Understanding Chicago

[Pete]

Ive also seen some references like for example the terms "number two" or "relay man" being used to describe the underboss position and "the Man" to describe the top bosses such as Ricca or later Accardo.

In all honesty the only times I’ve seen people mentioned as underboss that weren’t were in the papers. Outfit was pretty clear. I never say anything from an outfit member that used the underboss term loosely. It was cerone then passed to difronzo. Papers can say so and so was underboss but where’s the proof. Villain I defer to you when it comes to wiretaps and certain research. Did you ever see anything that disagrees with the hierarchy we agree on? As you and me spoke about my main Knowledge is 70’s and on and I’d go up against anyone in that. Before I’d defer to you on anything previous. I saw so many people newspapers said was underboss that weren’t. I don’t believe in the outfit it was loosely used I think that was in the media

I agree, only the feds and the media used those terms for the Outfit so they can try to explain the organization at the time. I also never saw in my whole research for terms like consiglere or underboss being used by these guys in the old days. They used street terms like "clique" (confirmed by Giancana, Ferraro, Humphreys, Alex, Joe Costello) and similar stuff like the ones i already mentioned.

And I also think that maybe you should post your thoughts on the new area, just so we can get this convo going because im personally locked up at home and dont have anything else to do lol thats why im posting lineages regarding those damn non-Italian crews lol

I think I’ve stated before I am not even sure If the outfit has an actual boss and underboss today but more the capos do their thing as they see fit. I’ve seen nothing that shows it’s as hierarchical as it was. That’s why I have changed my stance on the outfit over the last 5 years. And I think as you and I both agree these websites stating boss underboss and consiglier( when there never has been such a role) are completely off base. I can say with almost certainty that delaurentis is not the boss or the consigliere lol. Now I do think they are very active. But some of the most active guys are not guys even recognized as made or being anything above soldier. From what I’ve seen tony dote still has major juice and a ton of money. I’ve witnessed people kiss his ass and fall all over him. Nick catauadella as well. Dino Marino and nick ferriola as well are players. But players in what? They all mostly do their own thing and anyone who says otherwise is off base. And of course albie vena is a major major player first among equals. But do I think dote and Nicky c and Dino and nick ferriola kick up to him? No I don’t. I think it’s way more loose. And maybe I’m completely wrong and there is a boss underboss and consigliere and 5 capos and 100 soldiers but I’d bet everything I have that’s not the case. Difronzo permanently changed the course of the outfit when he stopped making guys in the 90’s. Marcello tried to go back to the old ways but was locked up in less than 2 years. Anyone who claims to know the outfit hierarchy is lying or pushing a story or both. To me it looks like Cleveland all over again they stopped making guys and eventually died

[Pete]

Here's a question:

When was the last documented Commission meeting/situation that Chicago was involved in? I made this thread some time ago regarding the 1977 Colombo conflict that resulted in the demotion of underboss Abbatemarco and other leaders, plus a murder:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4862&p=114420

The source (who was definitely well-informed of the situation) said that the "boss of Chicago" sat in on this dispute as part of the Commission.

Carlisi may have met as late as 1989 with John Gotti in Florida. The details of the meeting are sketchy. The DeCavalcantes may have also been involved although I'd have to double check.

Gravano claimed that the underboss of Chicago reached out to borrow Cutler I believe. Not sure if that constitutes a commission meeting but I figured I'd throw that out there.

Cutler defended DeLaurentis in the early 90s

Funny thing if you read cutlers book he didn’t even spell sollys name right. Good indicator of the defense he got. They were dead to rights anyways to many tapes and bj jahoda

[Pete]

Here's a question:

When was the last documented Commission meeting/situation that Chicago was involved in? I made this thread some time ago regarding the 1977 Colombo conflict that resulted in the demotion of underboss Abbatemarco and other leaders, plus a murder:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4862&p=114420

The source (who was definitely well-informed of the situation) said that the "boss of Chicago" sat in on this dispute as part of the Commission.

