Understanding Chicago

[Villain]

I'm waiting for Stroccos to weigh in on Rockman, there's no one better. I also pm'd Scott D. and Scott Burnstein about associates in Tampa and Detroit.

Dear fellas:

1 What notable high level non-Italians were active in the Family's history?

2 Were there any that you would argue fit the "Chicago model" of close association or the "New York Model" of at-arms-length associates?

3 Any other interesting things to add about the subject. Your own thoughts on the matter.

No right or wrong. Salut.

Not sure why, but my post from last night never posted.

Anyhoo, Tampa had a huge number of non-Italians who were major players with Mafia, primarily Cubans and Spanish (from Spain), who all came from Ybor City.

Guys like:
Gus Perez (Cuban I believe, murdered in 1936)
Fernando Serrano (Spanish)
Johnny "Scarface" Rivera (Spanish)
Lou Figueredo Sr and Jr (Cuban)
Joe Pelusa Diaz (Cuban)
Ceasar Rodriguez (Cuban)
Jimmy Velasco (Spanish)
Baby Joe Diez (Cuban)
California Gene Rivero (Cuban)
George "Saturday" Zarate (Cuban)
Tito Rubio (Cuban)
Virgilio Fabian (Cuban)

Thank you.

Were any of these guys with Tampa in a way that in and around the city they "represented" Trafficante and the organization? Any examples of high level associates similar to a Gus Alex-Chicago situation? I'm not trying to fit anything into something, just curious how these guys paired with the Italians on the day to day. Didn't Trafficante have a Cuban crew?

yes. A few were very high ranking and were closer to Trafficante than some made guys.

Jimmy Velasco was THE political fixer in the 1940s for the Mafia and was the conduit between the underworld and upperworld. He, unfortunately, fell out with the mob and was killed on 12/12/48.

Joe "Baby JOe Diez was a major political fixer in the 70s and 80s. After Trafficante died, he became part of an elder "advisory council" to the Tampa family.

Johnny "Scarface" Rivera was another significant Spanish associate. though more of a lower level.


Trafficante had a crew of Cuban bolita men and drug traffickers in Miami following Castro's takeover. They were seperate than the CUbans and Spanish in Tampa.

Thanks for the info. Ever heard of Julian Lopez from New Orleans? It seems that during one period he was one of the main narcotics suppliers for the Chicago Heights faction of the Outfit...Besides Detriot and Chicago, I also read somewhere that Lopez was also allegedly connected to the Tampa family...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... _narcotics

[Angelo Santino]

yes. A few were very high ranking and were closer to Trafficante than some made guys.

Jimmy Velasco was THE political fixer in the 1940s for the Mafia and was the conduit between the underworld and upperworld. He, unfortunately, fell out with the mob and was killed on 12/12/48.

Joe "Baby JOe Diez was a major political fixer in the 70s and 80s. After Trafficante died, he became part of an elder "advisory council" to the Tampa family.

Johnny "Scarface" Rivera was another significant Spanish associate. though more of a lower level.


Trafficante had a crew of Cuban bolita men and drug traffickers in Miami following Castro's takeover. They were seperate than the CUbans and Spanish in Tampa.

That's interesting. It's all interesting.

While admitably, I fall on the side of B in terms if differentiating made members from associates, I (and B. for that matter at the end of the day) see the importance of these associates. Without them, Chicago, Cleveland, Tampa wouldn't have been as influential as they were.

So we had a Cuban, Joe Diez on the advisory counsel post-Trafficante? Can you expand on that? As B. can go into with more specifics than myself, other families across the midwest had some type of council or panel that included the admin, captains and elder members. Non-made members on a similar Tampanian model would be quite auspicious.

I truly think, at the heart of it all, each family was very similar with their outsider associatons. However with Valachi and the McClellan Comittee and the charts displaying nothing but Ital names, NY got "Italianized" by outsiders, with names such as Lansky or even a recent Watts quickly dismissed as "just an associate." But without a Valachi and those confines he lead to, people may have made different conclusions about NY.

[Stroccos]

Regarding the Outfit's organization and where Guzik/Humphreys/Alex existed in it, I'm not sure it compares to Joe Watts. I don't know enough about Watts to say much about him or make a good comparison. For this explanation I'll label Guzik/Humphreys/Alex as GHA. I'll try to compare GHA to Maishe Rockman, but my understanding of Rockman could be mistaken too since I haven't spent a lot of time investigating him. Rockman, as far as I know, was a close friend and associate of Jack Licavoli and John Scalish. He may or may not have had his own personal crew, but as far as I know if he did have a crew, the crew belonged to him and not the Cleveland Family.

