil bit about that whole representation thing....

I also believe that Capone had one boss or captain at the beginning and it was probably Yale, but what about when he arrived in Chicago? His "captain" at the time was obviously Torrio and it seems that the main connection was maintained between him and Yale. We dont know if Yale reached out to Torrio and said "hey i got two guys in trouble and so i would like for you to take them in" but it seems thats how things went down since both Capone and Agoglia were wanted for murder i think

Also as you already said, Torrio was probably connected to the local Mafia through his previous boss Colosimo. So my belief is that Colosimo was possibly represented by the boss himself, meaning Merlo, same as Torrio. The only proof which i have is the pic of Merlo, Colosimo and Torrio celebrating, and even though its a weak evidence but still...and i also believe that the tradition went on even when Merlo died and Torrio fled the city shortly after, meaning Capone still sent money back home and still maintained close connections to the new boss of the Mafia in Chicago, meaning Lombardo. Proof for that is Lombardo saying to Capone not to pay any cash to NY because he was still not a member at the time.

So my point is that Colosimo, Torrio and Capone all had some old connections in NY and it is possible that they all sent some cash back to those same contacts. Afterall, Colosimo allegedly reached out to NY so he can bring Torrio to Chicago and to help him eliminate his enemies right?! Or at least thats how the mob lore goes....just one example. On top of that, they were also closely connected to the local Mafia and were probably represented by them, meaning i dont have any evidence regarding Colosimo and D'Andrea but we already know that he and Torrio were associated with Merlo, and later Capone with Lombardo.

This means that the Torrio/Capone mob sent money back home to the Mafia clan they were associated with, and they didnt pay any cash to the local Chicago Mafia regime at the time but instead they only cooperated between each other. Dont forget that these theories apply only for the time period before 1928 or before Capone became a made guy and a crew boss for the Mafia.

Now, as you already said, it seems that Capone couldnt wait to eliminate his obstacles and when he entered the Mafia, he went on a killing spree and by 1930 he was the most famous gangster not just in Chicago, or not just in the US but all around the world lol he ordered spectacular killings and brought the attention of LE and mob on the highest level...he had to go on the Atlantic city meeting and he went to prison on that gun charge.....so my point is that Ricca was probably Capones voice on those meetings between the Americanized and old school groups.

Also as i previously said in some different threads, Capones ten made men were very different from those in New York or other families, meaning these guys controlled large areas and while eliminating their enemies, they controlled even larger areas. The old Capone mob functioned like a "gang" (crew of associates with a leader), meaning there was a boss, few top lieutenants and the rest followed orders. So nothing really changed later when Capone became a "capodecina", meaning he was still sending cash back home and he was still the boss of his own group, although this time they had connections all over the country, not just NY.

One proof for their type of structure is Gentile who said that by 1930, Loverde was the representative (obviously for the old school guys) but Capone was the real power with Ricca being his most trusted associate (the Americanized faction). Ricca and Capone knew each other even before Capone got made and the main proof for that is Capone being Riccas best man in January 1927. Also we must not forget that Ricca probably inherited all of the political connections and areas that were previously controlled by his former boss, the late Esposito.

From the Roselli files we can see that Esposito was closely connected to the Capone mob and i also believe that he was also connected to Yale. They were both killed in 1928. So my point is that during those days or by 1930, Ricca was Capones second in command within their "decina" and so he had the power and backing to talk to anyone, and I also agree that all of these situations or should i say, absorbing crews and interests were probably approved by the Masseria regime since it was in their own interest for Capone to become bigger and bigger.

This also further confirms the territorial boss theory and also the theory that the Outfit never had a "consigliere", or in other words, they continued to operate in almost the same manner even when Capone became the boss, meaning he was at the top with Ricca right beneath him, and since he had the whole city for himself, he possibly divided it in the old Chicago underworld tradition, meaning the city was always divided on territories, and in Capones case I strongly believe that he created four factions, or those same already existing previous factions which he managed to unite with or without force, north, west, south and the heights.

On top of that, the "gang"/loose tradition or mentality continued by having non-Italians in the upper ranks within his own organization and by not having any Sicilian type of inductions. We have information that during the Giancana era there was no Sicilian type of ceremonies and its not like Giancana suddenly nixed the whole thing, but instead that's the only time period for which we have some good inside FBI info that confirms the previous rumors and continuance on what went down during the previous decades.

