The so-called "senior advisor" position used to be very important for the Outfit back in the days, and as a matter of fact theres only one file which completely explains the situation...the informant clearly says that it was a spot reserved only for influential members from the higher levels of the organization (top boss, boss, underboss, some major capo or major non-Italian crew boss) who had to take a step back out of various reasons (jail, health issues, all kinds of huge problems with the government or with the organization itself etc.) but they were still needed and respected by the rest of the membership.
I personally believe that this position, including the top boss spot, were formed during the late 1940s or when the Outfits former top admin was released from prison, or when there were too many top guys on the streets at the same time. Previously they again didnt have any official spot like "consigliere" but instead they had a guy like Guzik who in turn held some "treasurer" or "adviser" type of position
Understanding Chicago
Moderator: Capos
Re: Understanding Chicago
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Understanding Chicago
I've made a few posts already but quarantine is boring so here are my thoughts on the subject as a whole:
I don't really have strong opinions on how the Outfit formed because my knowledge of that era is general and not on the level of others here.
Most of what I can comment on is from the "Giancana era" and on so that is where I will spend the majority of my time.
The Outfit is an LCN group at its core. It can only be run at the top by Italians but non-Italians can also hold places and positions of authority or importance within the organization. Most of this appeared to be grandfathered in from the Outfit's formative years where they cooperated extensively with non-Italians of varying ethnicities. Rather than "upset the apple cart," so to speak, once the Outfit was consolidated and recognized as a "family" on the Commission they kept these relationships with non-Italians because their influence in legal, political, and labor fields was enormous. Guys like Guzik, Humphreys, Alex, etc. were respected by the Outfit's senior Italian members. While non-Italians associates in New York City could still hold positions of importance, per capita it was nowhere near the levels of Chicago. I believe this to be because New York had more time to consolidate and scratch out individual turfs and isolate themselves by ethnicity, gaining identities as "families" which eventually evolved into the five we know today. Chicago, on the other hand, was fairly chaotic, particularly during prohibition. Read John Binder's book "Al Capone's Beer Wars: A Complete History of Organized Crime During Prohibition" to see just how chaotic it was. Italians, Irish, Greeks, Poles, Jews, all worked together and against each other - sometimes in ethnically organized gangs but oftentimes working with whomever offered the greatest chance at power and money, regardless of ethnicity.
By the time the 30s rolled around, the Outfit (as we know it today) had basically eliminated or absorbed all of the competition and solidified their hold on organized crime in the city. Skipping ahead to the 1950s and 1960s, many of the relationships forged in the formative years of the Outfit were still in place with non-Italians like Murray Humphreys, Gus Alex, and Ralph Pierce holding positions of authority. It is important to note that although guys like Alex and Pierce ran certain areas of territory, the proportion of Italian members reporting to them were much smaller than other territories ran by Italians. I'm not sure if this is coincidental or not, but it is worth noting. Be that as it may, Humphreys and Alex were still influential enough that they held some amount of influence over the Italian element of the Outfit and their word went a long way with people like Ricca or Accardo backing it. That was essentially the key to their power: the bosses' endorsement of them. Hypothetically, if Ricca or Accardo had changed their minds and decided that they did not to involve themselves with non-Italians (at least at the higher levels) then I'm not sure there would be much Alex or Humphreys could do about it. But because it was good for business and everyone benefited from it, they kept the relationship going because that was how they had profited for years. Why fix what isn't broken?
As far as the leadership is concerned, I don't think there has ever been a set "system" or particular organization that the Outfit adhered to. It has been well documented that Ricca and Accardo wanted less heat so someone like Giancana ran the day to day operations of the Outfit and the various territorial bosses ran their own respective areas and crews, but if high level decisions needed to be made then Ricca and/or Accardo were consulted. I am not sure if "underboss" or even a "number 2" was really ever consistently used by the Outfit. We have Frank Ferraro, who was often deferred to in Giancana's absence as a "de facto" underboss and Battaglia after him but I'm not sure that these guys (especially Battaglia) ever really left their crews to become a number 2. It's more of a situation where they are or were "first among equals" out of the territory bosses, and could handle things if necessary in the absence of the boss.
Once Battaglia and then Cerone went to prison, the leadership situation became a mess, with Accardo having to take a more active role in the day-to-day affairs until someone could carry more of that responsibility. Once he appointed Aiuppa, there was skepticism among his contemporaries (according to FBI intelligence), although that greatly eroded as Aiuppa began to exert more and more power and Accardo moved more and more to the background. Due to his legal and political contacts, Gus Alex was kept on to assist Aiuppa in the day-to-day running although like Accardo, Alex was growing less interested in staying around Chicago full-time and desired to spend more time in Florida. By coincidence, it was around that time that Cerone was released from prison. He needed to abide by the terms of his parole for another year after his release so Cerone voluntarily relegated himself to the background, which allowed him time to have some medical procedures done, as well. However, after his restrictions expired he expressed a desire to again take on a higher role. This suited Alex well enough and Cerone became more active in day-to-day affairs of the Outfit. Essentially, you could call him a number 2 but in my opinion, it was more of a situation where he was a well-respected and powerful individual, which made him stand out from the rest of the capos and elevated his responsibility, less by being a #2, and more by being first among his equals. Earlier, long-standing members such as Ross Prio, Frank LaPorte, and Fiore Buccieri held positions similar to this and were recognized as "senior" or "elder" members and accorded a higher level of respect, if not an "official" standing within the organization. As it was, Aiuppa's health was always a question over the years so Cerone eventually became almost a 1b as opposed to a 2, with some intelligence predicting that Aiuppa would eventually retire and Cerone would become the day-to-day boss.
However, they were both imprisoned in the casino skimming case and it appeared that Sam Carlisi was annointed the new boss by Aiuppa. I'm not really sure if I would go so far as to say that DiFronzo was a definitive number 2, more that he became that "first among equals" that Cerone had before he went to prison. After Carlisi was imprisoned in 1992, it seemed like the territories operated more independently of each other and the most powerful boss was who the other bosses deferred to in certain situations. Think of it like a board of county commissioners where that individual is the chair. There are also examples of FBI files at this time period treating the respective crew bosses as a sort of commission which ran Chicago, with that most powerful boss as the head of that commission, similar to the board of commissioners example above. See also examples of FBI files, newspaper reports, and trial testimonies referring to the crew bosses as underbosses, almost as if they all collectively held a similar level of authority and power under the boss, with certain exceptions as in the case of Cerone, and possibly DiFronzo after him, who held more power than the others. This may have been because their authority was more tied to a particular piece of territory as opposed to east coast families, whose members oftentimes operated throughout the city. This may also explain the lack of an explicit underboss or #2 as the crews operated semi-independently of each other unless asked to cooperate in a murder or something to that effect, with a day-to-day boss being there to settle any potential disputes or approve certain murders or decisions. Over the years, it has been much easier to point to this or that guy and say "he is the day-to-day boss" than it has been to point to any one guy and say he is the #2, at least when viewed through a traditional LCN lens.
Just some random thoughts.
I don't really have strong opinions on how the Outfit formed because my knowledge of that era is general and not on the level of others here.
Most of what I can comment on is from the "Giancana era" and on so that is where I will spend the majority of my time.
