Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Angelo Santino]

300 pages later, nobody changed his opinion.

Had Violi's statements been accepted this wouldn't have exceeded 10 pages.

One point that's been raised on both sides is the lack of activity in Buffalo proper. We've seen none of the familiar mob trademarks of gambling, extortion, shakedown, labor racketeering etc. That activity doesn't seem to exist. So whoever is on this side of the border has to be making money by other means. Everything seems to point to drug transactions.

[NickleCity]

300 pages later, nobody changed his opinion.

Had Violi's statements been accepted this wouldn't have exceeded 10 pages.

One point that's been raised on both sides is the lack of activity in Buffalo proper. We've seen none of the familiar mob trademarks of gambling, extortion, shakedown, labor racketeering etc. That activity doesn't seem to exist. So whoever is on this side of the border has to be making money by other means. Everything seems to point to drug transactions.

For what it's worth Anthony Gerace's (Joe Todaro's Nephew?) May 2019 indictment included evidence of sports gambling. It could be a one off or could point to traditional or trademark mob activity. I guess we will have to wait and see what comes out in court. Here is the relevant portion of the indictment.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph M. Tripi, who is handling the case, stated that according to the indictment and a previously filed complaint, on January 28, 2019, HSI special agents executed a search warrant at the defendant’s current residence at 9070 Michael Douglas Drive, Clarence Center, NY. Agents recovered multiple pounds of marijuana and other suspected marijuana products including gummy edibles and multiple pens of THC oil cartridges used for vaping; five handguns; nine rifles; hundreds of rounds of ammunition in various calibers; three cell phones; $103,360 in cash; and evidence of sports gambling.

See: https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdny/pr/cl ... un-charges

[Wiseguy]

Well I'm on the side of the United States Attorneys Office Eastern District of New York whose press release clearly stated 'members of the Todaro organised crime family"
The FBI, yup, my personal fantasy FBI, are on that side too (it was a joint release)

Yes, they cited "members of the Todaro crime family." Which some of the defendants were. That's not necessarily a comment on their view of the Buffalo LCN as a whole. And I think you know that.

Furthermore, notice how you'll accept the Buffalo family as being defunct only if the FBI explicitly says so. But you'll take their silence on the matter, or an ambiguous statement, as proof positive that they've done a 180 on the position they've held for years.

It States clearly THE TODARO CRIME FAMILY. Its YOU who are presuming inactivity. Where in that statement does it say the INACTVE Todaro crime family? Who's seeing what they want to see now?

I'm presuming inactivity? Where has the significant, ongoing activity been the last 20 years? Before and after the 2017 drug bust? Why weren't you guys tooting this horn about Buffalo before 2017?

What a stupid fucking comment "you can say RCMP all day long...' So I can state facts all day long?

Why all the tap dancing? Just answer this; Are the RCMP lying? Yes or No?

What RCMP statement are you actually referring to? Show me. Not an article, like the National Post article you and others keep referring to, where the author gives their own conclusion of what court papers or Project OTremens amounted to. Because - and maybe I've just spaced it - I haven't seen anything from the RCMP that is definitive as you guys are making it sound.

That said, for the sake of argument, let's say the RCMP and Canadian prosecutors said nothing less than, "Our investigation has found the Buffalo LCN, active in New York and Canada, has reorganized, become active, and is fully viable again."

That wouldn't hold more weight than the last 20 years in Buffalo, the context of the LCN in the U.S. as a whole, and the position of U.S. law enforcement.

One point that's been raised on both sides is the lack of activity in Buffalo proper. We've seen none of the familiar mob trademarks of gambling, extortion, shakedown, labor racketeering etc. That activity doesn't seem to exist. So whoever is on this side of the border has to be making money by other means. Everything seems to point to drug transactions.

There have been a few gambling cases over the past 20 years. As I've said, if you look at the list of cases involving Buffalo from 2000 to the present, you see a disjointed, free-for-all with no real cohesion that one would expect from a hiearachical, viable mob family. Not even at the level we've seen in the few families still considered active outside NY.