Carlisi may have met as late as 1989 with John Gotti in Florida. The details of the meeting are sketchy. The DeCavalcantes may have also been involved although I'd have to double check.

Gravano claimed that the underboss of Chicago reached out to borrow Cutler I believe. Not sure if that constitutes a commission meeting but I figured I'd throw that out there.

As snakes stated he defended solly but solly was not the underboss. At that point rocky was the capo Of the crew and solly was his top guy

[Villain]

Ive also seen some references like for example the terms "number two" or "relay man" being used to describe the underboss position and "the Man" to describe the top bosses such as Ricca or later Accardo.

In all honesty the only times I’ve seen people mentioned as underboss that weren’t were in the papers. Outfit was pretty clear. I never say anything from an outfit member that used the underboss term loosely. It was cerone then passed to difronzo. Papers can say so and so was underboss but where’s the proof. Villain I defer to you when it comes to wiretaps and certain research. Did you ever see anything that disagrees with the hierarchy we agree on? As you and me spoke about my main Knowledge is 70’s and on and I’d go up against anyone in that. Before I’d defer to you on anything previous. I saw so many people newspapers said was underboss that weren’t. I don’t believe in the outfit it was loosely used I think that was in the media

I agree, only the feds and the media used those terms for the Outfit so they can try to explain the organization at the time. I also never saw in my whole research for terms like consiglere or underboss being used by these guys in the old days. They used street terms like "clique" (confirmed by Giancana, Ferraro, Humphreys, Alex, Joe Costello) and similar stuff like the ones i already mentioned.

And I also think that maybe you should post your thoughts on the new area, just so we can get this convo going because im personally locked up at home and dont have anything else to do lol thats why im posting lineages regarding those damn non-Italian crews lol

I think I’ve stated before I am not even sure If the outfit has an actual boss and underboss today but more the capos do their thing as they see fit. I’ve seen nothing that shows it’s as hierarchical as it was. That’s why I have changed my stance on the outfit over the last 5 years. And I think as you and I both agree these websites stating boss underboss and consiglier( when there never has been such a role) are completely off base. I can say with almost certainty that delaurentis is not the boss or the consigliere lol. Now I do think they are very active. But some of the most active guys are not guys even recognized as made or being anything above soldier. From what I’ve seen tony dote still has major juice and a ton of money. I’ve witnessed people kiss his ass and fall all over him. Nick catauadella as well. Dino Marino and nick ferriola as well are players. But players in what? They all mostly do their own thing and anyone who says otherwise is off base. And of course albie vena is a major major player first among equals. But do I think dote and Nicky c and Dino and nick ferriola kick up to him? No I don’t. I think it’s way more loose. And maybe I’m completely wrong and there is a boss underboss and consigliere and 5 capos and 100 soldiers but I’d bet everything I have that’s not the case. Difronzo permanently changed the course of the outfit when he stopped making guys in the 90’s. Marcello tried to go back to the old ways but was locked up in less than 2 years. Anyone who claims to know the outfit hierarchy is lying or pushing a story or both. To me it looks like Cleveland all over again they stopped making guys and eventually died

I agree that these days theres probably no more top administration like in the old days, but instead it seems that there are only two remaining factions, one being North/West with guys like Vena, Dote and Spina, and the other faction is represented by Inendino, Cataudella and Caruso. Im not saying that these guys are still active, except for Vena who is obviously still on the feds' menu

[Pete]

Ive also seen some references like for example the terms "number two" or "relay man" being used to describe the underboss position and "the Man" to describe the top bosses such as Ricca or later Accardo.