The Outfit is an LCN group at its core. It can only be run at the top by Italians but non-Italians can also hold places and positions of authority or importance within the organization. Most of this appeared to be grandfathered in from the Outfit's formative years where they cooperated extensively with non-Italians of varying ethnicities. Rather than "upset the apple cart," so to speak, once the Outfit was consolidated and recognized as a "family" on the Commission they kept these relationships with non-Italians because their influence in legal, political, and labor fields was enormous. Guys like Guzik, Humphreys, Alex, etc. were respected by the Outfit's senior Italian members. While non-Italians associates in New York City could still hold positions of importance, per capita it was nowhere near the levels of Chicago. I believe this to be because New York had more time to consolidate and scratch out individual turfs and isolate themselves by ethnicity, gaining identities as "families" which eventually evolved into the five we know today. Chicago, on the other hand, was fairly chaotic, particularly during prohibition. Read John Binder's book "Al Capone's Beer Wars: A Complete History of Organized Crime During Prohibition" to see just how chaotic it was. Italians, Irish, Greeks, Poles, Jews, all worked together and against each other - sometimes in ethnically organized gangs but oftentimes working with whomever offered the greatest chance at power and money, regardless of ethnicity.
By the time the 30s rolled around, the Outfit (as we know it today) had basically eliminated or absorbed all of the competition and solidified their hold on organized crime in the city. Skipping ahead to the 1950s and 1960s, many of the relationships forged in the formative years of the Outfit were still in place with non-Italians like Murray Humphreys, Gus Alex, and Ralph Pierce holding positions of authority. It is important to note that although guys like Alex and Pierce ran certain areas of territory, the proportion of Italian members reporting to them were much smaller than other territories ran by Italians. I'm not sure if this is coincidental or not, but it is worth noting. Be that as it may, Humphreys and Alex were still influential enough that they held some amount of influence over the Italian element of the Outfit and their word went a long way with people like Ricca or Accardo backing it. That was essentially the key to their power: the bosses' endorsement of them. Hypothetically, if Ricca or Accardo had changed their minds and decided that they did not to involve themselves with non-Italians (at least at the higher levels) then I'm not sure there would be much Alex or Humphreys could do about it. But because it was good for business and everyone benefited from it, they kept the relationship going because that was how they had profited for years. Why fix what isn't broken?
As far as the leadership is concerned, I don't think there has ever been a set "system" or particular organization that the Outfit adhered to. It has been well documented that Ricca and Accardo wanted less heat so someone like Giancana ran the day to day operations of the Outfit and the various territorial bosses ran their own respective areas and crews, but if high level decisions needed to be made then Ricca and/or Accardo were consulted. I am not sure if "underboss" or even a "number 2" was really ever consistently used by the Outfit. We have Frank Ferraro, who was often deferred to in Giancana's absence as a "de facto" underboss and Battaglia after him but I'm not sure that these guys (especially Battaglia) ever really left their crews to become a number 2. It's more of a situation where they are or were "first among equals" out of the territory bosses, and could handle things if necessary in the absence of the boss.
Once Battaglia and then Cerone went to prison, the leadership situation became a mess, with Accardo having to take a more active role in the day-to-day affairs until someone could carry more of that responsibility. Once he appointed Aiuppa, there was skepticism among his contemporaries (according to FBI intelligence), although that greatly eroded as Aiuppa began to exert more and more power and Accardo moved more and more to the background. Due to his legal and political contacts, Gus Alex was kept on to assist Aiuppa in the day-to-day running although like Accardo, Alex was growing less interested in staying around Chicago full-time and desired to spend more time in Florida. By coincidence, it was around that time that Cerone was released from prison. He needed to abide by the terms of his parole for another year after his release so Cerone voluntarily relegated himself to the background, which allowed him time to have some medical procedures done, as well. However, after his restrictions expired he expressed a desire to again take on a higher role. This suited Alex well enough and Cerone became more active in day-to-day affairs of the Outfit. Essentially, you could call him a number 2 but in my opinion, it was more of a situation where he was a well-respected and powerful individual, which made him stand out from the rest of the capos and elevated his responsibility, less by being a #2, and more by being first among his equals. Earlier, long-standing members such as Ross Prio, Frank LaPorte, and Fiore Buccieri held positions similar to this and were recognized as "senior" or "elder" members and accorded a higher level of respect, if not an "official" standing within the organization. As it was, Aiuppa's health was always a question over the years so Cerone eventually became almost a 1b as opposed to a 2, with some intelligence predicting that Aiuppa would eventually retire and Cerone would become the day-to-day boss.
However, they were both imprisoned in the casino skimming case and it appeared that Sam Carlisi was annointed the new boss by Aiuppa. I'm not really sure if I would go so far as to say that DiFronzo was a definitive number 2, more that he became that "first among equals" that Cerone had before he went to prison. After Carlisi was imprisoned in 1992, it seemed like the territories operated more independently of each other and the most powerful boss was who the other bosses deferred to in certain situations. Think of it like a board of county commissioners where that individual is the chair. There are also examples of FBI files at this time period treating the respective crew bosses as a sort of commission which ran Chicago, with that most powerful boss as the head of that commission, similar to the board of commissioners example above. See also examples of FBI files, newspaper reports, and trial testimonies referring to the crew bosses as underbosses, almost as if they all collectively held a similar level of authority and power under the boss, with certain exceptions as in the case of Cerone, and possibly DiFronzo after him, who held more power than the others. This may have been because their authority was more tied to a particular piece of territory as opposed to east coast families, whose members oftentimes operated throughout the city. This may also explain the lack of an explicit underboss or #2 as the crews operated semi-independently of each other unless asked to cooperate in a murder or something to that effect, with a day-to-day boss being there to settle any potential disputes or approve certain murders or decisions. Over the years, it has been much easier to point to this or that guy and say "he is the day-to-day boss" than it has been to point to any one guy and say he is the #2, at least when viewed through a traditional LCN lens.
Just some random thoughts.
