New York's Commission voted for admitting new members in 1976

[Laurentian]

Fateful 1976 mob NYC mob Commission vote to admit new members marked a Mafia turning point in retrospect

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc ... story.html

[Wiseguy]

Fateful 1976 mob NYC mob Commission vote to admit new members marked a Mafia turning point in retrospect

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc ... story.html

For one thing, this suggests Gambino wasn't quite the all powerful "Boss of Bosses" he's been made out to be.

Also, defectors aside, not opening the books would have been much more damaging. At least as far as keeping away the effects of attrition, which has led to the demise of families more than anything else.

Perhaps Gambino's idea was indeed for the mob, as a large criminal organization, to die out and some of the more well connected to become more or less legitimate.

[dack2001]

Greg Scarpa is the source? Had to be a made Colombo member.

[Villain]

Perhaps Gambino's idea was indeed for the mob, as a large criminal organization, to die out and some of the more well connected to become more or less legitimate.

Similar as DiFronzo maybe?

[Pogo The Clown]

When you think about it the decision to close the books and keep them closed for so long really damaged the 5 families. If they had consistency inducted new members since the say the early 1960s guys like Gotti, Amuso, Caso, Gravano, D'Arco, the Persics, Vitale and most of the others guys who caused so much damage in the 1980s and 1990s never would have risen to those high level positions when they did. The whole recent history of the 5 families would be completely different.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

When you think about it the decision to close the books and keep them closed for so long really damaged the 5 families. If they had consistency inducted new members since the say the early 1960s guys like Gotti, Amuso, Caso, Gravano, D'Arco, the Persics, Vitale and most of the others guys who caused so much damage in the 1980s and 1990s never would have risen to those high level positions when they did. The whole recent history of the 5 families would be completely different.


Pogo

It was a national trend that most couldn't recover from, it was pretty much the east coast that was able to fill 40 slots in a short amount of time. Also, 1970's was pretty much when the 1920's died, you had alot of members who were active in that era that went on to lead long lives before dying in that time. You can compare membership estimates from the 1960's with the 1980's and see the drop off, it's not 100% accurate to the exact number but it factored into their decline significantly.

In the FBI Agent's Boss of Bosses book, they quoted themselves discussing how the Castellano wing had people of different generations whereas in Dellacroce's there was a 30 year gap between him and Gotti et al.

The narrative in the 1980's was about how all of these "young guys" were coming up that didn't listen. Pistone, Lonardo even Buscetta alluded to this, it was Cafaro who offered a different take. He was asked about Scarfo-Bruno racketeer-gangster comparison and he responded: "We're all gangsters. If there's a young guy out there doing something he shouldn't it's up to his skipper to pull him in, teach him right from wrong." Cafaro seemed more "in tune" than other people, he didn't lay anything off on anything or conjure up excuses. He even flat out stated if he had to do it all over again he would except he'd rather just run a nightclub and not be so close to the boss. He also predicted the state of the commission in the coming years- "autopilot, Chin's a boss and Gotti's a boss and they're do their own thing but the respect will still be there." Despite the murder plots he's more of less right- the families didn't go to war and seem to just coexist without a formal body meeting regularly.

Could it have just been the 1980's? Cocaine, Gordon Gecko etc? In terms of "mafiosi in good standing with the rules" I'd offer up Philadelphia or the Gambinos post Gotti.

[furiofromnaples]

When you think about it the decision to close the books and keep them closed for so long really damaged the 5 families. If they had consistency inducted new members since the say the early 1960s guys like Gotti, Amuso, Caso, Gravano, D'Arco, the Persics, Vitale and most of the others guys who caused so much damage in the 1980s and 1990s never would have risen to those high level positions when they did. The whole recent history of the 5 families would be completely different.


Pogo

It was a national trend that most couldn't recover from, it was pretty much the east coast that was able to fill 40 slots in a short amount of time. Also, 1970's was pretty much when the 1920's died, you had alot of members who were active in that era that went on to lead long lives before dying in that time. You can compare membership estimates from the 1960's with the 1980's and see the drop off, it's not 100% accurate to the exact number but it factored into their decline significantly.