As far as drugs, we actually saw more drug involvement involving members and associates of what was left in Rochester than Buffalo through much of the last 20 years. In June 2006, Buffalo associate Leonard Mordino was indicted for cocaine distribution. NickleCity mentioned the Gambino/Filippo case in 2009 but the ties there are tenuous and go towards the free-for-all atmosphere in the area. Also Michael Messechia and Anthony Gerace, both tenuous connections as far as the Buffalo LCN goes, busted for marijuana trafficking.

The 2017 case was the only one that was significant and clearly tied to the Buffalo LCN. And, at this point, I have yet to see any evidence that we should expect anything else like that. If anything, Buffalo's relative proximity to the Canadian border makes the area a cross-region for drugs but it by no means should be concluded that the Buffalo LCN is a major player. The cases don't bear that out, nor do any of the New York Drug Threat Assessments over the past 20 years.

[Pogo The Clown]

The FBI recognizes members of the family. Not necessarily the family as a whole, as much as you want to twist it that way. During the Operation Thin Crust/Herbie Blitztein case in the late 1990's, authorities referred to "members of the Los Angeles crime family." That didn't mean they considered the organization as a whole viable.

I've also pointed this out several times. Case in point when Frank Saladino was indicted as the Boss of the Rockford family in the Family Screts case even though they hadn't recognized a family in Rockford for almost 20 years by that point. Of course that didn't stop the usual heated debate about the Rockford family still being around.


Pogo

[cavita]

The FBI recognizes members of the family. Not necessarily the family as a whole, as much as you want to twist it that way. During the Operation Thin Crust/Herbie Blitztein case in the late 1990's, authorities referred to "members of the Los Angeles crime family." That didn't mean they considered the organization as a whole viable.

I've also pointed this out several times. Case in point when Frank Saladino was indicted as the Boss of the Rockford family in the Family Screts case even though they hadn't recognized a family in Rockford for almost 20 years by that point. Of course that didn't stop the usual heated debate about the Rockford family still being around.


Pogo

I don't think he was indicted as the boss. He was an unindicted co-conspirator as he was already deceased and was listed as a member of the 26th Street/Chinatown Crew. In Nick Calabrese's threat assessment file he was again indicated as a member of the Chinatown Crew even though he hadn't been such for at least 15 years. The only time I had ever seen him called anything close to a boss was the threat assessment where it stated that information had been developed he was the boss of the Rockford family of LCN. Before I moved away Frank was given deferential treatment and respect but not what I would call boss-worthy. He was definitely a member of the Rockford LCN but never a made member of the Outfit. An interesting character anyway.

[Pogo The Clown]

That's probably it. My memory is hazy but I do remember some document coming out referring to him as the Boss of the Rockford family and causing a big commotion on the forums about Rockford still being around.


Pogo

[CabriniGreen]

I understand your sentiment and you could be right, but - and maybe I’m being optimistic - I can’t see the reason for a reorganisation after a decade of no criminal activity. What does Buffalo offer Violi? Because, if you contend that Buffalo was not involved in criminal activity since 2002 or so, then that means that Violi was more active, as an independent drug trafficker, than the Todaro crime family as a whole. That implies he had more muscle than the Todaro crime family - after all the family was not involved in any ongoing criminal activity - and he presumably was the only person in the family making money.

I'd say it has to do with status. Being a recognized made member of LCN still carries weight in the criminal circles he operated in regardless of where the induction came from.

That is what Angelo Lonardo, underboss of Cleveland said, which turned out to be true. Now we have Domenic Violi, underboss of Buffalo, making statements about the state of his family. Do you see the irony?

You haven't answered my question either. Do you think the FBI field office knows more about Buffalo than Violi? You basically said this (anyone in Canada) but I just want to be sure.

We did Violi say that we are disagreeing with? Except the "beating 30 guys" part which some chose to take literally.


Pogo

But that still leaves so many unanswered questions. Why was Todaro Jr.’s name spoken in code, if he’s a legit guy? Why was Todaro Jr. facilitating these promotions AND making ceremonies if he was inactive, or if the family as a whole was inactive? What’s in it for Todaro Jr.?

And, going back further - what put Violi in contact with Todaro Jr. in the first place? As you mentioned, Buffalo’s Hamilton crew has not had any busts since the early 1990s, when Violi was far too young to be hanging around with Todaro Jr.