Last edited by Snakes on Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Understanding Chicago
I assume nick ferriola was under toots but what I have read said he mostly reported directly to frank calabrese. But being toots was capo and Nicky was in that crew you would assume that’s the case. I think toots has stepped back to some extent but he seems to be doing the same stuff. Like I said that area on the south side where the Italian American club Is it’s like going back in time. People like that always gamble with the neighborhood bookie.Villain wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:45 pmThanks for your opinion and yeah i agree that its more like west and south these days.Pete wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:36 pmVena dote Spina and Nicky c are. Salvatore Cataudella I couldn’t say. Jimmy i could very well be retired. But I agree with your contention but I think it’s more west and south.Villain wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:27 pmI agree that these days theres probably no more top administration like in the old days, but instead it seems that there are only two remaining factions, one being North/West with guys like Vena, Dote and Spina, and the other faction is represented by Inendino, Cataudella and Caruso. Im not saying that these guys are still active, except for Vena who is obviously still on the feds' menuPete wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:09 pmI think I’ve stated before I am not even sure If the outfit has an actual boss and underboss today but more the capos do their thing as they see fit. I’ve seen nothing that shows it’s as hierarchical as it was. That’s why I have changed my stance on the outfit over the last 5 years. And I think as you and I both agree these websites stating boss underboss and consiglier( when there never has been such a role) are completely off base. I can say with almost certainty that delaurentis is not the boss or the consigliere lol. Now I do think they are very active. But some of the most active guys are not guys even recognized as made or being anything above soldier. From what I’ve seen tony dote still has major juice and a ton of money. I’ve witnessed people kiss his ass and fall all over him. Nick catauadella as well. Dino Marino and nick ferriola as well are players. But players in what? They all mostly do their own thing and anyone who says otherwise is off base. And of course albie vena is a major major player first among equals. But do I think dote and Nicky c and Dino and nick ferriola kick up to him? No I don’t. I think it’s way more loose. And maybe I’m completely wrong and there is a boss underboss and consigliere and 5 capos and 100 soldiers but I’d bet everything I have that’s not the case. Difronzo permanently changed the course of the outfit when he stopped making guys in the 90’s. Marcello tried to go back to the old ways but was locked up in less than 2 years. Anyone who claims to know the outfit hierarchy is lying or pushing a story or both. To me it looks like Cleveland all over again they stopped making guys and eventually diedVillain wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:52 pmI agree, only the feds and the media used those terms for the Outfit so they can try to explain the organization at the time. I also never saw in my whole research for terms like consiglere or underboss being used by these guys in the old days. They used street terms like "clique" (confirmed by Giancana, Ferraro, Humphreys, Alex, Joe Costello) and similar stuff like the ones i already mentioned.Pete wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:11 pmIn all honesty the only times I’ve seen people mentioned as underboss that weren’t were in the papers. Outfit was pretty clear. I never say anything from an outfit member that used the underboss term loosely. It was cerone then passed to difronzo. Papers can say so and so was underboss but where’s the proof. Villain I defer to you when it comes to wiretaps and certain research. Did you ever see anything that disagrees with the hierarchy we agree on? As you and me spoke about my main Knowledge is 70’s and on and I’d go up against anyone in that. Before I’d defer to you on anything previous. I saw so many people newspapers said was underboss that weren’t. I don’t believe in the outfit it was loosely used I think that was in the media
And I also think that maybe you should post your thoughts on the new area, just so we can get this convo going because im personally locked up at home and dont have anything else to do lol thats why im posting lineages regarding those damn non-Italian crews lol
What are your thoughts regarding Caruso and them fellas? He came from a long line of Mafiosi but there isnt anything out there to indicate that he is still active...except for Nick F...he was under Caruso right?
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
Re: Understanding Chicago
I don't know where it comes from that Chicago didn't have a consigliere. It's clearly Snakes.
Great job synthesizing this discussion into one informative post.
Speaking of consigliere, what do you think about Accardo being labeled consigliere in sources like Fratianno's book? There is the 1986 Chicago Tribune article that describes him as consigliere, too, and they cite federal sources but it's not clear if the FBI itself used the word consigliere or if the Tribune made that jump themselves based on words like "advisor". I am skeptical of journalistic interpretations without knowing their exact sources, but I'm also curious what the various sources are who used that term to describe Accardo, as it made its rounds.
We have quite a few member sources inside and outside of Chicago who state that the top crew bosses in Chicago were recognized as caporegime/decina, captains, or whatever synonymous term someone wants to use. This doesn't mean captains weren't more powerful within a certain territory in Chicago than their equivalents in other families (though we do see this in larger US families, too, though), but the position itself is universally understood by all of the sources.
When certain captains get promoted to the admin in other families, that admin member usually continues to associate with and even supervise his old crew to some degree. He's not the captain anymore, but those are "his people," so to speak. Offhand, Gravano's account is a great example and by no means the only one. In Chicago, when someone becomes a "first among equals", is there evidence that they still formally retain the position of captain (or territory/crew boss, the terminology doesn't matter), or is it more that they continue to have defacto influence over that crew? I think this is an important distinction.
Also, the words "number 1" and "number 2" were used within Chicago, right? Those weren't outsider terms? It would be interesting to catalog all of the different terms used by each source over the years. In some US families, they would go a significant period of time without naming an underboss or electing a consigliere after someone in those positions died or stepped down (for example, the Profaci family didn't elect an official consigliere after Buffa died in 1959 until 1964 after Joe Colombo took over -- the position still existed, it just wasn't filled). Do you think this sort of scenario is relevant to Chicago at all, where positions existed (under whatever name they wanted to use) but they weren't always eager to officially fill the position and instead used a defacto system?
Thanks.
Great job synthesizing this discussion into one informative post.
Speaking of consigliere, what do you think about Accardo being labeled consigliere in sources like Fratianno's book? There is the 1986 Chicago Tribune article that describes him as consigliere, too, and they cite federal sources but it's not clear if the FBI itself used the word consigliere or if the Tribune made that jump themselves based on words like "advisor". I am skeptical of journalistic interpretations without knowing their exact sources, but I'm also curious what the various sources are who used that term to describe Accardo, as it made its rounds.
We have quite a few member sources inside and outside of Chicago who state that the top crew bosses in Chicago were recognized as caporegime/decina, captains, or whatever synonymous term someone wants to use. This doesn't mean captains weren't more powerful within a certain territory in Chicago than their equivalents in other families (though we do see this in larger US families, too, though), but the position itself is universally understood by all of the sources.
When certain captains get promoted to the admin in other families, that admin member usually continues to associate with and even supervise his old crew to some degree. He's not the captain anymore, but those are "his people," so to speak. Offhand, Gravano's account is a great example and by no means the only one. In Chicago, when someone becomes a "first among equals", is there evidence that they still formally retain the position of captain (or territory/crew boss, the terminology doesn't matter), or is it more that they continue to have defacto influence over that crew? I think this is an important distinction.
Also, the words "number 1" and "number 2" were used within Chicago, right? Those weren't outsider terms? It would be interesting to catalog all of the different terms used by each source over the years. In some US families, they would go a significant period of time without naming an underboss or electing a consigliere after someone in those positions died or stepped down (for example, the Profaci family didn't elect an official consigliere after Buffa died in 1959 until 1964 after Joe Colombo took over -- the position still existed, it just wasn't filled). Do you think this sort of scenario is relevant to Chicago at all, where positions existed (under whatever name they wanted to use) but they weren't always eager to officially fill the position and instead used a defacto system?
Thanks.
Re: Understanding Chicago
It is more of a defacto influence over that crew. For example, Cerone essentially still ran Elmwood Park but probably had John DiFronzo supervise the day-to-day operations. If you were to ask who ran Elmwood Park, most everyone would have still said "Cerone." Really, same went for Aiuppa and Melrose Park.B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:33 pm When certain captains get promoted to the admin in other families, that admin member usually continues to associate with and even supervise his old crew to some degree. He's not the captain anymore, but those are "his people," so to speak. Offhand, Gravano's account is a great example and by no means the only one. In Chicago, when someone becomes a "first among equals", is there evidence that they still formally retain the position of captain (or territory/crew boss, the terminology doesn't matter), or is it more that they continue to have defacto influence over that crew? I think this is an important distinction.