If Giancana (US born Sicilian/Americanized) continued the same non-traditional way, than its quite possible that he was also made in the same fashion back in 1939, after all he was sponsored by two mainlanders and his boss was also a mainlander at the time.

This is 100%. Perfectly explained. If anybody has any other contrary "verified" information, let them speak now or forever hold their peace.

[B.]

There's no source that gives us the names of the ten men Capone was allowed to make. Ricca is on my list of guesses.

I think the Americanized faction was the Capone organization. Gentile told us how Ricca went to New York representing Capone and threatened them with planes.

Okay, good to know, re: Ricca. If he wasn't already an associate or member of Chicago by 1928 he def seems like a solid candidate.

Magaddino's reference to the "Americanized" faction represented by Ricca alongside boss LoVerde's "Greaseball faction" at the high-level Chicago meeting would imply that the "Americanized" group was part of the Chicago family and also a recognized Cosa Nostra group given this was a meeting of national mafia leadership. Ricca spoke to Magaddino about high-level mafia politics, so either Ricca attended as a member of the Chicago family or a member of Capone's Masseria decina. The timeline could def allow for either one.

It again goes back to the question of when Capone and his decina officially transferred to Chicago from the Masseria group -- given that Ricca represented an Americanized faction in Chicago while LoVerde was still boss, it sounds like Ricca may have helped pave the way within the Chicago family before Capone transferred. Many possibilities, i.e. Capone may have already transferred to Chicago (though I lean away from this based on Gentile), Ricca was inducted by Capone and transferred prior to Capone himself, or Ricca was an existing Chicago member allied with Capone (but technically part of a separate family until Capone transferred).

Every family in the US, especially the more metropolitan families, were experiencing rapid Americanization by the late 1920s. The Chicago Sicilians were working with non-Italians and had already begun inducting non-Sicilians (Esposito) in addition to shifting cultural changes that affected every family, so Capone's takeover likely combined his own "non-mafia" racketeering organization, his Masseria decina, and an existing Americanized faction in the Chicago family that was allied with Capone. So the question would be who was part of this Americanized faction within the Chicago mafia? Ricca is a strong candidate based on his earlier relationship to Esposito and apparent representation of the "Americanized" faction under LoVerde.

It would also make sense for Capone to have had both his own "outside" group (his Masseria decina and "non-mafia" organization) plus a mafia group who could politically "open the doors" so-to-speak from inside the Chicago family. It might be a situation comparable to the Maranzano-Gagliano faction in NYC at the same time, where a minority group in the former Reina family (Gagliano's group) were secretly allied with Maranzano to take out Pinzolo. In Chicago, the Americanized faction in the Chicago family would have allied with Capone to take out the existing Sicilian leadership.

Speaking about guesses and evidences (this is mainly for the previous thread not this one), sometimes and i say only sometimes, we dont need hard evidences so we can label somebody a capo or a soldier. Lets take Ralph Capone for example, I personally (speaking for myself here) have never seen any file (maybe you or someone else have seen it) which states that Ralph was a capo BUT ive seen dozens of files which say that Ralph was a high level member of the Outfit and used to have many people beneath him.

This is a tough one, because I know myself it's not fun to make a chart or list filled with ranks labeled "maybe" or "probably", and I'm all for speculating that someone "could have been" a captain, but as a researcher I try to be careful about labeling someone's formal position. The mafia during all eras and incarnations has a way of being deceptive about rank.

At the end of the day it's not world peace, especially when it's just a board discussion, but in terms of accuracy I think it's best to lean conservative and go with the exact description the source gave. For example I have some issues with the Detroit book "Vinnitta" -- he gives everyone a specific position in the mafia hierarchy during early years where we simply don't have reliable information on ranks and titles... let alone membership! The FBI, despite their imperfections, has great standards for this that we can use as a guideline.

Ralph Capone very well could have had a rank, so not discounting the possibility he was a capo, just making a broad point about research here. I think Antiliar and CC's May 2014 Informer issue set a high standard in this regard -- they easily could have created hierarchy charts but they played it conservative while also providing a wealth of info, inviting us as readers to draw our own conclusions. That was for the published article, though -- I know in casual conversation they are more open to discussion.

This also further confirms the territorial boss theory and also the theory that the Outfit never had a "consigliere", or in other words, they continued to operate in almost the same manner even when Capone became the boss, meaning he was at the top with Ricca right beneath him, and since he had the whole city for himself, he possibly divided it in the old Chicago underworld tradition, meaning the city was always divided on territories, and in Capones case i strongly believe that he created four factions, or those same already existing previous factions which he managed to unite with or without force, north, west, south and the heights.