And, another question - what made Violi aware of the Todaro crime family’s presence? As in, how did Violi - from Hamilton - even know that there was a defunct family to be inducted into? It’s common knowledge that the Todaro crime family essentially died around 2002-2006, with the union oversight being the nail in the coffin.

So how did Violi get into a position where he was even associating with Buffalo? Did he get a random phone call from Falzone in 2014? Did he ask around, LOOKING for somebody to pledge allegiance too?

Everything about the case indicates a criminal network in place that allows for such connections. Todaro Jr. has to have some sort of incentive to organise not one, but two making ceremonies. Rocco Lupino must have an incentive to be inducted, promoted to captain, and to sponsor crew members for induction. Todaro Jr. must have some incentive to use Gigante and Massino’s textbook codes. Zancocchio must have some incentive to go to Buffalo and congratulate Violi.

And, in between, there have to be far more connections than the ones presented in the indictment. Drug trafficking on that scale requires people in Buffalo to facilitate that end of things. Violi probably had other inductees with him in 2015. There were probably more proposed inductees than just Violi’s brother. If there is a captain in Hamilton, there’s presumably at least one captain in Buffalo. If there have been two Canadian guys inducted or proposed for induction in the past few years, there is probably an equal, if not greater, number of Buffalo inductees.

This differs from other mob cases from defunct families. When Steve Raffa from the Trafficante family and his crew was indicted in 2000, there were no allegations of planned induction ceremonies. There was no mention of the family’s boss, Vincent LoScalzo. There was no mention of a formal hierarchy structure or administration, other than Raffa being a capo and John Mamone being a soldier. With Raffa’s case, it’s clear that they were still operating like an LCN crew, but there weren’t many unanswered questions regarding the rest of the family. Raffa was a captain before the family became defunct, and his crew continued running afterwards. This Buffalo case is light years away because we have specific evidence of an ongoing structure, not just an old shell of a structure.

As far as how the Violis came into contact with, and knew of Buffalo, I'm assuming that's the Luppino component. Maybe the Luppinos old timers kept contact with Todaro, and the old Buffalo guard...

also, gohnjotti, everything you said, plus the direct line to Colombia is why I initially thought they were ndrangheta. It actually would have made more sense than them being Buffalo LCN, but hey, this is what it is....

[BobbyBacala]

I understand your sentiment and you could be right, but - and maybe I’m being optimistic - I can’t see the reason for a reorganisation after a decade of no criminal activity. What does Buffalo offer Violi? Because, if you contend that Buffalo was not involved in criminal activity since 2002 or so, then that means that Violi was more active, as an independent drug trafficker, than the Todaro crime family as a whole. That implies he had more muscle than the Todaro crime family - after all the family was not involved in any ongoing criminal activity - and he presumably was the only person in the family making money.

I'd say it has to do with status. Being a recognized made member of LCN still carries weight in the criminal circles he operated in regardless of where the induction came from.

That is what Angelo Lonardo, underboss of Cleveland said, which turned out to be true. Now we have Domenic Violi, underboss of Buffalo, making statements about the state of his family. Do you see the irony?

You haven't answered my question either. Do you think the FBI field office knows more about Buffalo than Violi? You basically said this (anyone in Canada) but I just want to be sure.

We did Violi say that we are disagreeing with? Except the "beating 30 guys" part which some chose to take literally.


Pogo

But that still leaves so many unanswered questions. Why was Todaro Jr.’s name spoken in code, if he’s a legit guy? Why was Todaro Jr. facilitating these promotions AND making ceremonies if he was inactive, or if the family as a whole was inactive? What’s in it for Todaro Jr.?

And, going back further - what put Violi in contact with Todaro Jr. in the first place? As you mentioned, Buffalo’s Hamilton crew has not had any busts since the early 1990s, when Violi was far too young to be hanging around with Todaro Jr.

And, another question - what made Violi aware of the Todaro crime family’s presence? As in, how did Violi - from Hamilton - even know that there was a defunct family to be inducted into? It’s common knowledge that the Todaro crime family essentially died around 2002-2006, with the union oversight being the nail in the coffin.