Number 1 and number 2 were used by Nick Calabrese in his testimony (if I'm remembering correctly). I think this sort of scenario is very relevant. It was less of a position that needed to be filled than a position or positions that were attained through respect and seniority. That's why I think it is hard to draw a succession line for Chicago outside of the very top positions.B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:33 pm Also, the words "number 1" and "number 2" were used within Chicago, right? Those weren't outsider terms? It would be interesting to catalog all of the different terms used by each source over the years. In some US families, they would go a significant period of time without naming an underboss or electing a consigliere after someone in those positions died or stepped down (for example, the Profaci family didn't elect an official consigliere after Buffa died in 1959 until 1964 after Joe Colombo took over -- the position still existed, it just wasn't filled). Do you think this sort of scenario is relevant to Chicago at all, where positions existed (under whatever name they wanted to use) but they weren't always eager to officially fill the position and instead used a defacto system?
Thanks.
Re: Understanding Chicago
I think he was more or less given the consigliere title by the FBI. He basically performed the same functions and it wasn't like he was gonna call the paper and say "I'm not a consigliere!" I think it was almost "artistic license" on their part for consistency's sake. Maybe the field office guys knew better but wanted to slap a label on there in case any questions came from the central office? I have never seen "consigliere" used by any CTE's or CI's in Outfit FBI files. As far as Fratianno's book is concerned, I think Demaris added in some clarification that may not necessarily have come verbatim from Fratianno's mouth. Like, Ovid asks "so was Accardo the Outfit consigliere?" Fratianno answers "no, not really." Then Demaris asks him if "he performed the functions of one?" Fratianno says "yeah, basically," so Demaris writes the book with Accardo as consigliere. It sounds a little cleaner than saying "semi-retired former boss who occasionally weighed in on high level decisions." Again, this is all just speculation on my part.B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:33 pm Speaking of consigliere, what do you think about Accardo being labeled consigliere in sources like Fratianno's book? There is the 1986 Chicago Tribune article that describes him as consigliere, too, and they cite federal sources but it's not clear if the FBI itself used the word consigliere or if the Tribune made that jump themselves based on words like "advisor". I am skeptical of journalistic interpretations without knowing their exact sources, but I'm also curious what the various sources are who used that term to describe Accardo, as it made its rounds.
Re: Understanding Chicago
It seems like there was a "need to know" basis for a lot of the relationships in Chicago and in most cases there was no need to say it outright. People figured out what the basic arrangement was, but it had to be observed rather than told. Whether or not they had the same official positions we all know, they seem to have functionally acted out similar if not the same roles we'd expect to see in a mafia family (taking into account that no family at any given time does things exactly the way another family does and the duties of each rank vary based on the individual, family, and situation).
Contrast this with NYC, where someone is promoted to underboss and he has to be re-introduced to the membership with his new position by a third party in the same way that a new member is first introduced. Of course, this was often ignored even in NYC, but they were "supposed" to do it that way. We also have five families trying to make sense of five different administrations, so what can be observed more easily without specifics in a place like Chicago would be reinforced by hundreds more members talking and gossiping about the specifics in NYC.
What stands out to me, though, is despite vague terms for official(?) positions like "number 1" and "number 2", both Nick Calabrese's testimony and Frank Calabrese's tapes use the term "capo" to refer to their immediate supervisor LaPietra. So they did use the terminology in some instances, in this case with the leader they had a direct relationship with. If one of the Chicago captains had cooperated, I'd be curious how they'd refer to the admin.
Contrast this with NYC, where someone is promoted to underboss and he has to be re-introduced to the membership with his new position by a third party in the same way that a new member is first introduced. Of course, this was often ignored even in NYC, but they were "supposed" to do it that way. We also have five families trying to make sense of five different administrations, so what can be observed more easily without specifics in a place like Chicago would be reinforced by hundreds more members talking and gossiping about the specifics in NYC.
What stands out to me, though, is despite vague terms for official(?) positions like "number 1" and "number 2", both Nick Calabrese's testimony and Frank Calabrese's tapes use the term "capo" to refer to their immediate supervisor LaPietra. So they did use the terminology in some instances, in this case with the leader they had a direct relationship with. If one of the Chicago captains had cooperated, I'd be curious how they'd refer to the admin.
It brings to mind what Bompensiero was told by a midwest member about Zerilli wanting to step down from boss in Detroit and stay on the admin as a "consigliere of power". It didn't happen, but it seems like it would have played out similarly, as no doubt Zerilli would have had the last word but in more of an advisory capacity.Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:24 pm I think he was more or less given the consigliere title by the FBI. He basically performed the same functions and it wasn't like he was gonna call the paper and say "I'm not a consigliere!" I think it was almost "artistic license" on their part for consistency's sake. Maybe the field office guys knew better but wanted to slap a label on there in case any questions came from the central office? I have never seen "consigliere" used by any CTE's or CI's in Outfit FBI files. As far as Fratianno's book is concerned, I think Demaris added in some clarification that may not necessarily have come verbatim from Fratianno's mouth. Like, Ovid asks "so was Accardo the Outfit consigliere?" Fratianno answers "no, not really." Then Demaris asks him if "he performed the functions of one?" Fratianno says "yeah, basically," so Demaris writes the book with Accardo as consigliere. It sounds a little cleaner than saying "semi-retired former boss who occasionally weighed in on high level decisions." Again, this is all just speculation on my part.
Re: Understanding Chicago
I think "capo" was basically used in the same sense as New York, so yeah, that was an exception. It is interesting to me that you don't see many references to "capo" until the 90s. It may be nothing or it could have a meaning (same as the making ceremony).B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:33 pm It seems like there was a "need to know" basis for a lot of the relationships in Chicago and in most cases there was no need to say it outright. People figured out what the basic arrangement was, but it had to be observed rather than told. Whether or not they had the same official positions we all know, they seem to have functionally acted out similar if not the same roles we'd expect to see in a mafia family (taking into account that no family at any given time does things exactly the way another family does and the duties of each rank vary based on the individual, family, and situation).
Contrast this with NYC, where someone is promoted to underboss and he has to be re-introduced to the membership with his new position by a third party in the same way that a new member is first introduced. Of course, this was often ignored even in NYC, but they were "supposed" to do it that way. We also have five families trying to make sense of five different administrations, so what can be observed more easily without specifics in a place like Chicago would be reinforced by hundreds more members talking and gossiping about the specifics in NYC.
What stands out to me, though, is despite vague terms for official(?) positions like "number 1" and "number 2", both Nick Calabrese's testimony and Frank Calabrese's tapes use the term "capo" to refer to their immediate supervisor LaPietra. So they did use the terminology in some instances, in this case with the leader they had a direct relationship with. If one of the Chicago captains had cooperated, I'd be curious how they'd refer to the admin.
It brings to mind what Bompensiero was told by a midwest member about Zerilli wanting to step down from boss in Detroit and stay on the admin as a "consigliere of power". It didn't happen, but it seems like it would have played out similarly, as no doubt Zerilli would have had the last word but in more of an advisory capacity.Snakes wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:24 pm I think he was more or less given the consigliere title by the FBI. He basically performed the same functions and it wasn't like he was gonna call the paper and say "I'm not a consigliere!" I think it was almost "artistic license" on their part for consistency's sake. Maybe the field office guys knew better but wanted to slap a label on there in case any questions came from the central office? I have never seen "consigliere" used by any CTE's or CI's in Outfit FBI files. As far as Fratianno's book is concerned, I think Demaris added in some clarification that may not necessarily have come verbatim from Fratianno's mouth. Like, Ovid asks "so was Accardo the Outfit consigliere?" Fratianno answers "no, not really." Then Demaris asks him if "he performed the functions of one?" Fratianno says "yeah, basically," so Demaris writes the book with Accardo as consigliere. It sounds a little cleaner than saying "semi-retired former boss who occasionally weighed in on high level decisions." Again, this is all just speculation on my part.
