JeremyTheJew wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 10:28 am
The Garcia story I wish read like Donnie Brasco.
The book almost seems like a bad double agent movie doing all these cases..
I'm wondering why there's not as much about Jack Falcone as there is Brasco.
And also, I'm interested in the Genovese agent that we heard about a little bit ago??
In my opinion it's because Brasco was the first and the mafia was the mafia. When Garcia comes along, Gotti was in jail. On the outside it looked more like a watered down version of the mafia.
Deff agree.
The fact Garcia isn't even Italian.... really should say a lot
JeremyTheJew wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 10:28 am
The Garcia story I wish read like Donnie Brasco.
The book almost seems like a bad double agent movie doing all these cases..
I'm wondering why there's not as much about Jack Falcone as there is Brasco.
And also, I'm interested in the Genovese agent that we heard about a little bit ago??
In my opinion it's because Brasco was the first and the mafia was the mafia. When Garcia comes along, Gotti was in jail. On the outside it looked more like a watered down version of the mafia.
Deff agree.
The fact Garcia isn't even Italian.... really should say a lot
I think Garcia took the assignment just to eat. He mentions blowing up in weight and he was already a big guy. I’d like to see his before and waaay before pictures.
All kidding aside, I found it interesting he said the difference when going undercover with the mafia versus other criminals was that he was always sub-servant to the mafia. In his other stings he could pretend he was the main guy, be it a cartel guy, a mob boss, etc. when trying to snare other crooks. But with the mafia, he had to be at their beck and call and not the other way around because the mafia would demand he was sub servant then at all times and always consider themselves to be the top dogs
Uncle Pete wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 2:44 pm
All kidding aside, I found it interesting he said the difference when going undercover with the mafia versus other criminals was that he was always sub-servant to the mafia. In his other stings he could pretend he was the main guy, be it a cartel guy, a mob boss, etc. when trying to snare other crooks. But with the mafia, he had to be at their beck and call and not the other way around because the mafia would demand he was sub servant then at all times and always consider themselves to be the top dogs
That is a great point. Part of that is the strength of the mafia network. Other criminal groups have connections, but the mafia relies on a much more strict system of "references". Of course it's not perfect, especially now, and guys like Pistone and Garcia can slip under the radar, but overall the system has worked.
Someone with a supply of drugs, a nice car, and money can convince someone they're a major drug dealer, but in order to convince someone that you're even a lower-level mafia associate you need other mafia figures to act as references.
Ed Valin suggested the theory in his great article about informant Willie Dara that it may have been Dara who initially vouched for Pistone. If that's true, you can't blame the Bonanno family for taking him in. Dara had been a member for close to 30 years at that point and his informant status wasn't known. Dara was a Florida-based member of Mike Sabella's crew and Pistone would end up with the Sabella crew and also operate in Florida.
Garcia saying he was Italian and fooled everyone is his own type, the mafia is so Americanized that a lot of people could have passed off as Italian. H played it up big in his interviews, saying he had to learn the foods and slang--bullshit. Most Mafia members under 60 grew up more on McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken than home cooked Italian meals.
Uncle Pete wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 2:44 pm
All kidding aside, I found it interesting he said the difference when going undercover with the mafia versus other criminals was that he was always sub-servant to the mafia. In his other stings he could pretend he was the main guy, be it a cartel guy, a mob boss, etc. when trying to snare other crooks. But with the mafia, he had to be at their beck and call and not the other way around because the mafia would demand he was sub servant then at all times and always consider themselves to be the top dogs
That is a great point. Part of that is the strength of the mafia network. Other criminal groups have connections, but the mafia relies on a much more strict system of "references". Of course it's not perfect, especially now, and guys like Pistone and Garcia can slip under the radar, but overall the system has worked.
Someone with a supply of drugs, a nice car, and money can convince someone they're a major drug dealer, but in order to convince someone that you're even a lower-level mafia associate you need other mafia figures to act as references.
Ed Valin suggested the theory in his great article about informant Willie Dara that it may have been Dara who initially vouched for Pistone. If that's true, you can't blame the Bonanno family for taking him in. Dara had been a member for close to 30 years at that point and his informant status wasn't known. Dara was a Florida-based member of Mike Sabella's crew and Pistone would end up with the Sabella crew and also operate in Florida.
The introduction was one thing, but if he was introduced like that they still had to check him out. They never did. In his book Pistone talked of saying he was going to California to see a girlfriend I think. He lived in the suburbs even while undercover. No one asked him who else he knew, what schools he went to, who his old partners were, or anything else. It's up to the crews and especially the captain to have guys look into that. The just took him in. Sonny Black really fucked up.
Uncle Pete wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 2:44 pm
All kidding aside, I found it interesting he said the difference when going undercover with the mafia versus other criminals was that he was always sub-servant to the mafia. In his other stings he could pretend he was the main guy, be it a cartel guy, a mob boss, etc. when trying to snare other crooks. But with the mafia, he had to be at their beck and call and not the other way around because the mafia would demand he was sub servant then at all times and always consider themselves to be the top dogs
That is a great point. Part of that is the strength of the mafia network. Other criminal groups have connections, but the mafia relies on a much more strict system of "references". Of course it's not perfect, especially now, and guys like Pistone and Garcia can slip under the radar, but overall the system has worked.