GHA is different. GHA were actual members of the Chicago Family/Outfit without being members of LCN. They were the essentially capodecinas and consiglieri, but not sure if they had those titles. They had their own crews, but their crews also belonged to the Outfit like other crews. They were direct to the bosses and underbosses like other capodecinas, but they were not made members. Here is a little graph I just made that hopefully illustrates what I'm saying, but I never made a computer graph before so take it for what it's worth.

Chicago Outfit organization.jpg

One of the differences between NYC and Chicago is that we had Valachi providing public testimony on NY from a vantage point going back 30 years. With Chicago we could only observe things from the outside, as was the case with Detroit. Given that NY was a Sicilian-dominated city with the heaviest ties to Sicily, it was reflected in Valachi's testimony and charts. In any era there were outsiders closely aligned with certain families, however we were less inclined to include them because of the charts laid out which showed an all Italian organization, when on the street there were other ethnicities affiliated with them. However, as we all agree, there was a lower glass ceiling for NY associates than there were for Chicago's.

But Chicago isn't the only Family to have associates at the high level, putting aside Rockman (perhaps Stroccos can give a paragraph explain his role in Cleveland from a local perspective), Detroit also had non-Italian crew bosses (capos?) heading a crew of associates, answerable to Tony Jack in the admin.

Johnny Roselli was told he had to listen to Humphreys, if Carlo Gambino arrived with his under and consig and a few captains for a mafia/LCN get together I don't think Chicago would bring along any non-Italians and say they are not LCN members but Chicago members. So we all agree more than we don't.

Taking into account what's been said about The Chicago Outfit, let's reverse it and look at the difference with NYC, what it lacks that Chicago has. Would the argument be that the New York Families failed to form an umbrella outside of their own LCN members? That they lacked this extra padding of multi-ethnic involvement from the lowest to the administrative level that could be lumped into Genovese, Bonanno, etc?

Thanks for making that chart. Thank you for taking the time to explain it.

Rockman may of been the only non member to put someone in as boss unless we are to believe him that Johnny scalish told him he wanted jack licavoli to succeed him.

I would argue he was the number three man in the family , especially when licavoli was boss , a defacto consigliere with Tronolone but he didn't really have a big crew of his own . Anyhting he had belong to the mob , if another family wanted to deal with presser they would have to contact the Cleveland brass who then would call rockman to set up the meeting .

I guess where more focused with his ranking in the family being non Italian , I would say he outranked most of the made guys in Cleveland , In the sense he was making moves on the highest levels , he was privy to the top level dealings of the family while other made guys were not for example
r he knew about the vegas skim and Angelo lonardo testited he didn't officially know about the skim until he became underboss,

[Angelo Santino]

Rockman may of been the only non member to put someone in as boss unless we are to believe him that Johnny scalish told him he wanted jack licavoli to succeed him.

I would argue he was the number three man in the family , especially when licavoli was boss , a defacto consigliere with Tronolone but he didn't really have a big crew of his own . Anyhting he had belong to the mob , if another family wanted to deal with presser they would have to contact the Cleveland brass who then would call rockman to set up the meeting .

I guess where more focused with his ranking in the family being non Italian , I would say he outranked most of the made guys in Cleveland , In the sense he was making moves on the highest levels , he was privy to the top level dealings of the family while other made guys were not for example
r he knew about the vegas skim and Angelo lonardo testited he didn't officially know about the skim until he became underboss,

Cleveland has always been an anemic organization in terms of made members, at least since the 50's. In 1985, as we've covered, there were 10 made members and about 200 associates of various degrees that made the organization run.

1 Were there any instances of non-members issuing orders to made members?

2 How would you explain the dynamic between Formal Members and Non-Member Associates? I think Carabbia overseeing their YT/Warren interests without having been made (at least not while on the streets.) or the guys who were direct with Licavoli in his gambling operations. Card Shop Crew? I remember that correctly?

3 There was an associate who was transferred to another older member who told him he was going to be his underboss. Do you know what I'm talking about? Underboss was just a slang for number 2 or aide to this soldier.

4 A Ricca-esque figure in Cleveland is Tony Milano. One of the very few non-Sicilians besides his brother who became a member. Tony was Scalish's longtime Underboss and some reports (wrongly) imply he was The Real Power. I hate that stuff. Rather than try and pin some mythological power onto one person each guy contributes something different. The Milanos, from a very early period were involved with unions. They didn't, from what I can tell, have any crew of members under them, they were extentions/part of the Lonardo Licatesi faction of Cleveland. To further illustrate this point, Milano's protege was Tony Brancato, of Licatese descent. Aside from that demographic there was also Carini which was significant. I think Scalish was Carinese.

Thanks.

[Villain]

@Stroccos thanks.