I definitely buy the idea that their crews were always more or less defined by territory, but I'm not understanding what confirms that Chicago never had a consigliere. It's certainly possible, as Stefano Magaddino was a boss since the early 1920s and was recorded saying he never had a consigliere, plus other groups seem to have gone without consiglieri, especially later.

For me, the only thing that would confirm that they never had a consigliere would be a member source saying those exact words, like Magaddino did: "Chicago never had a consigliere." Otherwise it's just too hard to know without an inside member source explicitly commenting on the position.

I agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be any definitive info indicating that they DID have a consigliere, either. The consigliere is also a somewhat amorphous position and informants have described it ranging from an ineffective senior member with little influence to someone equal in power to the boss, so without someone commenting on it directly it's almost impossible to figure out as an outsider. It's a position that tends to be almost entirely related to mafia politics and not the functional "organized crime" / racketeering side of the group so even more than positions like boss and underboss it requires a member source.

I also believe that Capone had one boss or captain at the beginning and it was probably Yale, but what about when he arrived in Chicago? His "captain" at the time was obviously Torrio and it seems that the main connection was maintained between him and Yale. We dont know if Yale reached out to Torrio and said "hey i got two guys in trouble and so i would like for you to take them in" but it seems thats how things went down since both Capone and Agoglia were wanted for murder i think

I'll bet you're right that Capone had an unofficial point of contact in the Chicago family who he could go to for urgent matters, as he would have needed a local advocate as powerful as he was in his own right even as an "associate". We know that remote members of other families could go to the local boss for assistance even though they weren't officially with the local family. In addition to his mainlander friends, it sounds like Lombardo may have advocated for him to some degree and this could have factored into Lombardo telling Capone to stop paying tribute to Masseria -- in fact, that's a good theory, that Lombardo was attempting to put Capone on record with Chicago when he told Capone to stop paying NYC. Chicago wasn't like California and Florida where we typically see "remote" members/associates of different families operating, so it must have rubbed the Chicago mafia the wrong way to have a Masseria associate with as much power as Capone in their own city.

Also as i previously said in some different threads, Capones ten made men were very different from those in New York or other families, meaning these guys controlled large areas and while eliminating their enemies, they controlled even larger areas. The old Capone mob functioned like a "gang" (crew of associates with a leader), meaning there was a boss, few top lieutenants and the rest followed orders. So nothing really changed later when Capone became a "capodecina", meaning he was still sending cash back home and he was still the boss of his own group, although this time they had connections all over the country, not just NY.

I 100% agree with this. Capone definitely understood the political value of mafia membership, so along with inducting his friends, he would have inducted men who would have been capable leaders in their own right and having them as formal mafia members would give them more political power, especially when it came time for them to officially transfer to Chicago and dominate the organization. On a functional level within Capone's racketeering interests, it probably had little impact.

The confusion is which of Capone's allies were members of his ten man decina vs. which ones were existing members of the Chicago family pre-1931. At the end of the day Capone had influence with all of them, but it would be very interesting to know who transferred from his Masseria decina vs. who opened the gates for his leadership within the Chicago family before the decina officially transferred.

One proof for thier type of structure is Gentile who said that by 1930, Loverde was the representative (obviously for the old school guys) but Capone was the real power with Ricca being his most trusted associate (the Americanized faction). Ricca and Capone knew each other even before Capone got made and the main proof for that is Capone being Riccas best man in January 1927. Also we must not forget that Ricca probably inherited all of the political connections and areas that were previously controlled by his former boss, the late Esposito.

Yep, no doubt Capone's influence was impossible to ignore even in 1927. Even if it was mainly a sign of social friendship, Ricca's choice of best man had massive political implications. It's something we see with countless intermarriages, baptisms, and wedding arrangements in the mob. Sometimes it's done to solidify an alliance between members of two different groups, so if Ricca was a Chicago member/associate and Capone was a Masseria associate, this would have been a powerful statement.

@B my man, i began wondering about you and good to see you back. Thanks for explaining the connections on the west coast.

Thank you! Glad you're still kicking and ticking and I appreciate the discussion.

[Villain]

Speaking about guesses and evidences (this is mainly for the previous thread not this one), sometimes and i say only sometimes, we dont need hard evidences so we can label somebody a capo or a soldier. Lets take Ralph Capone for example, I personally (speaking for myself here) have never seen any file (maybe you or someone else have seen it) which states that Ralph was a capo BUT ive seen dozens of files which say that Ralph was a high level member of the Outfit and used to have many people beneath him.

