"Patsy" (Donnie Brasco)

[Pogo The Clown]

But you just said Pistone and Massino are both lying about Brasco having been proposed for membership so why would the Feds have pulled him out if in fact he was not being considered for membership and thus not having to take part in a murder?


Pogo

[Confederate]

But you just said Pistone and Massino are both lying about Brasco having been proposed for membership so why would the Feds have pulled him out if in fact he was not being considered for membership and thus having to take part in a murder?


Pogo

That's exactly why he was pulled at the last minute. They even showed that in the movie. If Brasco (Pistone) could have been made without having to murder someone, the Feds would have been ecstatic. The murder contract given to him ended his "wiseguy" career. At least that's how it was shown in the movie.

[Ozgoz]

Bert, some sincere advice, post less.

Lol. All wiseguys are innocent. All rats are the devil. The FBI spend all their time scheming and are worse than the rats.

At this point we’re so far down the rabbit hole yes a short rest is the prescription.

[bert]

Bert, some sincere advice, post less.

Lol. All wiseguys are innocent. All rats are the devil. The FBI spend all their time scheming and are worse than the rats.

At this point we’re so far down the rabbit hole yes a short rest is the prescription.

How about you taking a long rest from you coming on during arguments to rubber stamp your friends posts? You're a jerk.

[bert]

Bert, some sincere advice, post less.

Lol. All wiseguys are innocent. All rats are the devil. The FBI spend all their time scheming and are worse than the rats.

At this point we’re so far down the rabbit hole yes a short rest is the prescription.

Come to think of it, whenever there is nay conversation about this on anyone, you want them to stay in, an argue that everyone is guilty of something.

[bert]

But you just said Pistone and Massino are both lying about Brasco having been proposed for membership so why would the Feds have pulled him out if in fact he was not being considered for membership and thus not having to take part in a murder?


Pogo

Because he had gone as far as he could and they had more than enough to indict and convict.

[Confederate]

But you just said Pistone and Massino are both lying about Brasco having been proposed for membership so why would the Feds have pulled him out if in fact he was not being considered for membership and thus not having to take part in a murder?


Pogo

Because he had gone as far as he could and they had more than enough to indict and convict.

I don't think that is correct. He was pulled because of the murder contract given to him. The Feds would have loved him to get made "without" the murder contract. It would have been extremely valuable to the Feds to have a one of their own as a made guy to continue getting new information about more LCN people in the future. They had to "draw the line" when it came to direct involvement in murder.

[B.]

Pogo already made all of the points I could have made, but to add to it, Joe Massino also instituted a rule that an associate had to be on record with the Bonanno member who proposed him for at least eight years before he could be made and this rule was specifically in response to Donnie Brasco being proposed and nearly made. Massino felt that an FBI agent would not stick around for eight years waiting to be made. He recorded himself discussing this with Vincent Basciano because Basciano broke the rule and inducted newer associates when Massino was in prison.

Another thing to consider about Pistone that would have made him a more viable candidate: many associates, even those being groomed for membership, cause a lot more trouble, get into more beefs, etc. Pistone had the Mirra issue later on, but overall as an FBI agent undercover he was well-behaved, kicked up money, and did what he was asked. These guys are continually getting headaches from their associates, so Pistone's conduct would have made Pistone a popular recruit along with the amount of time he had spent with these guys, his history with Mirra, Greca, etc.

If I remember right, in the original book Pistone said he was pulled off the street due to the three captains murders and increasing tension / violence in the Bonanno family. Because of Pistone's relationship to Napolitano, he was a major target for retaliation. As we know from mob wars, it is often associates of top members who get targeted as they are easier to get to.

Napolitano also wasn't killed for the Brasco situation, but because he was challenging the administration and threatened to go to war. This is actually supported by Pistone's first book, as Lefty Ruggiero says Napolitano and Massino (who had been on the same faction up until the three captain murders) were "at war". Lefty also said Napolitano was trying to become the new consigliere even though we know Cannone firmly held the position and would keep it for a few more years. Napolitano seems to have been on edge, as Pistone casually complained about Lefty to Napolitano around this time and Napolitano snapped back that he was fed up with Lefty and would "chop his legs off" if Pistone pressed the issue.