In all honesty the only times I’ve seen people mentioned as underboss that weren’t were in the papers. Outfit was pretty clear. I never say anything from an outfit member that used the underboss term loosely. It was cerone then passed to difronzo. Papers can say so and so was underboss but where’s the proof. Villain I defer to you when it comes to wiretaps and certain research. Did you ever see anything that disagrees with the hierarchy we agree on? As you and me spoke about my main Knowledge is 70’s and on and I’d go up against anyone in that. Before I’d defer to you on anything previous. I saw so many people newspapers said was underboss that weren’t. I don’t believe in the outfit it was loosely used I think that was in the media

I agree, only the feds and the media used those terms for the Outfit so they can try to explain the organization at the time. I also never saw in my whole research for terms like consiglere or underboss being used by these guys in the old days. They used street terms like "clique" (confirmed by Giancana, Ferraro, Humphreys, Alex, Joe Costello) and similar stuff like the ones i already mentioned.

And I also think that maybe you should post your thoughts on the new area, just so we can get this convo going because im personally locked up at home and dont have anything else to do lol thats why im posting lineages regarding those damn non-Italian crews lol

I think I’ve stated before I am not even sure If the outfit has an actual boss and underboss today but more the capos do their thing as they see fit. I’ve seen nothing that shows it’s as hierarchical as it was. That’s why I have changed my stance on the outfit over the last 5 years. And I think as you and I both agree these websites stating boss underboss and consiglier( when there never has been such a role) are completely off base. I can say with almost certainty that delaurentis is not the boss or the consigliere lol. Now I do think they are very active. But some of the most active guys are not guys even recognized as made or being anything above soldier. From what I’ve seen tony dote still has major juice and a ton of money. I’ve witnessed people kiss his ass and fall all over him. Nick catauadella as well. Dino Marino and nick ferriola as well are players. But players in what? They all mostly do their own thing and anyone who says otherwise is off base. And of course albie vena is a major major player first among equals. But do I think dote and Nicky c and Dino and nick ferriola kick up to him? No I don’t. I think it’s way more loose. And maybe I’m completely wrong and there is a boss underboss and consigliere and 5 capos and 100 soldiers but I’d bet everything I have that’s not the case. Difronzo permanently changed the course of the outfit when he stopped making guys in the 90’s. Marcello tried to go back to the old ways but was locked up in less than 2 years. Anyone who claims to know the outfit hierarchy is lying or pushing a story or both. To me it looks like Cleveland all over again they stopped making guys and eventually died

I agree that these days theres probably no more top administration like in the old days, but instead it seems that there are only two remaining factions, one being North/West with guys like Vena, Dote and Spina, and the other faction is represented by Inendino, Cataudella and Caruso. Im not saying that these guys are still active, except for Vena who is obviously still on the feds' menu

Vena dote Spina and Nicky c are. Salvatore Cataudella I couldn’t say. Jimmy i could very well be retired. But I agree with your contention but I think it’s more west and south.

[Pete]

The old north side which included elm wood park isn’t a real crew just some guys operating basically independently. Grand ave and Chinatown are still the powers as well as Cicero. If you go to Chinatown area it’s like going back in time. Social clubs with guys parking their cars on the sidewalk.

[Pete]

One of the funniest things is fratto boss of the elm wood park crew. Hasn’t beeen such a crew in many years

[Villain]

Ive also seen some references like for example the terms "number two" or "relay man" being used to describe the underboss position and "the Man" to describe the top bosses such as Ricca or later Accardo.

In all honesty the only times I’ve seen people mentioned as underboss that weren’t were in the papers. Outfit was pretty clear. I never say anything from an outfit member that used the underboss term loosely. It was cerone then passed to difronzo. Papers can say so and so was underboss but where’s the proof. Villain I defer to you when it comes to wiretaps and certain research. Did you ever see anything that disagrees with the hierarchy we agree on? As you and me spoke about my main Knowledge is 70’s and on and I’d go up against anyone in that. Before I’d defer to you on anything previous. I saw so many people newspapers said was underboss that weren’t. I don’t believe in the outfit it was loosely used I think that was in the media

I agree, only the feds and the media used those terms for the Outfit so they can try to explain the organization at the time. I also never saw in my whole research for terms like consiglere or underboss being used by these guys in the old days. They used street terms like "clique" (confirmed by Giancana, Ferraro, Humphreys, Alex, Joe Costello) and similar stuff like the ones i already mentioned.