This is a tough one, because I know myself it's not fun to make a chart or list filled with ranks labeled "maybe" or "probably", and I'm all for speculating that someone "could have been" a captain, but as a researcher I try to be careful about labeling someone's formal position. The mafia during all eras and incarnations has a way of being deceptive about rank.

At the end of the day it's not world peace, especially when it's just a board discussion, but in terms of accuracy I think it's best to lean conservative and go with the exact description the source gave. For example I have some issues with the Detroit book "Vinnitta" -- he gives everyone a specific position in the mafia hierarchy during early years where we simply don't have reliable information on ranks and titles... let alone membership! The FBI, despite their imperfections, has great standards for this that we can use as a guideline.

Ralph Capone very well could have had a rank, so not discounting the possibility he was a capo, just making a broad point about research here. I think Antiliar and CC's May 2014 Informer issue set a high standard in this regard -- they easily could have created hierarchy charts but they played it conservative while also providing a wealth of info, inviting us as readers to draw our own conclusions. That was for the published article, though -- I know in casual conversation they are more open to discussion.

I understand but sorry you are a little bit wrong on that one. First you forgot to bold the "only sometimes" part meaning sometimes we dont have straight answers from members such as....this guy was a capo...or this guy was a consigliere, but we do have information about that same individual regarding his activities, associations, wealth etc.

So first we will see if that individual had any made guys beneath him and if so, how many? Im talking about a real crew, not some operational stuff....next, we will see the size of the area which that same individual controlled...we will also see if that individual was direct with the boss or followed protocol etc.

Sometimes you dont have straight answers about everything and thats why you have to put a little bit of sweat so you can find the answer.

I already gave one good example...i always knew that Phil D'Andrea was in charge of the Loop, First Ward and South Side and years later i found a doc which confirmed the whole situation....i was previously lucky? I dont think so since i have at least a dozen of additional "lucky" examples such as that one.

This also further confirms the territorial boss theory and also the theory that the Outfit never had a "consigliere", or in other words, they continued to operate in almost the same manner even when Capone became the boss, meaning he was at the top with Ricca right beneath him, and since he had the whole city for himself, he possibly divided it in the old Chicago underworld tradition, meaning the city was always divided on territories, and in Capones case i strongly believe that he created four factions, or those same already existing previous factions which he managed to unite with or without force, north, west, south and the heights.

I definitely buy the idea that their crews were always more or less defined by territory, but I'm not understanding what confirms that Chicago never had a consigliere. It's certainly possible, as Stefano Magaddino was a boss since the early 1920s and was recorded saying he never had a consigliere, plus other groups seem to have gone without consiglieri, especially later.

For me, the only thing that would confirm that they never had a consigliere would be a member source saying those exact words, like Magaddino did: "Chicago never had a consigliere." Otherwise it's just too hard to know without an inside member source explicitly commenting on the position.

I agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be any definitive info indicating that they DID have a consigliere, either. The consigliere is also a somewhat amorphous position and informants have described it ranging from an ineffective senior member with little influence to someone equal in power to the boss, so without someone commenting on it directly it's almost impossible to figure out as an outsider. It's a position that tends to be almost entirely related to mafia politics and not the functional "organized crime" / racketeering side of the group so even more than positions like boss and underboss it requires a member source.

No. We have already seen the Outfits hierarchy multiple times and they never had an official consigliere position and its wrong to place Ricca and Accardo on that position since both were commission reps and set all policies, and if someone so much likes to push that type of Sicilian position in Chicago, maybe he or she should only look at guys like Humphreys and Alex but the main problem is obvious since they were non-Italians, controlled their own territories and crews and were additionally involved in creating policies for the organization along with Ricca and Accardo.

Same thing applies for the Sicilian traditional rituals, there were none in Chicago during the old daysand this is also confirmed.

They had non-Italians in their ranks.

They were territorial.

Lots of differences which had nothing to do with CN

[B.]

I know you meant sometimes -- I was jumping off about mafia research in general, not you specifically, because ranks can be a dilemma for anyone who researches this stuff, especially the farther back you go.

I understood the point you were making and I agree sometimes you can get a good picture of someone's position from circumstantial info, though I am reluctant to assign someone a rank in the mafia hierarchy without an explicit statement from a high-placed source. Even with a source, we have some informants who have claimed a member held a certain rank but it conflicts with info from other reliable sources or can't be corroborated, so it's still a dilemma.