Massino also testified that Napolitano was supposed to be on the scene during the three captain murders, but fled shortly beforehand because he believed the "zip" faction was setting up Massino and Napolitano to be killed. Napolitano left through the door that Frank Lino escaped through and apparently left it open or unlocked which is why Lino fled so easily.

So it appears Napolitano was digging his own grave before Pistone even left the streets.

Also for comparison's sake, Big Lou Tartaglione first became an associate in the late 1970s and hung around Massino for a few years after, becaming one of the first new Bonanno members when the books opened. He helped dispose of the three captains' bodies, but other than that he is a solid comparison to Pistone during that time.

[Clackclack]

Pogo already made all of the points I could have made, but to add to it, Joe Massino also instituted a rule that an associate had to be on record with the Bonanno member who proposed him for at least eight years before he could be made and this rule was specifically in response to Donnie Brasco being proposed and nearly made. Massino felt that an FBI agent would not stick around for eight years waiting to be made. He recorded himself discussing this with Vincent Basciano because Basciano broke the rule and inducted newer associates when Massino was in prison.

Another thing to consider about Pistone that would have made him a more viable candidate: many associates, even those being groomed for membership, cause a lot more trouble, get into more beefs, etc. Pistone had the Mirra issue later on, but overall as an FBI agent undercover he was well-behaved, kicked up money, and did what he was asked. These guys are continually getting headaches from their associates, so Pistone's conduct would have made Pistone a popular recruit along with the amount of time he had spent with these guys, his history with Mirra, Greca, etc.

If I remember right, in the original book Pistone said he was pulled off the street due to the three captains murders and increasing tension / violence in the Bonanno family. Because of Pistone's relationship to Napolitano, he was a major target for retaliation. As we know from mob wars, it is often associates of top members who get targeted as they are easier to get to.

Napolitano also wasn't killed for the Brasco situation, but because he was challenging the administration and threatened to go to war. This is actually supported by Pistone's first book, as Lefty Ruggiero says Napolitano and Massino (who had been on the same faction up until the three captain murders) were "at war". Lefty also said Napolitano was trying to become the new consigliere even though we know Cannone firmly held the position and would keep it for a few more years. Napolitano seems to have been on edge, as Pistone casually complained about Lefty to Napolitano around this time and Napolitano snapped back that he was fed up with Lefty and would "chop his legs off" if Pistone pressed the issue.

Massino also testified that Napolitano was supposed to be on the scene during the three captain murders, but fled shortly beforehand because he believed the "zip" faction was setting up Massino and Napolitano to be killed. Napolitano left through the door that Frank Lino escaped through and apparently left it open or unlocked which is why Lino fled so easily.

So it appears Napolitano was digging his own grave before Pistone even left the streets.

Also for comparison's sake, Big Lou Tartaglione first became an associate in the late 1970s and hung around Massino for a few years after, becaming one of the first new Bonanno members when the books opened. He helped dispose of the three captains' bodies, but other than that he is a solid comparison to Pistone during that time.

Great observation B.

[The Greek]

Bumping this back up to see if anyone has anything on who Guido and Frank were.

[Boatdrinks]

I had wanted to start a thread called 'How to spot an FBI Agent'. After seeing this tread, I realized I did not need to.
Aside from everything said up to now, I would like to add the following;
One red flag, must be if a guy just turns up from out of town. Another red flag, must be if he is a jewel thief from Florida, be it operating on his own as a cat-burglar, or as the leader of gang of crazy Cubans.
The FBI seem to like to sail close to the wind with picking names for their undercover agents. Falcone was picked to honour Judge Falcone. So said Jack Garcia in his book.
It should be said, to determine something, always check the source. Anything I am saying, is what I recall from the Brasco and Falcone books, and the Boss of Bosses book.
With regard to the Brasco name, I have a theory that I am not going to share.
I did once see on the internet btw, a story of a murdered Joseph Pistone. I think it was NJ or Penn.
It is a fact, that agents went to see Paul Castellano, as well as Sonny Black. Sonny thought Brasco was drugged at first. I think there was real fear at first, that the Mafia would not really believe that Brasco was really FBI Agent Pistone. I believe that threat ended, when the FBI spoke to Big Paul, told him Pistone was an FBI Agent, and asked for assurances. Paul replied that if they knew anything about him, that they knew he would not be involved in putting out a contract on him.