In the FBI Agent's Boss of Bosses book, they quoted themselves discussing how the Castellano wing had people of different generations whereas in Dellacroce's there was a 30 year gap between him and Gotti et al.

The narrative in the 1980's was about how all of these "young guys" were coming up that didn't listen. Pistone, Lonardo even Buscetta alluded to this, it was Cafaro who offered a different take. He was asked about Scarfo-Bruno racketeer-gangster comparison and he responded: "We're all gangsters. If there's a young guy out there doing something he shouldn't it's up to his skipper to pull him in, teach him right from wrong." Cafaro seemed more "in tune" than other people, he didn't lay anything off on anything or conjure up excuses. He even flat out stated if he had to do it all over again he would except he'd rather just run a nightclub and not be so close to the boss. He also predicted the state of the commission in the coming years- "autopilot, Chin's a boss and Gotti's a boss and they're do their own thing but the respect will still be there." Despite the murder plots he's more of less right- the families didn't go to war and seem to just coexist without a formal body meeting regularly.

Could it have just been the 1980's? Cocaine, Gordon Gecko etc? In terms of "mafiosi in good standing with the rules" I'd offer up Philadelphia or the Gambinos post Gotti.

I think that would be the same even there wasntvthe young guys as bosses. The second or third generation mobsters was more americanized,forget or never learned the italian and dont have the force to spend many years of their life in prison plus in the 1970s-1980s the mobsters doesnt had the power in the prison that had in the past years and with the Rico was more easy to go in federal prisons.
They wanted the money,the women and for sure had the balls to pull a triage but not had the "Cosa Nostra till I die" mentality.

[Angelo Santino]

When you think about it the decision to close the books and keep them closed for so long really damaged the 5 families. If they had consistency inducted new members since the say the early 1960s guys like Gotti, Amuso, Caso, Gravano, D'Arco, the Persics, Vitale and most of the others guys who caused so much damage in the 1980s and 1990s never would have risen to those high level positions when they did. The whole recent history of the 5 families would be completely different.


Pogo

It was a national trend that most couldn't recover from, it was pretty much the east coast that was able to fill 40 slots in a short amount of time. Also, 1970's was pretty much when the 1920's died, you had alot of members who were active in that era that went on to lead long lives before dying in that time. You can compare membership estimates from the 1960's with the 1980's and see the drop off, it's not 100% accurate to the exact number but it factored into their decline significantly.

In the FBI Agent's Boss of Bosses book, they quoted themselves discussing how the Castellano wing had people of different generations whereas in Dellacroce's there was a 30 year gap between him and Gotti et al.

The narrative in the 1980's was about how all of these "young guys" were coming up that didn't listen. Pistone, Lonardo even Buscetta alluded to this, it was Cafaro who offered a different take. He was asked about Scarfo-Bruno racketeer-gangster comparison and he responded: "We're all gangsters. If there's a young guy out there doing something he shouldn't it's up to his skipper to pull him in, teach him right from wrong." Cafaro seemed more "in tune" than other people, he didn't lay anything off on anything or conjure up excuses. He even flat out stated if he had to do it all over again he would except he'd rather just run a nightclub and not be so close to the boss. He also predicted the state of the commission in the coming years- "autopilot, Chin's a boss and Gotti's a boss and they're do their own thing but the respect will still be there." Despite the murder plots he's more of less right- the families didn't go to war and seem to just coexist without a formal body meeting regularly.

Could it have just been the 1980's? Cocaine, Gordon Gecko etc? In terms of "mafiosi in good standing with the rules" I'd offer up Philadelphia or the Gambinos post Gotti.

I think that would be the same even there wasntvthe young guys as bosses. The second or third generation mobsters was more americanized,forget or never learned the italian and dont have the force to spend many years of their life in prison plus in the 1970s-1980s the mobsters doesnt had the power in the prison that had in the past years and with the Rico was more easy to go in federal prisons.
They wanted the money,the women and for sure had the balls to pull a triage but not had the "Cosa Nostra till I die" mentality.

I don't agree with that. The entire Americanization concept is overstated. The "older guys" faced the legal system in its infancy where sentences weren't very long (Scarfo did a year for stabbing someone in public) whereas in the 1980's is when the FBI received additional funding from Reagan combined with long sentences for RICO convictions... I would argue that if we took any successful boss in history- Gambino, Accardo, Bonanno and magically placed them in charge of their Families in 1985, things would have probably went down the same way as it did in reality. The average wiseguy hasn't gotten dumber, law enforcement has just gotten much more sophisticated.

