Boss Earnings

[Wiseguy]

1. While I am definitely on the more conservative side when it comes to OC income estimates, it's important to not go to extremes. It's why I've said the claim that most mob guys are "brokesters" is no more true than the claim most are millionaires.

2. When it comes to mob financial estimates, we're typically going to get only two things:

First, the more broad and general estimates we see of how much a boss (or family) was making a year, how much he's worth total, etc.

Second, some more solid - but limited - figures (like what Pogo posted about what some captains were kicking up to Massino, or what Charlie posted about what Dileonardo said of the construction income) but doesn't necessarily give a complete view of things.

In the case of Massino, we sort of have both. First, his end-of-run accumulated worth of $10 million. As well as his own estimate that he made about $25 million total (spending most of it) over his career of - what? - 40 years? But also a 4 captain sample of what was being kicked up to him a month from them.

I personally don't find it that hard to believe a boss today, could bring in $2-3 million a year, especially if he has his own legit/illegal rackets in addition to the tribute being kicked up to him. The problem is, who today is going to have the kind of relatively uninterrupted run that Massino did?

In another thread, discussing illegal gambling in Ohio. Brooklyn21 mentioned gambling in Pennsylvania.

I mentioned that prior to the pandemic the legal gambling industry was booming, and to keep it short I mentioned that every month I would go there new hotel/casinos were propping up left and right.

My question that pertains to all this is: does anyone think any of these crews and their bosses be bringing in enough money to invest in and run casinos like the Outfit did back in the day in Las Vegas?

I doubt it, a lot of casinos are corporate owned and probably out of the price-range of the modern mob. Plus, acquiring the proper licenses to operate a casino would be nearly impossible for anyone with a criminal record and/or organized crime connections.

Not entirely true, Pennsylvania’s gambling industry is practically a brand new industry. Prior to the pandemic, I was going there once or twice a mont with my wife to visit various members of our families. Every time we go through, we see new hotels / casinos being propped up everywhere. Both newly developed, and under development. Some of these are corporate owned such as the Hard Rock Cafe chains, or likely owned by some native tribes, but there are a lot of them that are completely independently owned.

I personally don’t see any reason why the mob couldn’t get involved into this budding industry. Couldn’t they theoretically have a well trusted associate, apply for the gaming license, and run the casino for them? Exactly how the Outfit had Frank Rosenthal run various casinos for them in Vegas back in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s? Not to add, seems like according to this thread, even small time crews are bringing in hundreds of thousands of dollars, no reason why they could not pool that money, launder it, and invest it into the Pennslyvania gambling industry

Practically speaking, I'd be shocked if any mob entity got a serious foothold in a casino today.

First, the regulatory controls are very strong and do a good job of screening mob-connected people. You still see people with loose mob ties not being able to get a contract for things like a building expansion or food vending.

Second, it just doesn't seem the mob (certainly not the Philly family) has the resources, or even the ambition, to make a move like that.

Actually, how much were the Concrete Club gangsters pulling in? In average, in you guys opinions?

Millions over their run. Any concrete contract $2-5 million, one of the 7 main companies in the club had to pay 2%, which was divied up among the bosses. Anything over $5 million, the contract went automatically to Salerno's S&A Concrete. Contracts under $2 million, companies outside the club could bid on them put had to pay a $50,000 kickback to the Colombo family if they got the job.

The garbage guys in thier prime were multi- millions, right?

Many of them, yes. The government estimated mob control was adding an extra $500 million a year to garbage hauling costs in New York.

This is an interesting topic, what did you guys think of the Campos construction rackets? To me, it seemed like they ruined some high level connections for a couple of silly homes. It's not like they still had a total lock on the unions, so fucking up those type of connections doesnt seem smart.

In absence of the unions, what's really bringing it in? The big money?

Well, the unions aren't totally gone, although the influence is significantly reduced and there isn't the same kind of money coming in. The kind of clout that that enabled them to be a rationalizing force in the industry, and control wide-spread bid rigging is gone, but there's still money in no- show jobs, ocassional sweetheart deals, etc.

What we saw in the Campos case, as well as the Crea case previously, is more business racketeering in the construction industry (which may or may not involve the unions) where they embezzled through inflating costs, etc.

Generally speaking, the biggest overall money maker is what it's always been - sports betting.

[Pogo The Clown]

From DiLeonardo Q&A with Soliai


What percentage of his earnings did he have to 'kick up' and give money to his superiors, was it 10%, 15%, Monthly, Weekly, and what was the most you ever kicked up at one time?