Here are my thoughts on how the evolution of some of the Outfits non-Italian crews allegedly went down, such as the Guzik crew, Humphreys crew and Kruse's crew. Ill start with the Guzik group...

In 1931, Capones brother and overall boss of the South Side and Cicero mob, Ralph, went to prison, followed by Capones top adviser Jake Guzik who in turn was indicted on tax evasion charges that same year. So it was time for Phil D'Andrea to become the new overall boss of the so-called South Side mob that controlled the First Ward, Loop and Near South Side, including Chinatown, followed by Cicero and the South Side.

The Chinatown area was under the jurisdiction of D'Andreas protege Bruno Roti Sr, while the Loop and Near South Side belonged to the Guzik group. While in prison, Guziks interests were overseen by his older brother Harry.

Phil D'Andrea active (1925 - 1952), capo (1931), overall or territorial boss (1932 - 1943, 1947 - 1952)

Jake Guzik active (1925 -1955), crew boss (1928 - 1930) member of the ruling administration (1931; 1935 -1955)

Harry Guzik - acting crew boss under capo Phil D'Andrea (1931), official crew boss (1932 - 1935)

Crew members (1931 - 1936): Harry and Sam Guzik, Hyman Levine, Louis Lipshultz, Maxie Eisen, Joe Epstein, Charlie Tolposky, Sam Alex, George Alex, Gus Alex, John Ferraro, Frank Ferraro, Mike Potson, James Cuba, Nick Biondi, Frank Locascio, Malcolm and James Clarke, Jim Mullen

In 1935 Guzik was out of prison and remained as one of the Outfits top advisors, and so his top lieutenant Hyman Levine took over as acting boss of the crew until 1948, when he received a stroke, remained paralyzed and couldnt speak for the rest of his life.

Hyman Levine active (1925 - 1948), crew boss (1935 - 1948)

Crew members (1936-1947): Harry Guzik, Malcolm Clarke, Louis Lipshultz, Maxie Eisen, Joe Epstein, Jens Larkin, Charlie Tolposky, Gus Alex, George Alex, Frank Ferraro, John Ferraro, Tom Deveno, Mike Potson, Phil Katz, Maxie and Jack Eisen, Frank Ryan, Joe Bagnola, Max Caldwell. By this time Fred Morelli from the First Ward also joined this crew since his former boss from South Side Dennis Cooney died in 1942.

During the late 40s and early 50s Guzik was still looked upon as one of the top leaders in the Outfit but during this period his prime crew boss Levine was out of the picture, followed by Malcolm Clarke and Harry Guzik who both retired at the time, while Larkin was previously eliminated. I also think that during this period Maxie Eisen also retired and later died.

In 1952, Guziks close associate and old time Capone member Phil D'Andrea died and was succeeded by Bruno Roti Sr as boss of the South Side mob.

So from this point on the younger generation took over the crew but now for the first time it was headed by Italian member. Frank Ferraro allegedly took over the old Guzik crew with Gus Alex being his prime lieutenant. Both of them knew Roti Sr since the old days and sometimes used to work for him.There were still some leftovers from the old days but now we have more rising Italians in the crew.

During this period Rotis son-in-law Frank Caruso together with his brothers were in charge of the Chinatown area, but reports say that by now Caruso was still a lieutenant, not a capo, and besides being direct with his father-in-law, he also answered to his buddies from the old days Ferraro and his lieutenant Alex. This means that the Chinatown crew merged with the large Guzik/Ferraro group, which in fact gave Ferraro huge influence among his peers in the Outfit.

In addition, in 1952 or 53, Roti Sr and the Outfits boss Tony Accardo made a plan to infiltrate several of Rotis and Ferraros crew members in the First Ward and they succeeded in doing it.

Frank Ferraro active (1930s -1964) capo (1948 - 1956) underboss (1957 - 1964)

Crew members (1948 - 1956): Gus and George Alex, Frank Ryan, Joe Epstein, Fred Morelli, Phil Katz, Louis, Joe, Mike and Tom Briatta, Louis, Frank and Tony Tornabene, Augie Circella, Louis Arger, Gus Zapas, Pete Kokenes, Max Dolgin. Durind the early 1950s Kokenes transfered from the former Paul Labriola crew.

Members from the Chinatown and First Ward under the jurisdiction of Roti Sr and Ferraro: Frank, Morris and Pete Caruso, Pat Marcy, John D'Arco, Sam Roti, Fred Roti, Tony Munizzo, Charles Bertucci, Dominick Scalfaro, Benjamin Jacobson, Edward Joyce, Dominick Scalfaro

In 1956 Guzik died followed by Roti Sr in 1957, and so Ferraro was bumped up to the underboss position, while Alex received his first high stature as being Ferraros overseer of the old South Side faction.