The only Americanization issue I could see would be perhaps the decline of the Italian neighborhood, which at one time was a strong immigrant colony. The Bronx Tale where Palmintieri shoots someone and no one speaks up, that was quite common in the 50's. But there's really no immigrant Ital neighborhoods like this anymore nor is the culture as intimidated by them as they once were.

As far as prison sentences, I reiterate back then the guidelines weren't very long, 15 years was a very rare thing. Now it's quite common. It's easier to keep your mouth shut when facing 5 years as opposed to 50. As far as the penal experience as a man's man bonafide, there's examples of members who served time and when faced with the possibility of going back in decided to flip. Natale is just one example there's many others.

[aleksandrored]

Perhaps Gambino's idea was indeed for the mob, as a large criminal organization, to die out and some of the more well connected to become more or less legitimate.

Similar as DiFronzo maybe?

Why did he have that intention with the Chicago Mafia? has anything to do with chicago's gangs today?

[Wiseguy]

I don't agree with that. The entire Americanization concept is overstated. The "older guys" faced the legal system in its infancy where sentences weren't very long (Scarfo did a year for stabbing someone in public) whereas in the 1980's is when the FBI received additional funding from Reagan combined with long sentences for RICO convictions... I would argue that if we took any successful boss in history- Gambino, Accardo, Bonanno and magically placed them in charge of their Families in 1985, things would have probably went down the same way as it did in reality. The average wiseguy hasn't gotten dumber, law enforcement has just gotten much more sophisticated.

The only Americanization issue I could see would be perhaps the decline of the Italian neighborhood, which at one time was a strong immigrant colony. The Bronx Tale where Palmintieri shoots someone and no one speaks up, that was quite common in the 50's. But there's really no immigrant Ital neighborhoods like this anymore nor is the culture as intimidated by them as they once were.

As far as prison sentences, I reiterate back then the guidelines weren't very long, 15 years was a very rare thing. Now it's quite common. It's easier to keep your mouth shut when facing 5 years as opposed to 50. As far as the penal experience as a man's man bonafide, there's examples of members who served time and when faced with the possibility of going back in decided to flip. Natale is just one example there's many others.

Yeah, while the quality of the older generations may have been higher, it also has to be remembered they didn't face anywhere near the level of law enforcement pressure later generations did.

I think some forget or are unaware of just how damaging the 1980s were. If I remember right, the bosses of 17 families were indicted during the 1980s. Half the families in the U.S. were essentially finished by the end of the decade.

[Frank]

Perhaps Gambino's idea was indeed for the mob, as a large criminal organization, to die out and some of the more well connected to become more or less legitimate.

Similar as DiFronzo maybe?

Why did he have that intention with the Chicago Mafia? has anything to do with chicago's gangs today?

It didn't have anything to do with other gangs

[Frank]

Perhaps Gambino's idea was indeed for the mob, as a large criminal organization, to die out and some of the more well connected to become more or less legitimate.

Similar as DiFronzo maybe?

Why did he have that intention with the Chicago Mafia? has anything to do with chicago's gangs today?

Your question is very hard to answer or give an opinion, because nobody really knows the time frame of when and if DiFronzo had the power to put that vision forth on the whole Outfit or the possibility that he was a CI. Now concerning himself, my opinion is he had enough money to basically go legit. He also encouraged his crew members to have legit incomes. I believe this intention was because of all the Outfit members and Associates that were indicted and imprisoned from the early 80,s to the mid 90s, including DiFronzo himself.

[Angelo Santino]

I don't agree with that. The entire Americanization concept is overstated. The "older guys" faced the legal system in its infancy where sentences weren't very long (Scarfo did a year for stabbing someone in public) whereas in the 1980's is when the FBI received additional funding from Reagan combined with long sentences for RICO convictions... I would argue that if we took any successful boss in history- Gambino, Accardo, Bonanno and magically placed them in charge of their Families in 1985, things would have probably went down the same way as it did in reality. The average wiseguy hasn't gotten dumber, law enforcement has just gotten much more sophisticated.