-When I got the unions and constructions, the deal was anything union or concrete we took a third and turned in two thirds, if we created a job, we kept 50%, except scara mix, Jr. took the full amount. When I had my company I gave him 11k a month in checks aside from the street stuff. The stock money, I gave two of my guys 25% each, the borgata got 25%, and I kept the other 25%. It is nonsense that the rumor was I was stealing from the family. I was the only guy turning in stock money.

In another interview he says that when he was overseeing construction for the family during the 1990s they were only making 1/3 of what they were making in the early 80s. He says the Commission case and Gravano's defection really hurt the construction rackets.


Pogo

[JCB1977]

1. While I am definitely on the more conservative side when it comes to OC income estimates, it's important to not go to extremes. It's why I've said the claim that most mob guys are "brokesters" is no more true than the claim most are millionaires.

2. When it comes to mob financial estimates, we're typically going to get only two things:

First, the more broad and general estimates we see of how much a boss (or family) was making a year, how much he's worth total, etc.

Second, some more solid - but limited - figures (like what Pogo posted about what some captains were kicking up to Massino, or what Charlie posted about what Dileonardo said of the construction income) but doesn't necessarily give a complete view of things.

In the case of Massino, we sort of have both. First, his end-of-run accumulated worth of $10 million. As well as his own estimate that he made about $25 million total (spending most of it) over his career of - what? - 40 years? But also a 4 captain sample of what was being kicked up to him a month from them.

I personally don't find it that hard to believe a boss today, could bring in $2-3 million a year, especially if he has his own legit/illegal rackets in addition to the tribute being kicked up to him. The problem is, who today is going to have the kind of relatively uninterrupted run that Massino did?

In another thread, discussing illegal gambling in Ohio. Brooklyn21 mentioned gambling in Pennsylvania.

I mentioned that prior to the pandemic the legal gambling industry was booming, and to keep it short I mentioned that every month I would go there new hotel/casinos were propping up left and right.

My question that pertains to all this is: does anyone think any of these crews and their bosses be bringing in enough money to invest in and run casinos like the Outfit did back in the day in Las Vegas?

I doubt it, a lot of casinos are corporate owned and probably out of the price-range of the modern mob. Plus, acquiring the proper licenses to operate a casino would be nearly impossible for anyone with a criminal record and/or organized crime connections.

Not entirely true, Pennsylvania’s gambling industry is practically a brand new industry. Prior to the pandemic, I was going there once or twice a mont with my wife to visit various members of our families. Every time we go through, we see new hotels / casinos being propped up everywhere. Both newly developed, and under development. Some of these are corporate owned such as the Hard Rock Cafe chains, or likely owned by some native tribes, but there are a lot of them that are completely independently owned.

I personally don’t see any reason why the mob couldn’t get involved into this budding industry. Couldn’t they theoretically have a well trusted associate, apply for the gaming license, and run the casino for them? Exactly how the Outfit had Frank Rosenthal run various casinos for them in Vegas back in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s? Not to add, seems like according to this thread, even small time crews are bringing in hundreds of thousands of dollars, no reason why they could not pool that money, launder it, and invest it into the Pennslyvania gambling industry

Practically speaking, I'd be shocked if any mob entity got a serious foothold in a casino today.

First, the regulatory controls are very strong and do a good job of screening mob-connected people. You still see people with loose mob ties not being able to get a contract for things like a building expansion or food vending.

Second, it just doesn't seem the mob (certainly not the Philly family) has the resources, or even the ambition, to make a move like that.

Actually, how much were the Concrete Club gangsters pulling in? In average, in you guys opinions?

Millions over their run. Any concrete contract $2-5 million, one of the 7 main companies in the club had to pay 2%, which was divied up among the bosses. Anything over $5 million, the contract went automatically to Salerno's S&A Concrete. Contracts under $2 million, companies outside the club could bid on them put had to pay a $50,000 kickback to the Colombo family if they got the job.

The garbage guys in thier prime were multi- millions, right?

Many of them, yes. The government estimated mob control was adding an extra $500 million a year to garbage hauling costs in New York.

This is an interesting topic, what did you guys think of the Campos construction rackets? To me, it seemed like they ruined some high level connections for a couple of silly homes. It's not like they still had a total lock on the unions, so fucking up those type of connections doesnt seem smart.

In absence of the unions, what's really bringing it in? The big money?

Well, the unions aren't totally gone, although the influence is significantly reduced and there isn't the same kind of money coming in. The kind of clout that that enabled them to be a rationalizing force in the industry, and control wide-spread bid rigging is gone, but there's still money in no- show jobs, ocassional sweetheart deals, etc.