Re: Understanding Chicago
Bompensiero and Piscopo both used caporegime in the 1960s with Chicago figures they personally knew, so it seems the positions themselves were recognized that way back then. Not sure if the Chicago member CIs used that term at any point, though.
You can't ignore pop culture in this either. By later decades many of these terms had been reported in the media, movies, etc. It's always possible this helped sort of "synchronize" the language used by the members.
You can't ignore pop culture in this either. By later decades many of these terms had been reported in the media, movies, etc. It's always possible this helped sort of "synchronize" the language used by the members.
Re: Understanding Chicago
I don’t know if they used it in 60’s definitely by 70’s. Nick calabrese talked about capos many times so that was. A real thing.B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:43 pm Bompensiero and Piscopo both used caporegime in the 1960s with Chicago figures they personally knew, so it seems the positions themselves were recognized that way back then. Not sure if the Chicago member CIs used that term at any point, though.
You can't ignore pop culture in this either. By later decades many of these terms had been reported in the media, movies, etc. It's always possible this helped sort of "synchronize" the language used by the members.
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
Re: Understanding Chicago
1 and 2 was certainly used but I think it was more just to not say boss and underboss and risk that being recorded.B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:33 pm I don't know where it comes from that Chicago didn't have a consigliere. It's clearly Snakes.
Great job synthesizing this discussion into one informative post.
Speaking of consigliere, what do you think about Accardo being labeled consigliere in sources like Fratianno's book? There is the 1986 Chicago Tribune article that describes him as consigliere, too, and they cite federal sources but it's not clear if the FBI itself used the word consigliere or if the Tribune made that jump themselves based on words like "advisor". I am skeptical of journalistic interpretations without knowing their exact sources, but I'm also curious what the various sources are who used that term to describe Accardo, as it made its rounds.
We have quite a few member sources inside and outside of Chicago who state that the top crew bosses in Chicago were recognized as caporegime/decina, captains, or whatever synonymous term someone wants to use. This doesn't mean captains weren't more powerful within a certain territory in Chicago than their equivalents in other families (though we do see this in larger US families, too, though), but the position itself is universally understood by all of the sources.
When certain captains get promoted to the admin in other families, that admin member usually continues to associate with and even supervise his old crew to some degree. He's not the captain anymore, but those are "his people," so to speak. Offhand, Gravano's account is a great example and by no means the only one. In Chicago, when someone becomes a "first among equals", is there evidence that they still formally retain the position of captain (or territory/crew boss, the terminology doesn't matter), or is it more that they continue to have defacto influence over that crew? I think this is an important distinction.
Also, the words "number 1" and "number 2" were used within Chicago, right? Those weren't outsider terms? It would be interesting to catalog all of the different terms used by each source over the years. In some US families, they would go a significant period of time without naming an underboss or electing a consigliere after someone in those positions died or stepped down (for example, the Profaci family didn't elect an official consigliere after Buffa died in 1959 until 1964 after Joe Colombo took over -- the position still existed, it just wasn't filled). Do you think this sort of scenario is relevant to Chicago at all, where positions existed (under whatever name they wanted to use) but they weren't always eager to officially fill the position and instead used a defacto system?
Thanks.
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
Re: Understanding Chicago
Im still looking for the file which perfectly explains Chicagos advisor position in details, but i managed to find something similar...this information is from 1962 and probably comes from some NY informer or a member from a different family at least, since he made some mistakes like for example he stated that the Outfit changed their bosses every 4 years which was untrue, and he was half-right about Rocco Fischetti since he used to be a major capo and i think that the informer possibly mixed up Rocco with his late brother Charles, one time acting boss for the Outfit.
BUT the informant was obviously quite aware regarding the different type of system in Chicago and also a position which was reserved only for former bosses who still received income from the family...
Also heres some interesting stuff to read about...previously i had this convo with one of our board members via pms, and so ive decided to post some of the info here..
Humphreys telling Ferraro on how it used to be in the old days....Al is Capone...
This is just one of the convos which confirms Humphreys' advisory role over Ferraro, the Outfits "underboss" or #2 at the time.
Second convo...Humphreys remembering the old days together with Teets Battaglia...the whole page is only about Humphreys so i cropped the main part...Gussie is Alex, Frankie is Ferraro and Mooney is Giancana...the problem they talk about was taking care of Capones family long after after his death...Humphreys, Battaglia and other fellas voted for the continuance of financing the Capone family, but Giancana, Ferraro and Alex voted against it...while Ralph Capone didnt care at all...
And last one regarding the importance of the "Humphreys group"...
In the end the Humphreys group gave their vote for Battaglia in 1965 (obviously because of the long time relations between Humphreys and Battaglia) and later Humphreys died by the end of that same year. So Cerone remained a major capo until 67 when Battaglia went to prison. After that Alex and the rest of the fellas were against Battaglias successor Alderisio and pushed for Cerone and Buccieri to takeover the organization, and in the end they really did took over.
BUT the informant was obviously quite aware regarding the different type of system in Chicago and also a position which was reserved only for former bosses who still received income from the family...
Also heres some interesting stuff to read about...previously i had this convo with one of our board members via pms, and so ive decided to post some of the info here..
Humphreys telling Ferraro on how it used to be in the old days....Al is Capone...
This is just one of the convos which confirms Humphreys' advisory role over Ferraro, the Outfits "underboss" or #2 at the time.
Second convo...Humphreys remembering the old days together with Teets Battaglia...the whole page is only about Humphreys so i cropped the main part...Gussie is Alex, Frankie is Ferraro and Mooney is Giancana...the problem they talk about was taking care of Capones family long after after his death...Humphreys, Battaglia and other fellas voted for the continuance of financing the Capone family, but Giancana, Ferraro and Alex voted against it...while Ralph Capone didnt care at all...
And last one regarding the importance of the "Humphreys group"...
In the end the Humphreys group gave their vote for Battaglia in 1965 (obviously because of the long time relations between Humphreys and Battaglia) and later Humphreys died by the end of that same year. So Cerone remained a major capo until 67 when Battaglia went to prison. After that Alex and the rest of the fellas were against Battaglias successor Alderisio and pushed for Cerone and Buccieri to takeover the organization, and in the end they really did took over.
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: Understanding Chicago
History of the so-called Murray Humphreys crew..
The crew's first boss was known as Dennis Cooney whose connections to the Capone mob and later the Chicago Outfit went all the way to the days before Prohibition.
Cooney's first "headquartes" was the South Side area where he made close connections with Big Jim Colosimo, mainly because their main and mutual racket was prostitution. From that point on Cooney also received interests around the Loop and Near South Side.
Conney continued the so-called tradition by being closely connected with the leading Italian element from around the South Side, first with Colosimo, later with John Torrio and in the end with Al Capone. So by the late 1920s, when Capone began unifying most of the gangs around Chicago, Conney also created his own crew which was mostly Anglo-Saxon, followed by few Jewish and Italian members. From that point on, besides prostitution, few of Cooneys new ventures were the policy and numbers rackets, followed by union racketeering and extortion.