In addition, it seems that from this point on Caruso's crew began to operate separately from the old Guzik crew, but still under the jurisdiction of the representative for the South Side mob Gus Alex and the new underboss Ferraro.

Heres how the old Guzik crew looked like from 1957 until 1964

Frank Ferraro - underboss for the whole organization

Gus Alex active (mid 1930s - 1991), territorial boss (1957 - 1970), member of ruling administration (1971 - 1991) - acting territorial boss for Ferraro for the whole South Side mob. In plane words, Alex took Rotis and D'Andreas previous positions.

Louis Briatta active (1930s - 1962) crew boss (1957 - 1962) - crew boss for Ferraro and Alex over the old Guzik/Ferraro crew. I labeled Briatta as crew boss since i dont have any official information if he was ever an official capo, although most of his actions confirmed very similar stature

Crew members (1957 - 1962): Sam Alex, Louis Tornabene, Nick Kokenes, Gus Zapas, Louis Arger, George and Nick Bravos, John Varlas, Pete Kokenes, August Circella, Frank Tornabene, Dominick Laino, Sid Frazin, George Pappas, John Fezekas, John and George Photakis, Phil Scher, Joe, Mike and Tom Briatta

In 1964 Ferraro died, but Alex remained as the overall boss of the South Side mob, same as Caruso as capo of the Chinatown crew. By 1963, Alexs crew boss around the Loop and Near South Side Louie Briatta retired because of serious health issues and so in his place came Pat Marcy who by now was in charge of the First Ward but now he also received the Loop, while Caruso absorbed the Near South Side.

Pat Marcy active (1940s - 1991) crew boss (1964 - 1970) - I labeled Marcy as crew boss because i dont believe that he was an official capo, but instead he took care of Alex's jurisdiction over the group, since many of these fellas brought cash, took adice or asked for protection from Marcy.

Crew members: Fred Roti, John D'Arco, Richard Cain, Ignatius Spachese, Augie Circella, Nick Kokenes, Willie Lamnatos, John Valsamolis, John Carone, Gust Koroveses, George and Nick Bravos

By the mid 60s, Alex asked one powerful capo from the West Side area Fiore Buccieri to help with their collections around the Loop, mainly because most of Marcys associates were political fixers and bookmakers, not musclemen or enforcers. By the late 1960s, Alex ordered for most of crew's illegal operations around the Loop and Near South Side to be closed down temporarily, so thats when the Buccieri crew from the west side area began taking over many of Alexs interests and the old South Side mob in general.

After awhile, or by the early 70s, the old South Side mob was almost finished, with Alex, Caruso, Marcy, Roti and one Lenny Patrick being the last of the Mohicans.

By now Alex took over Guziks previous position on the ruling administration as senior adviser, with Marcy and Roti being his top lieutenants in the First Ward.

In 1979, Caruso retired because of health issues and so his territory and what was left of his crew, was absorbed by the Buccieri group.

Back in 1959, Giancana ordered for Lenny Patrick to answer directly to Alex and from that point on Patrick operated as one of Alexs quite successful crew bosses in Lawndale and also in Rogers Park on the North Side, until 1990 when Patrick became informer and brought down his old boss. During the same time period both Marcy and Roti also had serious problems with the government, and so Marcy died during his trial, while his buddy Roti was sentenced to prison.

This was the end of the old Guzik crew. Next the Murray Humphreys crew....

[Stroccos]

Rockman may of been the only non member to put someone in as boss unless we are to believe him that Johnny scalish told him he wanted jack licavoli to succeed him.

I would argue he was the number three man in the family , especially when licavoli was boss , a defacto consigliere with Tronolone but he didn't really have a big crew of his own . Anyhting he had belong to the mob , if another family wanted to deal with presser they would have to contact the Cleveland brass who then would call rockman to set up the meeting .

I guess where more focused with his ranking in the family being non Italian , I would say he outranked most of the made guys in Cleveland , In the sense he was making moves on the highest levels , he was privy to the top level dealings of the family while other made guys were not for example
r he knew about the vegas skim and Angelo lonardo testited he didn't officially know about the skim until he became underboss,

Cleveland has always been an anemic organization in terms of made members, at least since the 50's. In 1985, as we've covered, there were 10 made members and about 200 associates of various degrees that made the organization run.

1 Were there any instances of non-members issuing orders to made members?

2 How would you explain the dynamic between Formal Members and Non-Member Associates? I think Carabbia overseeing their YT/Warren interests without having been made (at least not while on the streets.) or the guys who were direct with Licavoli in his gambling operations. Card Shop Crew? I remember that correctly?

3 There was an associate who was transferred to another older member who told him he was going to be his underboss. Do you know what I'm talking about? Underboss was just a slang for number 2 or aide to this soldier.