And I also think that maybe you should post your thoughts on the new area, just so we can get this convo going because im personally locked up at home and dont have anything else to do lol thats why im posting lineages regarding those damn non-Italian crews lol

I think I’ve stated before I am not even sure If the outfit has an actual boss and underboss today but more the capos do their thing as they see fit. I’ve seen nothing that shows it’s as hierarchical as it was. That’s why I have changed my stance on the outfit over the last 5 years. And I think as you and I both agree these websites stating boss underboss and consiglier( when there never has been such a role) are completely off base. I can say with almost certainty that delaurentis is not the boss or the consigliere lol. Now I do think they are very active. But some of the most active guys are not guys even recognized as made or being anything above soldier. From what I’ve seen tony dote still has major juice and a ton of money. I’ve witnessed people kiss his ass and fall all over him. Nick catauadella as well. Dino Marino and nick ferriola as well are players. But players in what? They all mostly do their own thing and anyone who says otherwise is off base. And of course albie vena is a major major player first among equals. But do I think dote and Nicky c and Dino and nick ferriola kick up to him? No I don’t. I think it’s way more loose. And maybe I’m completely wrong and there is a boss underboss and consigliere and 5 capos and 100 soldiers but I’d bet everything I have that’s not the case. Difronzo permanently changed the course of the outfit when he stopped making guys in the 90’s. Marcello tried to go back to the old ways but was locked up in less than 2 years. Anyone who claims to know the outfit hierarchy is lying or pushing a story or both. To me it looks like Cleveland all over again they stopped making guys and eventually died

I agree that these days theres probably no more top administration like in the old days, but instead it seems that there are only two remaining factions, one being North/West with guys like Vena, Dote and Spina, and the other faction is represented by Inendino, Cataudella and Caruso. Im not saying that these guys are still active, except for Vena who is obviously still on the feds' menu

Vena dote Spina and Nicky c are. Salvatore Cataudella I couldn’t say. Jimmy i could very well be retired. But I agree with your contention but I think it’s more west and south.

Thanks for your opinion and yeah i agree that its more like west and south these days.

What are your thoughts regarding Caruso and them fellas? He came from a long line of Mafiosi but there isnt anything out there to indicate that he is still active...except for Nick F...he was under Caruso right?

[Villain]

The old north side which included elm wood park

I really appreciate this statement since by the early 1990s, the old North Side mob under Solano was finished and most of their interests were absorbed by the Elmwood Park crew, followed by the Grand Av boys. Even though the Cicero crew had huge interests around Lake County, still I believe that most of the North Side area fell in the hands of the two previously mentioned groups. I also think that the main connection on the North Side between the Grand Av and EP crews at the time was the close relation between Lombardo and Andriacchi.

On the other hand, both the Cicero and Chinatown crews divided the South Side and Chicago Heights territories, and later they also absorbed the MP area.

[Angelo Santino]

The old north side which included elm wood park

I really appreciate this statement since by the early 1990s, the old North Side mob under Solano was finished and most of their interests were absorbed by the Elmwood Park crew, followed by the Grand Av boys. Even though the Cicero crew had huge interests around Lake County, still I believe that most of the North Side area fell in the hands of the two previously mentioned groups. I also think that the main connection on the North Side between the Grand Av and EP crews at the time was the close relation between Lombardo and Andriacchi.

On the other hand, both the Cicero and Chinatown crews divided the South Side and Chicago Heights territories, and later they also absorbed the MP area.

What are your guys' thoughts on the possibility that from 1931 until present day (?) that the Chicago leadership FORMALLY had a #1 and #2, boss/underboss whatever you want to call it. Perhaps they had no formal consig and had senior members outside of the formal #1 and #2 system? Similar to Detroit's "Counselor Emeritus"?