During the same time, legend goes that one young hoodlum from the South Side known as Murray Humphreys was making problems to the Capone mob by allegedly hijacking some of their trucks. Story goes that he was brought before Capone and Humphreys life was spared, and was told to report to Dennis Cooney.
In addition, in 1932, same as the Guzik crew, Cooney's crew was also placed under the jurisdiction of the new boss od the South Side mob Phil D'Andrea. During this period the Cooney crew controlled the First Ward and allegedly donated a lot of cash to the Italian-American union, previously known as the Unione Siciliani.
Dennis Cooney active (1910's - 1942) crew boss (late 1920's - 1936) semi-retired (1936 - 1942) died (1942)
Crew members (late 1920's - 1936) - Sam Hunt, Julius, Caesar and Leo Benvenuti, Murray Humphreys, Ralph Pierce, Fred Morelli, James Fawcett, Martin Quirk, Danny Stanton, Jack Nevills, Robert McCullough, Sam Manno, Willie Niemoth, Louis Dorman
By 1936, Cooney was semi-retired and became the crew's elder statesman and so there were two cadidates for Cooneys number one man and those were Sam Hunt and Danny Stanton, but since Hunt had more seniority, he was looked upon as the next leader by the rest of the crew. This created some type of anger in Stanton and some of his associates but everyone kept quiet until Conney was still alive.
Cooney died in 1942 and thats when all hell broke loose. The crew instantly divided on two groups, one being under Hunt which included Humphreys, the Benvenuti brothers and Ralph Pierce, and second group was under Stanton who was followed by Quirk, McCullough and Louis Dorman. In 1943, Stanton, Quirk and Dorman were all killed and so the conflict was finished forever. After the death of Stantons, Hunts number one guy Humphreys became his prime enforcer in the union racketeering business.
In addition, the crew's main guy in the numbers and policy rackets Julius Benvenuti died in 1945 out of natural causes and so his lucrative operations were inherited by his two brothers and also the so-called Manno clan. Also after Cooneys death and after the conflict, Fred Morelli from the First Ward joined the Guzik crew.
Sam Hunt - active (mid 1920s - 1954) official crew boss (1943 - 1955) inactive (1955) died (1956)
Crew members (1943 - 1953): Murray and Ernest/Jack Humphreys, Ralph Pierce, Pat, Sam, Tom, Fred and Nick Manno, Caesar and Leo Benvenuti, Pete Tremont (died in 1956), Hyman Godfrey, Albert Capizzi, Sam Pardy, Tom Pierson, Charles and Joe DiCaro, William McGuire
During the early 1950s there was some conflict between the Outfits top bosses Ricca and Accardo, and reports show that some capos and crew bosses began taking sides. For example Ross Prio from the North Side together with D'Andreas successor Bruno Roti Sr followed by Sam Hunt, both representing the South Side faction, joined Accardo in the complete takeover of the Bartenders and waiters union, by leaving out Riccas West Side mob under Giancana and Battaglia.
So both Roti Sr and Hunt were betrayed by some of their underlings and the whole scheme was uncovered which resulted with the 1954 deaths of two of Accardos enforcers and later the beef was sqaushed. From that point on, Roti Sr's faction was overseen by the guys who probably uncovered the scheme to Ricca and Battaglia, meaning Humphreys and his close associates from the Guzik crew, Frank Ferraro and Gus Alex.
So that same year or in 1954, Humphreys succeeded Hunt as the new boss of the crew, while by 1955 Hunt was in New York and died the next year. In addition, by 1956 the so-called Manno clan began having more than few problems with the goverment and so during the following years most of their operations were shut down.
Murray Humphreys active (late 1920s - 1965) crew boss 1954 - 1957) advisor (1957 - 1965) died (1965)
Crew members (1954 - 1957): Ralph and Frank Pierce, Hyman Godfrey, Ernest/Jack Humphreys, Pete Tremont, Pat, Sam, Tom and Fred Manno, Sam Pardy, Charles and Joe DiCaro, Gus Zappas, Albert Capizzi, Ralph Rizza, George Rubin, Tom Pierson, William McGuire, Andrew Hodo, Wallace and Eddie Jefferson
In 1957, the boss of the South Side Roti Sr. died and his position was taken by the two bosses of the old Guzik crew Ferraro and Alex, with the first one being the number two guy under the new boss Giancana, while Humphreys became the senior adviser for both the "underboss" and the overall boss of the South Side mob which was Alex. Besides being their main advisor, Humphreys also had the last word on all union matters.
From that point on, Humphrey's main guy or personal crew boss became Ralph Pierce but the thing was that Pierce didnt answer only to Humphreys but instead he also answered to Alex.
Frank Ferraro died in 1964, followed by Murray Humphreys in 1965, and from that point on the West Side mob completely took over the top administration, while Alex remained as boss of the First Ward and South Side Mob until 1970. Some reports say that by the late 60s the old Joe Fusco crew was finished and some members such as the DeStefano bros Rocco and Frank joined the Pierce/Alex group.
Ralph Pierce active (late 1920s - 1974) crew boss (1957 - 1970) liasion (1971 - 1974) inactive (1975) died (1976)
Crew members (1957 - 1970): Hyman Godfrey, Charles and Joe DiCaro, Gus Zappas, William McGuire, Pat Manno, Pat Manno Jr, Frank Pierce, Ernest/Jack Humphreys, Erwin Harvey, George Rubin, Joe Melograno, Frank Capizzi, John Lorusso, Charles Carroll, Thomas Anderson, Melvin Baker, Charles Dart Jr., Malcom and Walter Coleman, James Irving, Daniel Gaines, Bernard Posner, Rocco and Frank DeStefano, Arthur and Mike Markovitz aka Louis and Mike Markle, Dana Nash, William Triplett, Gus Pope, Sammy Bell, Joe Whalan
By the end of the 1960s, Pierce's gambling empire was completely finished by the hand of the government, and many of his associates ended up in jail or switched to different crews. For example, Willie McGuire became close associate of the Inglesia aka English bros who by now fell under the Buccieri group, which during this period were also spreading their influence around the South Side, including Chinatown. Also, some of the African-American operators decided to form their own and independent crews and stopped kicking up to the Outfit.
In 1971, the boss of what was left of the old South Side mob, Gus Alex was elevated to the senior advisor position which was among the top 3 members above the whole organization. From 1971until 1974 Pierce was looked upon as one of the most senior members and acted only as liasion or messenger between Alex and other high profile members, especially Pat Marcy, Les Kruse, Lenny Patrick and Frank Caruso. In 1975, Pierce developed serious health issues and his death in 1976 marked the end of the old Humphreys crew.
Next..the Les Kruse and Eddie Vogel crews....
The crew's first boss was known as Dennis Cooney whose connections to the Capone mob and later the Chicago Outfit went all the way to the days before Prohibition.
Cooney's first "headquartes" was the South Side area where he made close connections with Big Jim Colosimo, mainly because their main and mutual racket was prostitution. From that point on Cooney also received interests around the Loop and Near South Side.