4 A Ricca-esque figure in Cleveland is Tony Milano. One of the very few non-Sicilians besides his brother who became a member. Tony was Scalish's longtime Underboss and some reports (wrongly) imply he was The Real Power. I hate that stuff. Rather than try and pin some mythological power onto one person each guy contributes something different. The Milanos, from a very early period were involved with unions. They didn't, from what I can tell, have any crew of members under them, they were extentions/part of the Lonardo Licatesi faction of Cleveland. To further illustrate this point, Milano's protege was Tony Brancato, of Licatese descent. Aside from that demographic there was also Carini which was significant. I think Scalish was Carinese.

Thanks.

1. no, my only point about rockman is he coming up with schmes that brought in millions of dollars while a guy like carmen basile is getting ten percent of dice games and running a bar on the westside of Cleveland , of course a made guy like carmen would out rank Rockman but rockman is bringing in millions over the years compared to peanuts from a made guy. whose worth more to a boss

2. it was a subservient relationship, made guys were the upper crust for the people in the streets etc you were subservient

hard to believe a guy like carabbia wasn't made being he was controlling a vast operation

yeah the card shop gambling case , Martin defabio ran the gambling operations and kicked direct to licavoli , I would venture to guess licavoli had one of his guys picked up the cash for him ,

a good example the relationship of a associate with some clout Jackie presser , when he was appointed teamster national president , he had to take orders direct from clevelands new boss peanuts tronolone who was the proxy for tony salerno . Rockman was out as his Cleveland mob contact he had to deal with the family direct now. both were subservient to tronolone wishes. apparently presser didn't want to meet with made guys under any circumstances but had no choice if he wanted to be national president


3. jimmy coppola , westside godfather carmen basile wanted him in his crew to be his number 2 aka underboss


4. i cant think of any other calabrese made in cleveland , i think someone posted infor about scalish dad came from carinese he was born in the usa if i recall , the early days are confusing

[sdeitche]

yes. A few were very high ranking and were closer to Trafficante than some made guys.

Jimmy Velasco was THE political fixer in the 1940s for the Mafia and was the conduit between the underworld and upperworld. He, unfortunately, fell out with the mob and was killed on 12/12/48.

Joe "Baby JOe Diez was a major political fixer in the 70s and 80s. After Trafficante died, he became part of an elder "advisory council" to the Tampa family.

Johnny "Scarface" Rivera was another significant Spanish associate. though more of a lower level.


Trafficante had a crew of Cuban bolita men and drug traffickers in Miami following Castro's takeover. They were seperate than the CUbans and Spanish in Tampa.

That's interesting. It's all interesting.

While admitably, I fall on the side of B in terms if differentiating made members from associates, I (and B. for that matter at the end of the day) see the importance of these associates. Without them, Chicago, Cleveland, Tampa wouldn't have been as influential as they were.

So we had a Cuban, Joe Diez on the advisory counsel post-Trafficante? Can you expand on that? As B. can go into with more specifics than myself, other families across the midwest had some type of council or panel that included the admin, captains and elder members. Non-made members on a similar Tampanian model would be quite auspicious.

I truly think, at the heart of it all, each family was very similar with their outsider associatons. However with Valachi and the McClellan Comittee and the charts displaying nothing but Ital names, NY got "Italianized" by outsiders, with names such as Lansky or even a recent Watts quickly dismissed as "just an associate." But without a Valachi and those confines he lead to, people may have made different conclusions about NY.

After Trafficante passed in 87 there was an ad-hoc group of old timers who became sort of an advisory council to the mob: Jimmy Longo, Tom Diecidue, Sam Trafficante, Al Scaglione, Baby Joe Diez, and Arthur Perla. They met in restaurants, sometimes at Diecidue's house and became sort of consilgieres. They all pretty much died by the mid 1990s.

[Angelo Santino]

1. no, my only point about rockman is he coming up with schmes that brought in millions of dollars while a guy like carmen basile is getting ten percent of dice games and running a bar on the westside of Cleveland , of course a made guy like carmen would out rank Rockman but rockman is bringing in millions over the years compared to peanuts from a made guy. whose worth more to a boss

2. it was a subservient relationship, made guys were the upper crust for the people in the streets etc you were subservient

hard to believe a guy like carabbia wasn't made being he was controlling a vast operation

yeah the card shop gambling case , Martin defabio ran the gambling operations and kicked direct to licavoli , I would venture to guess licavoli had one of his guys picked up the cash for him ,

a good example the relationship of a associate with some clout Jackie presser , when he was appointed teamster national president , he had to take orders direct from clevelands new boss peanuts tronolone who was the proxy for tony salerno . Rockman was out as his Cleveland mob contact he had to deal with the family direct now. both were subservient to tronolone wishes. apparently presser didn't want to meet with made guys under any circumstances but had no choice if he wanted to be national president


3. jimmy coppola , westside godfather carmen basile wanted him in his crew to be his number 2 aka underboss


4. i cant think of any other calabrese made in cleveland , i think someone posted infor about scalish dad came from carinese he was born in the usa if i recall , the early days are confusing

1 True but as per Lonardo's testimony, following Scalish' death he said they looked to Rockman as the boss temporarily. I think we can all agree it was an informal description as opposed to a literal action. But Cleveland was a relative small family which was arguably tight-knight, primarily Sicilian. And then we have Rockman's status in that. Very interesting.