The only Americanization issue I could see would be perhaps the decline of the Italian neighborhood, which at one time was a strong immigrant colony. The Bronx Tale where Palmintieri shoots someone and no one speaks up, that was quite common in the 50's. But there's really no immigrant Ital neighborhoods like this anymore nor is the culture as intimidated by them as they once were.

As far as prison sentences, I reiterate back then the guidelines weren't very long, 15 years was a very rare thing. Now it's quite common. It's easier to keep your mouth shut when facing 5 years as opposed to 50. As far as the penal experience as a man's man bonafide, there's examples of members who served time and when faced with the possibility of going back in decided to flip. Natale is just one example there's many others.

Yeah, while the quality of the older generations may have been higher, it also has to be remembered they didn't face anywhere near the level of law enforcement pressure later generations did.

I think some forget or are unaware of just how damaging the 1980s were. If I remember right, the bosses of 17 families were indicted during the 1980s. Half the families in the U.S. were essentially finished by the end of the decade.

But I'm not sure if the older generation was more wiser though. We read about stick up guys today and call them wannabes, but everyone starts somewhere. Castellano was first arrested as a stick up guy or something or other. Due to what law enforcement was like back then, Castellano was able to enjoy a 30 year career which is rare for today's emerging members. Not because they're less intelligent but law enforcement has come a long way.

Between 1931 and 1960, it wasn't just bosses enjoy long tenures but captains and soldiers too. The turnover was less frequent. And with law enforcement opposing them by investigating individual crimes rather than as criminal organizations allowed for them to meet and socialize in their private quarters. This was when "the mafia doesn't exist" was still a viable argument... Then Appalachin, then Valachi, the top hoodlum program etc. The 1960's was a headache for most mob members. Law enforcement began following them around, we take that for granted today, but go back to the wiretaps of the 60's and how members were bothered. Bosses and captains stopped meeting with their underlings. The organization had to go from a open-but-quiet organization to having to go underground, it was a gradual and largely unsuccessful attempt. But if the 60's were bad, the 70's were worse as now they had to replace people during federal scrutiny and the 80's is when the FBI got good at what they do. It wasn't so much that law enforcement was ignorant of the mob, they were aware of it since the 1900's, but they had no legal resources to combat it, not until RICO.

[aleksandrored]

Perhaps Gambino's idea was indeed for the mob, as a large criminal organization, to die out and some of the more well connected to become more or less legitimate.

Similar as DiFronzo maybe?

Why did he have that intention with the Chicago Mafia? has anything to do with chicago's gangs today?

Your question is very hard to answer or give an opinion, because nobody really knows the time frame of when and if DiFronzo had the power to put that vision forth on the whole Outfit or the possibility that he was a CI. Now concerning himself, my opinion is he had enough money to basically go legit. He also encouraged his crew members to have legit incomes. I believe this intention was because of all the Outfit members and Associates that were indicted and imprisoned from the early 80,s to the mid 90s, including DiFronzo himself.

I understood, thanks man, I was left with that doubt of why they did not make more members? why did they let the organization die?

[Frank]

Perhaps Gambino's idea was indeed for the mob, as a large criminal organization, to die out and some of the more well connected to become more or less legitimate.

Similar as DiFronzo maybe?

Why did he have that intention with the Chicago Mafia? has anything to do with chicago's gangs today?

Your question is very hard to answer or give an opinion, because nobody really knows the time frame of when and if DiFronzo had the power to put that vision forth on the whole Outfit or the possibility that he was a CI. Now concerning himself, my opinion is he had enough money to basically go legit. He also encouraged his crew members to have legit incomes. I believe this intention was because of all the Outfit members and Associates that were indicted and imprisoned from the early 80,s to the mid 90s, including DiFronzo himself.

I understood, thanks man, I was left with that doubt of why they did not make more members? why did they let the organization die?

They are still considered a viable Family. My guess is there might be more made members than we think. Im not saying a huge amount. I would have to guess they felt the pressure of LE and also had to either havesuspected rats or were afraid to make a rat into the family. The pickings are slim. The older members either had enough money and or didnt want to due time. I still have to believe they knew someone was rating.