Conney continued the so-called tradition by being closely connected with the leading Italian element from around the South Side, first with Colosimo, later with John Torrio and in the end with Al Capone. So by the late 1920s, when Capone began unifying most of the gangs around Chicago, Conney also created his own crew which was mostly Anglo-Saxon, followed by few Jewish and Italian members. From that point on, besides prostitution, few of Cooneys new ventures were the policy and numbers rackets, followed by union racketeering and extortion.
During the same time, legend goes that one young hoodlum from the South Side known as Murray Humphreys was making problems to the Capone mob by allegedly hijacking some of their trucks. Story goes that he was brought before Capone and Humphreys life was spared, and was told to report to Dennis Cooney.
In addition, in 1932, same as the Guzik crew, Cooney's crew was also placed under the jurisdiction of the new boss od the South Side mob Phil D'Andrea. During this period the Cooney crew controlled the First Ward and allegedly donated a lot of cash to the Italian-American union, previously known as the Unione Siciliani.
Dennis Cooney active (1910's - 1942) crew boss (late 1920's - 1936) semi-retired (1936 - 1942) died (1942)
Crew members (late 1920's - 1936) - Sam Hunt, Julius, Caesar and Leo Benvenuti, Murray Humphreys, Ralph Pierce, Fred Morelli, James Fawcett, Martin Quirk, Danny Stanton, Jack Nevills, Robert McCullough, Sam Manno, Willie Niemoth, Louis Dorman
By 1936, Cooney was semi-retired and became the crew's elder statesman and so there were two cadidates for Cooneys number one man and those were Sam Hunt and Danny Stanton, but since Hunt had more seniority, he was looked upon as the next leader by the rest of the crew. This created some type of anger in Stanton and some of his associates but everyone kept quiet until Conney was still alive.
Cooney died in 1942 and thats when all hell broke loose. The crew instantly divided on two groups, one being under Hunt which included Humphreys, the Benvenuti brothers and Ralph Pierce, and second group was under Stanton who was followed by Quirk, McCullough and Louis Dorman. In 1943, Stanton, Quirk and Dorman were all killed and so the conflict was finished forever. After the death of Stantons, Hunts number one guy Humphreys became his prime enforcer in the union racketeering business.
In addition, the crew's main guy in the numbers and policy rackets Julius Benvenuti died in 1945 out of natural causes and so his lucrative operations were inherited by his two brothers and also the so-called Manno clan. Also after Cooneys death and after the conflict, Fred Morelli from the First Ward joined the Guzik crew.
Sam Hunt - active (mid 1920s - 1954) official crew boss (1943 - 1955) inactive (1955) died (1956)
Crew members (1943 - 1953): Murray and Ernest/Jack Humphreys, Ralph Pierce, Pat, Sam, Tom, Fred and Nick Manno, Caesar and Leo Benvenuti, Pete Tremont (died in 1956), Hyman Godfrey, Albert Capizzi, Sam Pardy, Tom Pierson, Charles and Joe DiCaro, William McGuire
During the early 1950s there was some conflict between the Outfits top bosses Ricca and Accardo, and reports show that some capos and crew bosses began taking sides. For example Ross Prio from the North Side together with D'Andreas successor Bruno Roti Sr followed by Sam Hunt, both representing the South Side faction, joined Accardo in the complete takeover of the Bartenders and waiters union, by leaving out Riccas West Side mob under Giancana and Battaglia.
So both Roti Sr and Hunt were betrayed by some of their underlings and the whole scheme was uncovered which resulted with the 1954 deaths of two of Accardos enforcers and later the beef was sqaushed. From that point on, Roti Sr's faction was overseen by the guys who probably uncovered the scheme to Ricca and Battaglia, meaning Humphreys and his close associates from the Guzik crew, Frank Ferraro and Gus Alex.
So that same year or in 1954, Humphreys succeeded Hunt as the new boss of the crew, while by 1955 Hunt was in New York and died the next year. In addition, by 1956 the so-called Manno clan began having more than few problems with the goverment and so during the following years most of their operations were shut down.
Murray Humphreys active (late 1920s - 1965) crew boss 1954 - 1957) advisor (1957 - 1965) died (1965)
Crew members (1954 - 1957): Ralph and Frank Pierce, Hyman Godfrey, Ernest/Jack Humphreys, Pete Tremont, Pat, Sam, Tom and Fred Manno, Sam Pardy, Charles and Joe DiCaro, Gus Zappas, Albert Capizzi, Ralph Rizza, George Rubin, Tom Pierson, William McGuire, Andrew Hodo, Wallace and Eddie Jefferson
In 1957, the boss of the South Side Roti Sr. died and his position was taken by the two bosses of the old Guzik crew Ferraro and Alex, with the first one being the number two guy under the new boss Giancana, while Humphreys became the senior adviser for both the "underboss" and the overall boss of the South Side mob which was Alex. Besides being their main advisor, Humphreys also had the last word on all union matters.
From that point on, Humphrey's main guy or personal crew boss became Ralph Pierce but the thing was that Pierce didnt answer only to Humphreys but instead he also answered to Alex.
Frank Ferraro died in 1964, followed by Murray Humphreys in 1965, and from that point on the West Side mob completely took over the top administration, while Alex remained as boss of the First Ward and South Side Mob until 1970. Some reports say that by the late 60s the old Joe Fusco crew was finished and some members such as the DeStefano bros Rocco and Frank joined the Pierce/Alex group.
Ralph Pierce active (late 1920s - 1974) crew boss (1957 - 1970) liasion (1971 - 1974) inactive (1975) died (1976)
Crew members (1957 - 1970): Hyman Godfrey, Charles and Joe DiCaro, Gus Zappas, William McGuire, Pat Manno, Pat Manno Jr, Frank Pierce, Ernest/Jack Humphreys, Erwin Harvey, George Rubin, Joe Melograno, Frank Capizzi, John Lorusso, Charles Carroll, Thomas Anderson, Melvin Baker, Charles Dart Jr., Malcom and Walter Coleman, James Irving, Daniel Gaines, Bernard Posner, Rocco and Frank DeStefano, Arthur and Mike Markovitz aka Louis and Mike Markle, Dana Nash, William Triplett, Gus Pope, Sammy Bell, Joe Whalan
By the end of the 1960s, Pierce's gambling empire was completely finished by the hand of the government, and many of his associates ended up in jail or switched to different crews. For example, Willie McGuire became close associate of the Inglesia aka English bros who by now fell under the Buccieri group, which during this period were also spreading their influence around the South Side, including Chinatown. Also, some of the African-American operators decided to form their own and independent crews and stopped kicking up to the Outfit.
In 1971, the boss of what was left of the old South Side mob, Gus Alex was elevated to the senior advisor position which was among the top 3 members above the whole organization. From 1971until 1974 Pierce was looked upon as one of the most senior members and acted only as liasion or messenger between Alex and other high profile members, especially Pat Marcy, Les Kruse, Lenny Patrick and Frank Caruso. In 1975, Pierce developed serious health issues and his death in 1976 marked the end of the old Humphreys crew.
Next..the Les Kruse and Eddie Vogel crews....
Last edited by Villain on Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:39 pm, edited 20 times in total.
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
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CabriniGreen
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Re: Understanding Chicago
Great stuff here....