2 I wondered why Cleveland's YT crew was allowed to wither and die. They had influence there in the 20's-40's and then gradually it withered down to nothing while Pittsburgh had an enduring continuous crew there. For a time I suspected if that was evidence of Cleveland "ceding" YT to PB under Scalish but when you look at the entire picture, everything under Scalish withered. The natural depletion of members that went on in YT was going on in CL and AK.

2B Do you think it could be argued that there was a Cleveland Mafia (composed of the made members) and then a Cleveland Syndicate, an informal extention and almost recognized local group, which allowed for non-made members to identify as representatives of the Organization locally?

3 That's right, Coppola

4 Very few, before the 1980's with Licavoli, those who got in appeared to either have some serious bloodlines or were incredibly influential to warrant membership. However, who knows how things operated pre-Scalish. Perhaps before that point Cleveland could have been much less conservative in their membership selection and admission.

Great post!

[Angelo Santino]

yes. A few were very high ranking and were closer to Trafficante than some made guys.

Jimmy Velasco was THE political fixer in the 1940s for the Mafia and was the conduit between the underworld and upperworld. He, unfortunately, fell out with the mob and was killed on 12/12/48.

Joe "Baby JOe Diez was a major political fixer in the 70s and 80s. After Trafficante died, he became part of an elder "advisory council" to the Tampa family.

Johnny "Scarface" Rivera was another significant Spanish associate. though more of a lower level.


Trafficante had a crew of Cuban bolita men and drug traffickers in Miami following Castro's takeover. They were seperate than the CUbans and Spanish in Tampa.

That's interesting. It's all interesting.

While admitably, I fall on the side of B in terms if differentiating made members from associates, I (and B. for that matter at the end of the day) see the importance of these associates. Without them, Chicago, Cleveland, Tampa wouldn't have been as influential as they were.

So we had a Cuban, Joe Diez on the advisory counsel post-Trafficante? Can you expand on that? As B. can go into with more specifics than myself, other families across the midwest had some type of council or panel that included the admin, captains and elder members. Non-made members on a similar Tampanian model would be quite auspicious.

I truly think, at the heart of it all, each family was very similar with their outsider associatons. However with Valachi and the McClellan Comittee and the charts displaying nothing but Ital names, NY got "Italianized" by outsiders, with names such as Lansky or even a recent Watts quickly dismissed as "just an associate." But without a Valachi and those confines he lead to, people may have made different conclusions about NY.

After Trafficante passed in 87 there was an ad-hoc group of old timers who became sort of an advisory council to the mob: Jimmy Longo, Tom Diecidue, Sam Trafficante, Al Scaglione, Baby Joe Diez, and Arthur Perla. They met in restaurants, sometimes at Diecidue's house and became sort of consilgieres. They all pretty much died by the mid 1990s.

Still interesting that a Cuban was on the panel. Seems like Tampa was a very tight-knight group, like Cleveland also primarily Sicilian and yet with both groups we see outsiders in semi-leadership positions.

[B.]

So we had a Cuban, Joe Diez on the advisory counsel post-Trafficante? Can you expand on that? As B. can go into with more specifics than myself, other families across the midwest had some type of council or panel that included the admin, captains and elder members. Non-made members on a similar Tampanian model would be quite auspicious.

Yeah, the council I was talking about appears to have been a common practice within the Sicilian-American mafia families around the US up to a certain point of time.

Informants describe this in similar, if not the same, terms in the following families:
San Jose
Detroit
Tampa
Kansas City
St. Louis
Milwaukee
Pittsburgh
San Francisco

This was called the "sagia" in Milwaukee (according to Maniaci) and Gentile refers to it as the "consiglio" in San Francisco and Pittsburgh (not to be confused with the "Grand Consiglio" which acted on behalf of the national mafia). Others refer to it simply as a "council", which makes sense given Gentile called it a "consiglio". This council usually included the administration, captains, and certain senior soldiers in the examples that have been given and they would give opinions/advice on policy to the boss. In Gentile's case, the local San Francisco "consiglio" approved his transfer into their family.