So how did Violi get into a position where he was even associating with Buffalo? Did he get a random phone call from Falzone in 2014? Did he ask around, LOOKING for somebody to pledge allegiance too?

Everything about the case indicates a criminal network in place that allows for such connections. Todaro Jr. has to have some sort of incentive to organise not one, but two making ceremonies. Rocco Lupino must have an incentive to be inducted, promoted to captain, and to sponsor crew members for induction. Todaro Jr. must have some incentive to use Gigante and Massino’s textbook codes. Zancocchio must have some incentive to go to Buffalo and congratulate Violi.

And, in between, there have to be far more connections than the ones presented in the indictment. Drug trafficking on that scale requires people in Buffalo to facilitate that end of things. Violi probably had other inductees with him in 2015. There were probably more proposed inductees than just Violi’s brother. If there is a captain in Hamilton, there’s presumably at least one captain in Buffalo. If there have been two Canadian guys inducted or proposed for induction in the past few years, there is probably an equal, if not greater, number of Buffalo inductees.

This differs from other mob cases from defunct families. When Steve Raffa from the Trafficante family and his crew was indicted in 2000, there were no allegations of planned induction ceremonies. There was no mention of the family’s boss, Vincent LoScalzo. There was no mention of a formal hierarchy structure or administration, other than Raffa being a capo and John Mamone being a soldier. With Raffa’s case, it’s clear that they were still operating like an LCN crew, but there weren’t many unanswered questions regarding the rest of the family. Raffa was a captain before the family became defunct, and his crew continued running afterwards. This Buffalo case is light years away because we have specific evidence of an ongoing structure, not just an old shell of a structure.

As far as how the Violis came into contact with, and knew of Buffalo, I'm assuming that's the Luppino component. Maybe the Luppinos old timers kept contact with Todaro, and the old Buffalo guard...

also, gohnjotti, everything you said, plus the direct line to Colombia is why I initially thought they were ndrangheta. It actually would have made more sense than them being Buffalo LCN, but hey, this is what it is....

Violi brothers were made into the ndrangheta by their uncle and then lcn by todaro by way of their uncle in canada at least you can be both

[CabriniGreen]

I understand your sentiment and you could be right, but - and maybe I’m being optimistic - I can’t see the reason for a reorganisation after a decade of no criminal activity. What does Buffalo offer Violi? Because, if you contend that Buffalo was not involved in criminal activity since 2002 or so, then that means that Violi was more active, as an independent drug trafficker, than the Todaro crime family as a whole. That implies he had more muscle than the Todaro crime family - after all the family was not involved in any ongoing criminal activity - and he presumably was the only person in the family making money.

I'd say it has to do with status. Being a recognized made member of LCN still carries weight in the criminal circles he operated in regardless of where the induction came from.

That is what Angelo Lonardo, underboss of Cleveland said, which turned out to be true. Now we have Domenic Violi, underboss of Buffalo, making statements about the state of his family. Do you see the irony?

You haven't answered my question either. Do you think the FBI field office knows more about Buffalo than Violi? You basically said this (anyone in Canada) but I just want to be sure.

We did Violi say that we are disagreeing with? Except the "beating 30 guys" part which some chose to take literally.


Pogo

But that still leaves so many unanswered questions. Why was Todaro Jr.’s name spoken in code, if he’s a legit guy? Why was Todaro Jr. facilitating these promotions AND making ceremonies if he was inactive, or if the family as a whole was inactive? What’s in it for Todaro Jr.?

And, going back further - what put Violi in contact with Todaro Jr. in the first place? As you mentioned, Buffalo’s Hamilton crew has not had any busts since the early 1990s, when Violi was far too young to be hanging around with Todaro Jr.

And, another question - what made Violi aware of the Todaro crime family’s presence? As in, how did Violi - from Hamilton - even know that there was a defunct family to be inducted into? It’s common knowledge that the Todaro crime family essentially died around 2002-2006, with the union oversight being the nail in the coffin.

So how did Violi get into a position where he was even associating with Buffalo? Did he get a random phone call from Falzone in 2014? Did he ask around, LOOKING for somebody to pledge allegiance too?