(I enjoy each and every post, I wish the "like" function was still there, I read these post and just take it in, I have nothing to say other than "good post" which is pointless to do every time.)

[Stroccos]

1. no, my only point about rockman is he coming up with schmes that brought in millions of dollars while a guy like carmen basile is getting ten percent of dice games and running a bar on the westside of Cleveland , of course a made guy like carmen would out rank Rockman but rockman is bringing in millions over the years compared to peanuts from a made guy. whose worth more to a boss

2. it was a subservient relationship, made guys were the upper crust for the people in the streets etc you were subservient

hard to believe a guy like carabbia wasn't made being he was controlling a vast operation

yeah the card shop gambling case , Martin defabio ran the gambling operations and kicked direct to licavoli , I would venture to guess licavoli had one of his guys picked up the cash for him ,

a good example the relationship of a associate with some clout Jackie presser , when he was appointed teamster national president , he had to take orders direct from clevelands new boss peanuts tronolone who was the proxy for tony salerno . Rockman was out as his Cleveland mob contact he had to deal with the family direct now. both were subservient to tronolone wishes. apparently presser didn't want to meet with made guys under any circumstances but had no choice if he wanted to be national president


3. jimmy coppola , westside godfather carmen basile wanted him in his crew to be his number 2 aka underboss


4. i cant think of any other calabrese made in cleveland , i think someone posted infor about scalish dad came from carinese he was born in the usa if i recall , the early days are confusing

1 True but as per Lonardo's testimony, following Scalish' death he said they looked to Rockman as the boss temporarily. I think we can all agree it was an informal description as opposed to a literal action. But Cleveland was a relative small family which was arguably tight-knight, primarily Sicilian. And then we have Rockman's status in that. Very interesting.

2 I wondered why Cleveland's YT crew was allowed to wither and die. They had influence there in the 20's-40's and then gradually it withered down to nothing while Pittsburgh had an enduring continuous crew there. For a time I suspected if that was evidence of Cleveland "ceding" YT to PB under Scalish but when you look at the entire picture, everything under Scalish withered. The natural depletion of members that went on in YT was going on in CL and AK.

2B Do you think it could be argued that there was a Cleveland Mafia (composed of the made members) and then a Cleveland Syndicate, an informal extention and almost recognized local group, which allowed for non-made members to identify as representatives of the Organization locally?

3 That's right, Coppola

4 Very few, before the 1980's with Licavoli, those who got in appeared to either have some serious bloodlines or were incredibly influential to warrant membership. However, who knows how things operated pre-Scalish. Perhaps before that point Cleveland could have been much less conservative in their membership selection and admission.

Great post!

as far as calabrese went i forgot about the dagostino brothers, Frank
Dominic , ArcAngelo Very close to the MIlanos , I believe Frank was the only one who was made , frank was very respected by everyone, there were at least one making cermonies in his restaruant maybe two, calandra and liberatore and i recall correctly sinito and gallo ,

I dont know but i would believe that the dagostino brothers would of reported to Frank Milano in the 1920's before big joe was killed

1. yeah I lonardo said there was a sitdown and rockman gave the news that johhny scalish wanted jack white as boss , another time when rockmans role might of increased was during the danny greene trial

2, I dont know why Scalish had money coming in , maybe he didn't want any heat on himself apparently rockman had to talk him into going in on the vegas skim but they maintained some rigts to youngstown , they were getting 25 percent in the late 70's and 80's

2b yes, , most of the rackets were ran by non members , Basile is a perfect example he gets his 10 percent the people running the game can use the mobs backing, if you don't pay the syndicate takes action ,

4. apparently the books were closed until the late 40's, Lonardo testified he was proposed in the 30's but couldn't get made until the books were reopen in new York , so its likely Polizzi was convertive in making guys as well

[Pete]

The old north side which included elm wood park

I really appreciate this statement since by the early 1990s, the old North Side mob under Solano was finished and most of their interests were absorbed by the Elmwood Park crew, followed by the Grand Av boys. Even though the Cicero crew had huge interests around Lake County, still I believe that most of the North Side area fell in the hands of the two previously mentioned groups. I also think that the main connection on the North Side between the Grand Av and EP crews at the time was the close relation between Lombardo and Andriacchi.