What we saw in the Campos case, as well as the Crea case previously, is more business racketeering in the construction industry (which may or may not involve the unions) where they embezzled through inflating costs, etc.

Generally speaking, the biggest overall money maker is what it's always been - sports betting.

I agree with most of that Wiseguy. Very few bosses I would assume earn in the $1.5 to $3 million range in 2020. Most likely the Gambinos and Genoveses since they are the two largest families left. I'll leave Canada out of this because Drug Trafficking will always be enormous cash cows.

Boss of Philly "estimated" earnings?

Boss of New Jersey "estimated" earnings?

Buffalo is debatable but Todaro Jr is a millionaire through legitimate business, I won't even attempt this one.

Boss of New England (albeit decimated) can't imagine it's anywhere close to other active families.

Bonanno? Colombo? Lucchese? Outfit? Detroit (if anybody believes they are still active/viable)?

[Wiseguy]

I agree with most of that Wiseguy. Very few bosses I would assume earn in the $1.5 to $3 million range in 2020. Most likely the Gambinos and Genoveses since they are the two largest families left. I'll leave Canada out of this because Drug Trafficking will always be enormous cash cows.

Boss of Philly "estimated" earnings?

Boss of New Jersey "estimated" earnings?

Buffalo is debatable but Todaro Jr is a millionaire through legitimate business, I won't even attempt this one.

Boss of New England (albeit decimated) can't imagine it's anywhere close to other active families.

Bonanno? Colombo? Lucchese? Outfit? Detroit (if anybody believes they are still active/viable)?

I'm hesitant to even get into the numbers guessing game, especially if there's nothing to go on.

But we can look at a guy like Ligambi. Besides the house he has in South Philly, I've read he also has some investments in real estate and a towing company. Up until the indictment in 2011, he also had a 50k a year no-show job with a garbage company. Plus whatever was coming to him by way of tribute. Most may consider him, what? Middle class? Maybe upper-middle?

[Pogo The Clown]

I'm hesitant to even get into the numbers guessing game, especially if there's nothing to go on.

But we can look at a guy like Ligambi. Besides the house he has in South Philly, I've read he also has some investments in real estate and a towing company. Up until the indictment in 2011, he also had a 50k a year no-show job with a garbage company. Plus whatever was coming to him by way of tribute. Most may consider him, what? Middle class? Maybe upper-middle?

Ralph Natale testified that he was making 3,000-3,500 a week as Boss. So 144,000-168,000 a year. Adjusted for inflation 231,000-270,000 in 2020. Though we must keep in mind that Natale had his own drug trafficking operation that brought in a lot of that and the family was also collecting a weekly street tax from 40-50 bookmakers that he got a piece of. Today the street tax is largely non-existent in Philly.


Looking at the Stanfa, Merlino and Ligambi indictments we see that Philly is not a big money family. GA has said on several occassionss that there is not a lot going on in terms of rackets today. I can't imagine their Boss in 2020 making more than real low 6 figures a year.


Pogo

[JCB1977]

I agree with most of that Wiseguy. Very few bosses I would assume earn in the $1.5 to $3 million range in 2020. Most likely the Gambinos and Genoveses since they are the two largest families left. I'll leave Canada out of this because Drug Trafficking will always be enormous cash cows.

Boss of Philly "estimated" earnings?

Boss of New Jersey "estimated" earnings?

Buffalo is debatable but Todaro Jr is a millionaire through legitimate business, I won't even attempt this one.

Boss of New England (albeit decimated) can't imagine it's anywhere close to other active families.

Bonanno? Colombo? Lucchese? Outfit? Detroit (if anybody believes they are still active/viable)?

I'm hesitant to even get into the numbers guessing game, especially if there's nothing to go on.

But we can look at a guy like Ligambi. Besides the house he has in South Philly, I've read he also has some investments in real estate and a towing company. Up until the indictment in 2011, he also had a 50k a year no-show job with a garbage company. Plus whatever was coming to him by way of tribute. Most may consider him, what? Middle class? Maybe upper-middle?

Agree 100%. Not holding you to any numbers as we all know without a true starting point that it is impossible, but what does a family like Philly bring in per year before it is cut up?

[TallGuy19]

Joseph Servidio, a Philadelphia soldier, was caught on a wiretap a couple of years ago saying that he was bringing in about $250,000 per year. I'm not sure how much he was kicking up, but if a soldier is generating a quarter million per year, I'd imagine the boss is making at least that much.