Interesting that Tampa eventually included a non-Italian on a later version of this sort of council given how heavily Sicilian they were. It seems that this later version of the council would have been less formal than the traditional Sicilian model used in all of these early families, but it still stands that a non-Italian had that level of status in Tampa. The connections to the Cubans and their presence in Florida are undeniable, though, so we can see where circumstance sometimes wins over tradition.

1. no, my only point about rockman is he coming up with schmes that brought in millions of dollars while a guy like carmen basile is getting ten percent of dice games and running a bar on the westside of Cleveland , of course a made guy like carmen would out rank Rockman but rockman is bringing in millions over the years compared to peanuts from a made guy. whose worth more to a boss

This is a big part of it from my view. Certain people had merit earned on an individual basis, and in the case of certain non-Italians it made them "essential" to the organization regardless of mafia membership. In Chicago they had a number of these individual non-Italians who proved their merit, so it sort of became a fixed position for a number of years. In other families, they had certain non-Italians (i.e. Watts, Rockman) who were arguably similar to Chicago's non-Italians, but it was a much more temporary situation because they had fewer non-Italians (or none) of that stature to step into that role once the given individual died/retired.

In the mafia structure on the other hand, the underboss position is usually going to be filled no matter what regardless of who has the position (except in families that are dwindling, the Gambinos in the years after Gravano, and other exceptions). An Italian can be promoted to underboss or captain in a mafia family even if he's a complete hack, while Chicago wasn't going to replace Guzik, Humphreys, or Alex with just anyone -- it had to be someone who had earned his reputation. We even have bosses of mafia families who had little respect on the street, while these Chicago non-Italian leaders had to be highly respected. An official high-ranking member within the mafia structure can be a figurehead with no functional power, but a non-Italian in Chicago was never going to be just a figurehead, hence their role being more related to function than mafia politics.

What I see in common between all of these families, whether it's Chicago, New York/Gamino, Tampa, or Cleveland, is that the boss of the mafia family authorized the important non-Italians to act as leaders in every instance. We don't see the bosses (i.e. rappresentanti) playing second fiddle to non-Italians, so the authority of the non-Italians was always endorsed by the boss himself and the reputation of the individual non-Italians helped cement that position.

I truly think, at the heart of it all, each family was very similar with their outsider associatons. However with Valachi and the McClellan Comittee and the charts displaying nothing but Ital names, NY got "Italianized" by outsiders, with names such as Lansky or even a recent Watts quickly dismissed as "just an associate." But without a Valachi and those confines he lead to, people may have made different conclusions about NY.

This is exactly how I see it, too. The extensive cooperation of members in certain areas, like NYC, has greatly contributed to our view. However, even in NYC I believe different sources would have a different perspective (that isn't necessarily wrong) depending on who they interacted with and where they operated, including what businesses, rackets, and other operations they were in. I go back to the example of the 1950s informant who said Lansky was above Tommy Lucchese in the garment industry. It's not necessarily wrong, but definitely a different perspective from a member who would see Tommy Lucchese above Lansky given that Lucchese was a mafia boss.

[Pete]

Ive also seen some references like for example the terms "number two" or "relay man" being used to describe the underboss position and "the Man" to describe the top bosses such as Ricca or later Accardo.

In all honesty the only times I’ve seen people mentioned as underboss that weren’t were in the papers. Outfit was pretty clear. I never say anything from an outfit member that used the underboss term loosely. It was cerone then passed to difronzo. Papers can say so and so was underboss but where’s the proof. Villain I defer to you when it comes to wiretaps and certain research. Did you ever see anything that disagrees with the hierarchy we agree on? As you and me spoke about my main Knowledge is 70’s and on and I’d go up against anyone in that. Before I’d defer to you on anything previous. I saw so many people newspapers said was underboss that weren’t. I don’t believe in the outfit it was loosely used I think that was in the media

[Pete]

If anyone is interested I’d be happy to post my leadership succession and I promise it won’t include a consigliere as serious Chicago guys know they never had such a position. It was more loose and called advisor but not an official position

[Villain]

Ive also seen some references like for example the terms "number two" or "relay man" being used to describe the underboss position and "the Man" to describe the top bosses such as Ricca or later Accardo.

In all honesty the only times I’ve seen people mentioned as underboss that weren’t were in the papers. Outfit was pretty clear. I never say anything from an outfit member that used the underboss term loosely. It was cerone then passed to difronzo. Papers can say so and so was underboss but where’s the proof. Villain I defer to you when it comes to wiretaps and certain research. Did you ever see anything that disagrees with the hierarchy we agree on? As you and me spoke about my main Knowledge is 70’s and on and I’d go up against anyone in that. Before I’d defer to you on anything previous. I saw so many people newspapers said was underboss that weren’t. I don’t believe in the outfit it was loosely used I think that was in the media

I agree, only the feds and the media used those terms for the Outfit so they can try to explain the organization at the time. I also never saw in my whole research for terms like consiglere or underboss being used by these guys in the old days. They used street terms like "clique" (confirmed by Giancana, Ferraro, Humphreys, Alex, Joe Costello) and similar stuff like the ones i already mentioned.