On the other hand, both the Cicero and Chinatown crews divided the South Side and Chicago Heights territories, and later they also absorbed the MP area.

What are your guys' thoughts on the possibility that from 1931 until present day (?) that the Chicago leadership FORMALLY had a #1 and #2, boss/underboss whatever you want to call it. Perhaps they had no formal consig and had senior members outside of the formal #1 and #2 system? Similar to Detroit's "Counselor Emeritus"?

(I enjoy each and every post, I wish the "like" function was still there, I read these post and just take it in, I have nothing to say other than "good post" which is pointless to do every time.)

Again I don’t wanna go out of my depth so you guys feel free to chime in. But from 70’s on we had a clear boss and underboss that identified themselves that way. Before that hard to say present day hard to say

[Pete]

But once again there was a senior advisor but I never heard of accardo telling the boss aiuppa he couldn’t do something. Aiuppa ordered hits like it was going out of style

[Confederate]

But once again there was a senior advisor but I never heard of accardo telling the boss aiuppa he couldn’t do something. Aiuppa ordered hits like it was going out of style

However, Accardo & Ricca both told Giancana he couldn't kill Roemer. So, maybe sometimes one of the Senior Advisors did overrule the Top 2? Roemer had his "walk talk" in Elmwood Park & appealed to Accardo to prevent anyone from from killing Bernie Glickman after Alderisio beat him up very badly.

In addition, there did not seem to be any set number of Senior Advisors. It seemed to me that when a powerful guy like Angelo LaPietra got out of prison, he was in some kind of a Senior Advisor role more in the background. Same applied to Joey Lombardo.

[Villain]

The old north side which included elm wood park

I really appreciate this statement since by the early 1990s, the old North Side mob under Solano was finished and most of their interests were absorbed by the Elmwood Park crew, followed by the Grand Av boys. Even though the Cicero crew had huge interests around Lake County, still I believe that most of the North Side area fell in the hands of the two previously mentioned groups. I also think that the main connection on the North Side between the Grand Av and EP crews at the time was the close relation between Lombardo and Andriacchi.

On the other hand, both the Cicero and Chinatown crews divided the South Side and Chicago Heights territories, and later they also absorbed the MP area.

What are your guys' thoughts on the possibility that from 1931 until present day (?) that the Chicago leadership FORMALLY had a #1 and #2, boss/underboss whatever you want to call it. Perhaps they had no formal consig and had senior members outside of the formal #1 and #2 system? Similar to Detroit's "Counselor Emeritus"?

(I enjoy each and every post, I wish the "like" function was still there, I read these post and just take it in, I have nothing to say other than "good post" which is pointless to do every time.)

I think it depends on the time period and also the power of some of the senior advisers possesed at the time....for example from the late 1940s until the mid 70s, they had top three fellas with the so-called number two guy or "underboss" being beneath them. Sometimes the #2 guy also had an adviser of his own, like in the Ferraro/Humphreys case.

It seems that when Cerone (former acting boss and senior adviser) became the new #2 guy under Aiuppa and Accardo, from that point on that same position received more importance and entered the top 3. After Cerone, DiFronzo became the #2 guy and he was also in the top three guys...this time period or from the mid 70s until the early 90s very much correspond with the Outfit accepting more of a CN image and i think that this lasted until they had a seat on the commission. After that the #2 spot was sometimes nonexistent or again fell under the top three, depending on the time period and other stuff