Re: Understanding Chicago
The so-called Les Kruse group was in fact a product of the old Fischetti crew which probably existed before the official creation of the Outfit in 1931.
It was never a big crew like the previous ones such as the Guzik and Humphreys groups, but still it was considered quite lucrative and very dangerous and influential crew.
Les Kruse joined the Fischetti crew somewhere around the mid 1930s. You see by that time, ownership of the General News Bureau was mostly in the hands of Moses Annenberg. Story goes that Kruse and his father Arnold used to work for the gambling magnate Annenberg and thats how he was introduced to the Fischetti group. By now these guys controlled parts from Cicero, including the whole Southwest side and some parts of the souther suburbs.
It is quite possible that during this period Joe Fuscos group was also under the jurisdiction of the Fischettis as a sub-crew
Charles Fischetti active (late 1920s - 1947) crew boss or capo (1931 - 1943) acting boss (1944 - 1947) semi-retired (1948 - 1951) died (1951)
Crew members (1931 - 1947): Rocco and Joe Fischetti, James Mondi, Nick Juffra, Eddie Piranio, Edward Konowski, Les Kruse, Gus Liebe, Leo Weiss, James Ragen Jr.
Joe Fusco, Ralph Buglio, Rocco, Vito and Frank DeStefano, Tony Delordo, Max Dolgin
In 1944 Charles Fischetti became the top guy of the Outfit, while his brother Rocco became the new boss of the South Side mob, since the previous one Phil D'Andrea was in jail.
During the next four years there was internal conflict which was allegedly started by old time members from the North Side faction, but ended with the Fischettis and Tony Accardo as the winners. By the late 40s the Fischettis also took over the Lake County area on the North Side and their main representative was Les Kruse.
In 1951, Charles Fischetti died and so Rocco was lowered down to a capo or crew boss. Rocco was still very much respected by the organization but the real action was handled by his two associates such as his brother Joe who looked after the Outfits interests in Florida, and Les Kruse who looked after his interests both in Chicago and Las Vegas, Nevada; including some around Central America.
Rocco Fischetti active (late 1920s - 1963) major capo (1944 - 1947) capo (1948 - early 1960s) died (1964)
Crew members (1948 - early 1960s): Joe Fischetti, Les Kruse, Gus Liebe, Leo Weiss, John Drew, Louis Lederer, Frank Dowling, Alan Rothman
Story goes that by the early 1960s Rocco Fischetti had many gambling debts, and so all of his problems were allegedly solved by his close associate Les Kruse. Some reports say that Kruse paid off all of Fischettis gambling debts and took over his crew.
Les Kruse active (mid 1930s - 1975) crew boss (early 1960s - early 1970s) liasion (1973 - 1975) died (1976)
Crew members (1964 - 1970): Rocco Fischetti (died 1964), Joe Fischetti, Gus Liebe, John Drew, Louis Lederer, Thomas Griffin, Frank Dowling, Charles Smith, George Robb, Alan Rothman, Eddie Ginsburg, Guy Sparta, Paul Payne, Alan Zimmerman, Harold Edwards.
Some reports say that during the late 1960s the one of the Outfits reps in Las Vegas at the time, Frank Rosenthal was under Kruse's jurisdiction, probably until the early 70s when the newly created Grand Av crew from the West Side "took over" Rosenthal.
During the first half of the 1970s, Kruse acted as a liasion for his boss Gus Alex and mainly looked after his interests in Las Vegas. In 1976, Les Kruse died of natural causes.
It is interesting to note is that with Kruse out of the picture, the Buccieri group took over his interests around Cicero and the South Side, and they also absorbed his long time interests around Lake County. In fact, by the end of the 70s another boss who operated in the Lake County area, Joe Amato was pushed out by members of the old Buccieri crew.
It was never a big crew like the previous ones such as the Guzik and Humphreys groups, but still it was considered quite lucrative and very dangerous and influential crew.
Les Kruse joined the Fischetti crew somewhere around the mid 1930s. You see by that time, ownership of the General News Bureau was mostly in the hands of Moses Annenberg. Story goes that Kruse and his father Arnold used to work for the gambling magnate Annenberg and thats how he was introduced to the Fischetti group. By now these guys controlled parts from Cicero, including the whole Southwest side and some parts of the souther suburbs.
It is quite possible that during this period Joe Fuscos group was also under the jurisdiction of the Fischettis as a sub-crew
Charles Fischetti active (late 1920s - 1947) crew boss or capo (1931 - 1943) acting boss (1944 - 1947) semi-retired (1948 - 1951) died (1951)
Crew members (1931 - 1947): Rocco and Joe Fischetti, James Mondi, Nick Juffra, Eddie Piranio, Edward Konowski, Les Kruse, Gus Liebe, Leo Weiss, James Ragen Jr.
Joe Fusco, Ralph Buglio, Rocco, Vito and Frank DeStefano, Tony Delordo, Max Dolgin
In 1944 Charles Fischetti became the top guy of the Outfit, while his brother Rocco became the new boss of the South Side mob, since the previous one Phil D'Andrea was in jail.
During the next four years there was internal conflict which was allegedly started by old time members from the North Side faction, but ended with the Fischettis and Tony Accardo as the winners. By the late 40s the Fischettis also took over the Lake County area on the North Side and their main representative was Les Kruse.
In 1951, Charles Fischetti died and so Rocco was lowered down to a capo or crew boss. Rocco was still very much respected by the organization but the real action was handled by his two associates such as his brother Joe who looked after the Outfits interests in Florida, and Les Kruse who looked after his interests both in Chicago and Las Vegas, Nevada; including some around Central America.
Rocco Fischetti active (late 1920s - 1963) major capo (1944 - 1947) capo (1948 - early 1960s) died (1964)
Crew members (1948 - early 1960s): Joe Fischetti, Les Kruse, Gus Liebe, Leo Weiss, John Drew, Louis Lederer, Frank Dowling, Alan Rothman
Story goes that by the early 1960s Rocco Fischetti had many gambling debts, and so all of his problems were allegedly solved by his close associate Les Kruse. Some reports say that Kruse paid off all of Fischettis gambling debts and took over his crew.
Les Kruse active (mid 1930s - 1975) crew boss (early 1960s - early 1970s) liasion (1973 - 1975) died (1976)
Crew members (1964 - 1970): Rocco Fischetti (died 1964), Joe Fischetti, Gus Liebe, John Drew, Louis Lederer, Thomas Griffin, Frank Dowling, Charles Smith, George Robb, Alan Rothman, Eddie Ginsburg, Guy Sparta, Paul Payne, Alan Zimmerman, Harold Edwards.
Some reports say that during the late 1960s the one of the Outfits reps in Las Vegas at the time, Frank Rosenthal was under Kruse's jurisdiction, probably until the early 70s when the newly created Grand Av crew from the West Side "took over" Rosenthal.
During the first half of the 1970s, Kruse acted as a liasion for his boss Gus Alex and mainly looked after his interests in Las Vegas. In 1976, Les Kruse died of natural causes.
It is interesting to note is that with Kruse out of the picture, the Buccieri group took over his interests around Cicero and the South Side, and they also absorbed his long time interests around Lake County. In fact, by the end of the 70s another boss who operated in the Lake County area, Joe Amato was pushed out by members of the old Buccieri crew.
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10