Everything about the case indicates a criminal network in place that allows for such connections. Todaro Jr. has to have some sort of incentive to organise not one, but two making ceremonies. Rocco Lupino must have an incentive to be inducted, promoted to captain, and to sponsor crew members for induction. Todaro Jr. must have some incentive to use Gigante and Massino’s textbook codes. Zancocchio must have some incentive to go to Buffalo and congratulate Violi.

And, in between, there have to be far more connections than the ones presented in the indictment. Drug trafficking on that scale requires people in Buffalo to facilitate that end of things. Violi probably had other inductees with him in 2015. There were probably more proposed inductees than just Violi’s brother. If there is a captain in Hamilton, there’s presumably at least one captain in Buffalo. If there have been two Canadian guys inducted or proposed for induction in the past few years, there is probably an equal, if not greater, number of Buffalo inductees.

This differs from other mob cases from defunct families. When Steve Raffa from the Trafficante family and his crew was indicted in 2000, there were no allegations of planned induction ceremonies. There was no mention of the family’s boss, Vincent LoScalzo. There was no mention of a formal hierarchy structure or administration, other than Raffa being a capo and John Mamone being a soldier. With Raffa’s case, it’s clear that they were still operating like an LCN crew, but there weren’t many unanswered questions regarding the rest of the family. Raffa was a captain before the family became defunct, and his crew continued running afterwards. This Buffalo case is light years away because we have specific evidence of an ongoing structure, not just an old shell of a structure.

As far as how the Violis came into contact with, and knew of Buffalo, I'm assuming that's the Luppino component. Maybe the Luppinos old timers kept contact with Todaro, and the old Buffalo guard...

also, gohnjotti, everything you said, plus the direct line to Colombia is why I initially thought they were ndrangheta. It actually would have made more sense than them being Buffalo LCN, but hey, this is what it is....

Violi brothers were made into the ndrangheta by their uncle and then lcn by todaro by way of their uncle in canada at least you can be both

Yikes!! Not disagreeing, but let's not reopen that can of worms, the double affiliate thing.... Different topic....

[CabriniGreen]

We will get sidetracked another 20 pages easy....

[CabriniGreen]

I understand your sentiment and you could be right, but - and maybe I’m being optimistic - I can’t see the reason for a reorganisation after a decade of no criminal activity. What does Buffalo offer Violi? Because, if you contend that Buffalo was not involved in criminal activity since 2002 or so, then that means that Violi was more active, as an independent drug trafficker, than the Todaro crime family as a whole. That implies he had more muscle than the Todaro crime family - after all the family was not involved in any ongoing criminal activity - and he presumably was the only person in the family making money.

So we’ve got a criminal organisation with no pattern of ongoing criminal activity. After about a decade of no ongoing criminal activity, they decided to induct one of Hamilton’s most prolific drug smugglers. Remember, the rest of the family has no meaningful activity going on. Violi, as a member of a criminal organisation with no ongoing criminal activity, flew to Florida to meet with the family’s boss, and was informed he would be promoted to underboss. And Violi, somehow, thinks this is a good deal for him. He thinks being the underboss of a family with no criminal activity is an important title. He beat out “30 guys” for the role. 30 guys - or maybe 12 guys - who are not involved in ongoing criminal activity. And they’re probably all geriatrics. But Violi, the one young guy in the family and the only racketeer in the entire organisation, is somehow proud of himself, as if he had competition for the title. He’s the first Canadian to serve as underboss. BUT, he’s the underboss of a family of squares. Nobody else is active other than him. He’s not getting any tribute money, right? Since the family as a whole is inactive. But he has to foot the bill for a flight to Florida. He has to speak about Todaro Jr. in code. There are presumably unnamed co-conspirators who passed the message of Violi’s promotion to New York. The Bonanno consigliere went to Buffalo to congratulate Violi, the lone racketeer left in the Buffalo mob.

I don’t know if that’s the argument you’re making, Pogo, but it just doesn’t add up. Whether the family continues to be active after 2017, I don’t know, but who else did they induct alongside Violi, if anyone? Who holds rank over the border in Buffalo? Were the two known making ceremonies held in Buffalo or Canada?

My favorite post so far... all the same questions I've asked myself... Like if Buffalo isnt a thing, this actually COMPLICATES the issue.... again, it would make MORE sense if they were part of ndrangheta....