[JCB1977]

Joseph Servidio, a Philadelphia soldier, was caught on a wiretap a couple of years ago saying that he was bringing in about $250,000 per year. I'm not sure how much he was kicking up, but if a soldier is generating a quarter million per year, I'd imagine the boss is making at least that much.

Gross or net numbers? If it's gross, then payoffs need to come out of that to politicians and police. For example, Tony Grosso in Pittsburgh ran a $30 million dollar a year numbers business for 40 years, his take home from that was about $3 million per year or 10% of the gross number which is true to a majority of businesses.

[TallGuy19]

Joseph Servidio, a Philadelphia soldier, was caught on a wiretap a couple of years ago saying that he was bringing in about $250,000 per year. I'm not sure how much he was kicking up, but if a soldier is generating a quarter million per year, I'd imagine the boss is making at least that much.

Gross or net numbers? If it's gross, then payoffs need to come out of that to politicians and police. For example, Tony Grosso in Pittsburgh ran a $30 million dollar a year numbers business for 40 years, his take home from that was about $3 million per year or 10% of the gross number which is true to a majority of businesses.

I'm not sure if it was gross or net, I'm guessing his only real expense would be the portion he kicks up to his captain. I doubt mob families in 2020 are paying off politicians or police, and I especially doubt that a soldier in Philadelphia would have that kind of clout.

[Wiseguy]

Agree 100%. Not holding you to any numbers as we all know without a true starting point that it is impossible, but what does a family like Philly bring in per year before it is cut up?

Look at the Borgata sports betting bust in 2008, which was one of the larger ones involving the family over the last 20 years. The operation handled $60 million in bets over a 20 month period. Say, 5% profit over that time is $3 million. But that is split up between the two-dozen people in the case. Which, if you did evenly (an unlikely scenario) comes to $125,000 each over the 20 months. And that's not taking into account a chunk kicked up the ladder.

As an example Arilotta just talked about how the Springfield Crew did not send tribute to NY.

I finally got time to start watching the video and now it makes a little more sense. It seems Arilotta was talking about how the traditional arrangement was for the Springfield crew to keep what was their's and just bring some money down to the NY leadership at Christmas time.

As you said, definitely reminiscent of the the more hands-off, $10,000 a year approach Corallo took with the Lucchese crew in Jersey. But obviously when Nigro got more involved from New York, more money was expected to be heading that way.

[Lupara]

So are we agreed then? A few million a year to a boss of a large family will be permitted - but controlled?

[Wiseguy]

So are we agreed then? A few million a year to a boss of a large family will be permitted - but controlled?

I think it's possible. But as we know, the money in that life can fluctuate a lot depending on the boss, what legit interests they have, the overall state of the family at the time, etc.

At this point, a guy like Bellomo seems to be doing the smart thing. Had to do some significant time but has invested his money and has legitimate income streams now and property worth millions. He's the boss but at least apparently seems to be staying in the background as much as one can these days. I imagine the feds would love nothing more than to get him on something.

By the way, in those videos, gotta love Alite's obligatory political rants and Gene's obsession over the word "caporegime." I am looking forward to Arilotta's book. Should be interesting.

[MightyDR]

https://nypost.com/2003/01/22/crime-pay ... 0g-a-year/
https://nypost.com/2002/10/29/mob-rat-c ... er-family/

Joe Defede said he collected $6m over four years as acting boss of the Luccheses. He took a bit over a million for himself during that period. So that’s just $1.5m a year being kicked up in the mid 90s.

If Defede’s numbers are accurate, that’s a huge drop in Lucchese earnings in just a few years. I added up all the tribute Al D’Arco mentions Vic and Gas receiving and it was over $4m a year and that didn’t even include things like gas tax and the garment district.

From what I’ve read Defede never said a soldier only earns $50,000 a year BTW. That was just a misinterpretation by a journalist who assumed the family was a business that pays members a salary.

[newera_212]

keep in mind that the capos Massino specifically quoted as kicking up to him were the ones he was closest with. he put all those guys in position and also had them on various makeshift panels and/or admin positions at some point. im just assuming he rattled off those names ONLY, because it was easy to remember and he had more personal dealings and relationships with those guys. just a thought (and in a 15 page thread theres a chance thats already been addressed)

[SonnyBlackstein]

keep in mind that the capos Massino specifically quoted as kicking up to him were the ones he was closest with. he put all those guys in position and also had them on various makeshift panels and/or admin positions at some point. im just assuming he rattled off those names ONLY, because it was easy to remember and he had more personal dealings and relationships with those guys. just a thought (and in a 15 page thread theres a chance thats already been addressed)

Good thought , could very likely be the case.