Someone with a supply of drugs, a nice car, and money can convince someone they're a major drug dealer, but in order to convince someone that you're even a lower-level mafia associate you need other mafia figures to act as references.
Ed Valin suggested the theory in his great article about informant Willie Dara that it may have been Dara who initially vouched for Pistone. If that's true, you can't blame the Bonanno family for taking him in. Dara had been a member for close to 30 years at that point and his informant status wasn't known. Dara was a Florida-based member of Mike Sabella's crew and Pistone would end up with the Sabella crew and also operate in Florida.
The introduction was one thing, but if he was introduced like that they still had to check him out. They never did. In his book Pistone talked of saying he was going to California to see a girlfriend I think. He lived in the suburbs even while undercover. No one asked him who else he knew, what schools he went to, who his old partners were, or anything else. It's up to the crews and especially the captain to have guys look into that. The just took him in. Sonny Black really fucked up.
Well he did have to live seperate from his family the last 6 years in which he claims he only saw them a handful of times.
And also he even lived w Sonny Black in the end.
That's what I see as being different between the two operations. DB had to live and breath his cover.
Jeremy, I did not know or I forgot about him and Sonny Black living together. In all that time, Sonny Black should have found out about his background. A few good questions would have made him suspicious. I think he got greedy, and was happy to have guy he liked talking to. Lefty Ruggiero too, I think a few guys in the crew were suspicious a bit, but Sonny Black was either unaproachable on it, or just knocked it down.
bert wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 9:25 pm
Jeremy, I did not know or I forgot about him and Sonny Black living together. In all that time, Sonny Black should have found out about his background. A few good questions would have made him suspicious. I think he got greedy, and was happy to have guy he liked talking to. Lefty Ruggiero too, I think a few guys in the crew were suspicious a bit, but Sonny Black was either unaproachable on it, or just knocked it down.
They never lived together, Pistone just stayed at Sonny's apartment the last couple of times he visited NYC. Remember that he was based in Florida the entire time he knew Sonny Black. Just going by what was written in his first book.
If you think about all the red flags that Lefty saw and just ignored, he's either a complete moron or was just blinded by whatever cash Pistone was giving him, most likely a combination of the 2. First Donnie, who supposedly grew up in an orphanage that later burned down, always has these "friends" around the country who he hooks Lefty up with, one of them was recognized as a federal agent, he brought Lefty out on the boat used in the Abscam case, etc. He must have felt like quite the asshole while he was in prison.
The mob usually operates on a need to know basis. Asking a lot of questions about a guys background and the names of his past associates is a sure way to get yourself pegged as a rat.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 9:52 pm
The mob usually operates on a need to know basis. Asking a lot of questions about a guys background and the names of his past associates is a sure way to get yourself pegged as a rat.
Pogo
Not when a guy is new and unknown. If they had one venture together, sure, not too many questions. As close as he got they had to ask, they screwed up. I think they threw so much money at them, and as I said Sonny took a genuine liking to him. They can't bring a guy to other cities and introduce him to people without making sure who he is. They have to worry he is a rat or an agent, not the other way around. He must have played it right, asking questions to a point buy knowing when to back off. He woud never have pulled that off with most other crews.
But he wasn't really new and unknown by the time he met Lefty and Sonny Black. He had been undercover for a few years by then and had started out with those lower level Colombo guys. And if he was vouched for by made member William Dara that, and his previous track record with the Colonbos, would have been enough to get him in with the Bonanno crowd.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 10:11 pm
But he wasn't really new and unknown by the time he met Lefty and Sonny Black. He had been undercover for a few years by then and had started out with those lower level Colombo guys. And if he was vouched for by made member William Dara that, and his previous track record with the Colonbos, would have been enough to get him in with the Bonanno crowd.
Pogo
+1.
He went from Darra (amazing find b ) to Jilly to mirra to lefty to Sonny. He went through four made guys before landing with SB. Four not enough?
Keep in mind a Fed had never gone UC like Pistone had as well. There was no precedent with this, unlike Garcia.
Seems perfectly reasonable for SB to have him in his crew. He got unlucky. Could’ve happened to anybody.
Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 10:11 pm
But he wasn't really new and unknown by the time he met Lefty and Sonny Black. He had been undercover for a few years by then and had started out with those lower level Colombo guys. And if he was vouched for by made member William Dara that, and his previous track record with the Colonbos, would have been enough to get him in with the Bonanno crowd.
Pogo
+1.
He went from Darra (amazing find b ) to Jilly to mirra to lefty to Sonny. He went through four made guys before landing with SB. Four not enough?
Keep in mind a Fed had never gone UC like Pistone had as well. There was no precedent with this, unlike Garcia.
Seems perfectly reasonable for SB to have him in his crew. He got unlucky. Could’ve happened to anybody.
It is not really confirmed that he came through Dara, and he was not as close to them by any stretch as he got with Sonny Black Lefty. 99% or other crews would have looked into his stories and background. I think guys in Blacks crew were suspicious too.
) to Jilly to mirra to lefty to Sonny. He went through four made guys before landing with SB. Four not enough?