An example is the early Lucchese member informant who was close with Johnny Roselli (via prison) and claimed Roselli was once the underboss of the LA family. This came from a made NYC member who was close friends with Roselli, but none of the three Los Angeles member sources, two of whom had been captains, have mentioned him as underboss, though they all agree that he was the most powerful individual member in LA, rank or no rank (even as a member of a different family later). As a result we really can't list him as an underboss in good faith, but it doesn't feel right to throw him in with the other soldiers either.

Chris Christie's Detroit thread is another great example, as he was told there were eighteen captains in that family in the 1960s and upon deeper research he found that only two of them could be confirmed as captains and many of them could be ruled out. They were all influential soldiers (which makes them "lieutenants" in their own right), but not captains in the mafia hierarchy.

We don't have the member sources or taped statements from members to know whether Chicago had a consigliere at some point in their history or not. Ricca and Accardo may not have held that position or its equivalent, but to say that we we definitively know Chicago never had a consigliere position at any point in their history is impossible to know with the current sources. It'd be awesome if there was a source who said that, ala Magaddino in Buffalo, as it would put the discussion to bed.

[Villain]

We don't have the member sources or taped statements from members to know whether Chicago had a consigliere at some point in their history or not. Ricca and Accardo may not have held that position or its equivalent, but to say that we we definitively know Chicago never had a consigliere position at any point in their history is impossible to know with the current sources. It'd be awesome if there was a source who said that, ala Magaddino in Buffalo, as it would put the discussion to bed.

We already have that type of source, meaning if you want to see that type of, as you say, ala Magaddino source than maybe you should do a little bit of research on Humphreys. The guy said or unknowingly explained a lot of stuff on wiretaps, and you will notice that he is the perfect candidate for the so-called "consigliere" position since he was the one who made peace between warring factions or created clashes, and he was the one who advised both the boss and the underboss, and also every possible capo within their organization. He used to say "If you got problems, you come to us!" and if none of the members listened to him, than he took the problems straight to the top or to Ricca and Accardo.

BUT as you can see, Humphreys was a non-Italian and on top of that he controlled several crews and areas and also had the last word on all union matters. Alex later had the same role as Humphreys.

So the answer lies right there, with guys like Humphreys but they werent Italian and were slightly different than the east coast consiglieri in terms of power and control, meaning they were way more powerful and that is why Chicago never had a official "consigliere" status. Alex was the "consigliere" until 1992 and thats why I say "never".

Im not playing smart here but believe me...do a little research on Humphreys, especially read all of his wiretapped convos. I dont want for anyone around here to get me wrong but I always say that the Outfit needs a lot of thorough research so it can be understood and thats why Im concentrated only on them for the last decade, not on 10 families at the same time. We have a lot of good researchers around here regarding the rest of the families, meaning i have some good sources to compare my findings with, and I have to tell you again, Chicago was different.

[B.]

I understand you're saying Humphreys and Alex were defacto non-Italian "consiglieri" based on their duties and that this meant the Chicago family didn't need an Italian made member performing the duties of a consigliere, but I'm not understanding how that confirms the Chicago organization never had a single member in an official consigliere position throughout their history, especially in the early years where there are few if any member sources.

Is there a transcript where Murray Humphreys explicitly says the Chicago family never had a consigliere within the organization? If so, can you post it?

I'm not out to prove that Chicago did have a consigliere, only curious what information there is that confirms they never had one. As mentioned before, the duties of an official consiglieri can vary from relatively powerless to someone with power and influence near-equal to the boss. Sometimes they're prominent, other times they go completely under the radar. Even in the Genovese family we only know of one consigliere between 1932-1957, that being Alessandro Pandolfo, but he wasn't alive during that entire time frame and if not for a couple small comments by Valachi we wouldn't know he ever held the position.

Magaddino was recorded saying flat out that he never allowed a consigliere in his family because it was an elected position that could rival the power of the boss. There is no room to interpret it, but even with that definitive statement it only covers Magaddino's tenure as boss and not the years before and after his reign. Even with that statement we can't say that Buffalo never had a consigliere in its history, only that Magaddino didn't allow one during his first 40 years as boss.

I'm not seeing the evidence that Chicago never had an official consigliere in its history, as the absence of evidence isn't proof. I agree there doesn't seem to be much proof that they did have one either, but it's difficult to draw conclusions from the limited sources we have over such a large span of time.