[Boatdrinks]

Further advice on spotting FBI Agents:
An agent who is put in deep cover as an Italian, may well be one, or trained to be one. However, his side-kicks are more likely to be any old agents that the agency may think will pass for Italian. So not being Italian, they are unlikely to speak Italian, nor even be very comfortable with very long Italian names. They do have to try to remember them! So nice simple names like Conte and Rossi may be chosen.
Other things not mentioned in the thread so far, the 'mob guy' who is really an FBI Agent, can never be contacted on phone, mind these days with mobiles, that may be harder to spot. However, a landline does go to a specific home.
Undercovers can never be found. They are always away and busy. Sometimes they are reluctant to cross state lines.
Undercovers do not have many vices. Pistone had none.
No drinking, no smoking, no gambling, no girlfriend, no sex, no friends. These should all be red flags.
Lefty does seem to voice suspicions, but it seems that he had tied his wagon to the Brasco horse (or is it the other way round), for so many years, that he is too invested too see straight.
Btw, Sonny was threatening to discipline Lefty, because Donnie complained he was leeching. Donnie complained once, and left it there, whilst Sonny said if it comes up again, he would deal with it. The leeching became so bad, Donnie raised it again. I think Sonny talked about chopping off legs at this point, at which Donnie pulled back again.
So that is another red flag, as agents do not want to stop their operation, nor remove, or get removed, someone who is causing problems.

[Boatdrinks]

Who hit Sonny and why?
They were going to hit Lefty, and he got scooped up.
Sure Sonny and Joe Massino were feuding, but it cannot be a coincidence that Sonny went a month after the operation ended. It looks like his fingers may have been chopped off. Maybe that was easier than a hand. He went because of the security breach.
Sonny wasn't unlucky, he was greedy and stupid. Donnie was on record with Lefty, and that is the way Sonny should have left it. Sonny was a Captain, and as such, should never have dealt with an associate or connected guy.
On record - soldier - captain. There is a reason for the structure. This is one Family that did not have a lot of buffers!
Btw, six years! What six years? Late 1976 to summer 1981, that's less than five full years!
A comment about another thread. In the book, Pistone is told by Sonny's girlfriend, that Sonny gave his car keys to the barman.
In the film, it is Al Pacino's character that went to the meeting. Surely just a more cinematic and poignant ending. We know the real reason for the meeting just as his girlfriend does not. (Married in film?) Pacino takes off his watch and ring and puts them in the drawer and shuts it. Then has second thoughts, and leaves the drawer a little open. In the film, Lefty knows how his meeting is going to go. It is clear that in the book, and in real life, so too did Sonny.
When I first got a hold of the Donnie Brasco book, I was blown away. For me the best scene, the most intense and tense scene, was the beef with Frankie and Patsy. Stuck in that room, having to give a name, then waiting for the phonecall!
I knew the book, 'Donnie Brasco: My Life in the Mafia' would make a great film, but when the film came out I didn't like it. Everything was changed. However, over the years I have grown to like it, and on it's own merits, it is a great film.
If I could change the film though, it would be just in one way. Play it as it is, but cut out that first FBI report. In that way, for those who did not know the story, you could end with the big reveal of Joe Pistone testifying in court under his own name, and viewers would have been blown away just as Lefty and the rest of the Motion Lounge crew were.
It is a great classic true story!

[Boatdrinks]

The Books:
Sonny told Donnie that he was obligated to put some guys names up to be made. However, when they next opened the books, he would be put up.

The Contract:
Donnie had the contract. He pretended he was looking around Miami for the kid.

[Mustangsally]

Bumping this back up to see if anyone has anything on who Guido and Frank were.

Franzese recently had pistone on his channel and said it was frank Melli. Not sure about the spelling but that's what he said, whatever it's worth.