And I also think that maybe you should post your thoughts on the new area, just so we can get this convo going because im personally locked up at home and dont have anything else to do lol thats why im posting lineages regarding those damn non-Italian crews lol

[Angelo Santino]

So we had a Cuban, Joe Diez on the advisory counsel post-Trafficante? Can you expand on that? As B. can go into with more specifics than myself, other families across the midwest had some type of council or panel that included the admin, captains and elder members. Non-made members on a similar Tampanian model would be quite auspicious.

Yeah, the council I was talking about appears to have been a common practice within the Sicilian-American mafia families around the US up to a certain point of time.

Informants describe this in similar, if not the same, terms in the following families:
San Jose
Detroit
Tampa
Kansas City
St. Louis
Milwaukee
Pittsburgh
San Francisco

This was called the "sagia" in Milwaukee (according to Maniaci) and Gentile refers to it as the "consiglio" in San Francisco and Pittsburgh (not to be confused with the "Grand Consiglio" which acted on behalf of the national mafia). Others refer to it simply as a "council", which makes sense given Gentile called it a "consiglio". This council usually included the administration, captains, and certain senior soldiers in the examples that have been given and they would give opinions/advice on policy to the boss. In Gentile's case, the local San Francisco "consiglio" approved his transfer into their family.

They called it Sagia? Could it had been a phonetic spelling for Seggia (dialect for chair). Detroit had what was called the chair.

When did Pittsburgh have a council? They were arguably the least Sicilian next to Chicago and New England.

This is exactly how I see it, too. The extensive cooperation of members in certain areas, like NYC, has greatly contributed to our view. However, even in NYC I believe different sources would have a different perspective (that isn't necessarily wrong) depending on who they interacted with and where they operated, including what businesses, rackets, and other operations they were in. I go back to the example of the 1950s informant who said Lansky was above Tommy Lucchese in the garment industry. It's not necessarily wrong, but definitely a different perspective from a member who would see Tommy Lucchese above Lansky given that Lucchese was a mafia boss.

Before Valachi, the LCN was often referred to by outsiders as the national syndicate, they didn't really differentiate between Italian and non. Even after Valachi there were still sources saying it was Italian but also brought in some Jews like Lansky "who had proven their loyalty."

I think the dynamic between members and non changes depending on the circumstance. If you and I are capo and soldier and we're building a bomb or business that I know more about, you're likely going to defer to me on that subject and the working relationship, from an external view, would be hard to decipher. Compared to let's say there's a mafia sitdown where you have to attend on account of some mistake I made, then it becomes the Sopranos scene with all the lingo.. The Joe Pistone/Lefty recordings kinda illustrate a similar relationship.

Lefty: "You need to--"
Pistone: "I need to what, this guy s a liar."
Lefty: "Uhhhh.... okay.... you know what, get off your high fucking horse and call me later."

In the mafia structure on the other hand, the underboss position is usually going to be filled no matter what regardless of who has the position (except in families that are dwindling, the Gambinos in the years after Gravano, and other exceptions). An Italian can be promoted to underboss or captain in a mafia family even if he's a complete hack, while Chicago wasn't going to replace Guzik, Humphreys, or Alex with just anyone -- it had to be someone who had earned his reputation. We even have bosses of mafia families who had little respect on the street, while these Chicago non-Italian leaders had to be highly respected. An official high-ranking member within the mafia structure can be a figurehead with no functional power, but a non-Italian in Chicago was never going to be just a figurehead, hence their role being more related to function than mafia politics.

What I see in common between all of these families, whether it's Chicago, New York/Gamino, Tampa, or Cleveland, is that the boss of the mafia family authorized the important non-Italians to act as leaders in every instance. We don't see the bosses (i.e. rappresentanti) playing second fiddle to non-Italians, so the authority of the non-Italians was always endorsed by the boss himself and the reputation of the individual non-Italians helped cement that position.

The former paragraph is a damn good point regarding ranks, formal and non.

The latter is also true. One thing we've never seen is a newly promoted LCN boss issuing a new decree prohibiting members from dealing with non-Italians in a total change of course from his predecessor.

[Villain]

Good points and I agree also but i have one question...what is the difference between when the boss authorized some capo or high level made member to takeover some area and give orders to other made guys and associates, and authorizing a non-Italian to takeover some area and issue orders to made members and associates?