Like Wiseguy, Pogo, I wish instead of beating the dead horse of If Buffalo exist, you would tackle those questions, again, focus on the Violis.

I mean, Pogo you seem to not even want to concede that they were big in drug trafficking, you keep trying to make it seem like their Narcotics clout comes from an association with NY, at the same time Wiseguy will argue the New Yorkers are marginalized in drugs, it makes my head hurt....

[CabriniGreen]

It's kinda the same if you say, well the majority of the activity is in Canada...

Then you guys come with, well most of the membership is in the states, but then turn right around and argue about how inactive they are...

Like arguing for the sake of arguing....

[Angelo Santino]

it would make MORE sense if they were part of ndrangheta....

Why do you say that?

Zooming out to the macro, it seems what the active Buffalo LCN or the active members of the inactive Buffalo LCN are engaged in and around the drug trade. Buffalo, economically isn't the city that it once was that would today warrant a local family, however they next to Detroit are one of the few border-city Families in the USA. Seems like these active Buffalo LCN'ers of the inactive Buffalo Family are well placed between the GTA and NYC underworld to play a significant role.

[CabriniGreen]

it would make MORE sense if they were part of ndrangheta....

Why do you say that?

Zooming out to the macro, it seems what the active Buffalo LCN or the active members of the inactive Buffalo LCN are engaged in and around the drug trade. Buffalo, economically isn't the city that it once was that would today warrant a local family, however they next to Detroit are one of the few border-city Families in the USA. Seems like these active Buffalo LCN'ers of the inactive Buffalo Family are well placed between the GTA and NYC underworld to play a significant role.

I agree with all of that, I've said it all before...

That it takes economically vibrant cities, the type of cities that have large unions with well paying jobs, for the type of large scale white collar crime we associate with the mafia. In economically depressed areas, you actually should EXPECT to see more drug trafficking, the people are more desperate. Looking for a daily escape.... It's the same with gambling.... I wouldnt look at the west side of Chicago looking for mutimillions in sportsbooks, look for the gambling machines in the back of the local store, slots.... what the poor are playing everyday...

The only thing I could ever see a criminal organization form anew around Buffalo would be its status as a border city. Meaning moving contraband, be it drugs, cigarettes..

When I looked at this initially, it was like, are they Bonnano members?

But when I thought about it, it was like, well when did they get made? Under Rastelli? I doubt it. Under Massino then? The most likely possibility, but that meant either they 1. Went to NY and got made, by... someone...
2. Someone FROM NY, went up there and made
them, like Zummo did with Morena....
3. Someone IN Canada made them.

I figured, if they went to NY and got made, we woulda heard about it from one of the rats, plus Vitale would have been aware of them. He would have mentioned them when questioned about Canada.

Same for a NY guy going up there to make em. It didnt happen (pre) the Vitale trips to Montreal, right? So it would have been after, so why didnt Massino say so?

I dont think the Rizzutos would have either made em themselves or authorized it if say, the Cotronis sponsored them....

The consensus on the boards was there wasnt any Buffalo.
Not only that, but guys seem hostile to the idea of a mobsters primary focus being drugs....


With the direct line to Colombia, all the drug trafficking, the family ties, and ties to the the Commisos with tobacco, it seemed logical at the time..

But of course now we know better

Basically Chris, I was just saying if they were ndrangheta and not Buffalo LCN, we wouldnt be having this intractable debate.....

[CabriniGreen]

it would make MORE sense if they were part of ndrangheta....

Why do you say that?

Zooming out to the macro, it seems what the active Buffalo LCN or the active members of the inactive Buffalo LCN are engaged in and around the drug trade. Buffalo, economically isn't the city that it once was that would today warrant a local family, however they next to Detroit are one of the few border-city Families in the USA. Seems like these active Buffalo LCN'ers of the inactive Buffalo Family are well placed between the GTA and NYC underworld to play a significant role.

I forgot to add Chris, I think it was antimafia who made the argument.... one of the reasons I backed off that a little, was that he made a compelling argument that coke doesnt travel from Canada to the US.

Then I found out the Viokis had the connections to Colombia, this is when I started to believe the Bonnanos wanted to access these connections.....